Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version
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Are you a bunch of christians desiring to follow Jesus or a bunch of people wanting to play games, and claim deep hurt because someone suggests you take this position and not that.
The words grow up come to mind, and do you really think you are that right or that important.
You are going to take me to court because I said you take a calvanist position or this view of Jesus's words ignores obedience.
If this is the level of peoples spirituality, I understand why the church gets walked all over and confused.
You, meaning all those who fling around, "I am so insulted, you dared to suggest I held this doctrinal position"
need to get a grip.
When I am called of satan, unsaved, a blind wretched hypocrite who is doomed to hell, and you complain that I am trying to understand what you believe and discuss problems, the reaction I get which I do nothing about other than say, a bit harsh, but God bless you, may you find His love and joy in your life.
But thankyou seriously for teaching me grace and love. You say I am full of pride, puffed up, yet I listen to you, read your words and try and understand you. That in Christ I am called to do. I know you are the tip of the iceburg, and there are far far worse people who would kill me if they could. So blessing to you, for your patience and endurance to people such as me. we are very dumb... a fool for Christ I think the term is.
The words grow up come to mind, and do you really think you are that right or that important.
You are going to take me to court because I said you take a calvanist position or this view of Jesus's words ignores obedience.
If this is the level of peoples spirituality, I understand why the church gets walked all over and confused.
You, meaning all those who fling around, "I am so insulted, you dared to suggest I held this doctrinal position"
need to get a grip.
When I am called of satan, unsaved, a blind wretched hypocrite who is doomed to hell, and you complain that I am trying to understand what you believe and discuss problems, the reaction I get which I do nothing about other than say, a bit harsh, but God bless you, may you find His love and joy in your life.
But thankyou seriously for teaching me grace and love. You say I am full of pride, puffed up, yet I listen to you, read your words and try and understand you. That in Christ I am called to do. I know you are the tip of the iceburg, and there are far far worse people who would kill me if they could. So blessing to you, for your patience and endurance to people such as me. we are very dumb... a fool for Christ I think the term is.
How many times does a believer need to confess before GOD forgives them?
I don't have to perform a so called spiritual REQUIREMENT which IMO is religious at best.
Be righteous conscious knowing GOD forgave you once and for all.
GOD Is a Spirit and those who worship him must worship him In spirit and In TRUTH.
Does performing a so called spiritual requirement mean "truth"?
Doesn't the bible say those born of GOD cannot sin?
Doesn't the bible say the spirit Is saved and sealed?
I don't have to perform a so called spiritual REQUIREMENT which IMO is religious at best.
Be righteous conscious knowing GOD forgave you once and for all.
GOD Is a Spirit and those who worship him must worship him In spirit and In TRUTH.
Does performing a so called spiritual requirement mean "truth"?
Doesn't the bible say those born of GOD cannot sin?
Doesn't the bible say the spirit Is saved and sealed?
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Let me summarise a justification from Grace7x77 of his view. You have to label every word in scripture, legalistic or grace filled. If it is legalistic or old covenant, you ignore it, if it is grace filled, you accept it.
The problem with this approach is called self fulfilling prophecy. If you take any beliefs, and split them into two groups, acceptable or rejected, you are creating your own belief system. Surprisingly everything you select agrees with your position because you have already pre-selected it. This is called selection bias and it proves nothing.
We have shown Jesus's words, like the Lords prayer is for believers to follow. But the extreme grace group say no.
Why is it for believers? Because Jesus is teaching basic spiritual and emotional realities. These are even obvious outside of faith. What matters above all else is your heart, the core of who you are, how you feel and react, not just how you appear.
This is truth and life. Yet extreme grace will say this is legalism. Now the argument goes this is a lie. Not because it is not true, but because it creates the impression they are wrong. All that is cared about is what is of grace. The rest is just given by the wrong spirit, and evil.
Now I have met this thinking before, in Islam. If you quote the statement of the Koran to show some real life realities, you are then satan, because if it contradicts their view of Islam it must be evil, even if it comes from the Koran.
Now I know you will not accept this truth, because that is the strength of the emotional position. It is destroying the ability to see other points of view which might change your perspective, because perspectives are labeled good and evil, rather than just being perspectives, some of which are helpful and some not so, but you only know which to take once you look at each one and apply your understanding in the Lord. Truth does not fear perspectives, it overcomes them, or shows which are are value. I wonder how many follow the truth, Jesus, and can walk in this reality.
The problem with this approach is called self fulfilling prophecy. If you take any beliefs, and split them into two groups, acceptable or rejected, you are creating your own belief system. Surprisingly everything you select agrees with your position because you have already pre-selected it. This is called selection bias and it proves nothing.
We have shown Jesus's words, like the Lords prayer is for believers to follow. But the extreme grace group say no.
Why is it for believers? Because Jesus is teaching basic spiritual and emotional realities. These are even obvious outside of faith. What matters above all else is your heart, the core of who you are, how you feel and react, not just how you appear.
This is truth and life. Yet extreme grace will say this is legalism. Now the argument goes this is a lie. Not because it is not true, but because it creates the impression they are wrong. All that is cared about is what is of grace. The rest is just given by the wrong spirit, and evil.
Now I have met this thinking before, in Islam. If you quote the statement of the Koran to show some real life realities, you are then satan, because if it contradicts their view of Islam it must be evil, even if it comes from the Koran.
Now I know you will not accept this truth, because that is the strength of the emotional position. It is destroying the ability to see other points of view which might change your perspective, because perspectives are labeled good and evil, rather than just being perspectives, some of which are helpful and some not so, but you only know which to take once you look at each one and apply your understanding in the Lord. Truth does not fear perspectives, it overcomes them, or shows which are are value. I wonder how many follow the truth, Jesus, and can walk in this reality.
well, hubby and I do very much 'care' what all of our brothers and sisters care about,,.
where ever they are in the most profound journey of their lives/hearts/souls and minds,...
this is our life, this is our gift for living and being given the blessing of being born/reborn .....
we see and witness everyday all of the proof we will ever need of what lengths the lying/false/deceiver
of this world will go to to try and separate us from our Holy Creator and what He requires of us...
satan will and does everything in his power to bring betrayal/deception into our lives so that we will
dis-honor our Saviour....through any means that will entice our spirits to engage such un-holy behavior...
'until our Heavenly Father calls us out of all of all of the wickedness and fills us and teaches us and educates us....
how to 'over-come', we will be a part of the deceived.....
oh what a marvelous journey that He has so lovingly/un-selfishly blessed and given to us.....
are we always going to get everything right, especially in the beginning - of the most awesome things
He so lovingly offers to us???
the answer is obvious to all who come to know Him and truly fall in with Love Him,,
we pray for all of our brothers and sisters whom our Holy Father has called, and for those who are yet to
be the called to be members of His chosen precious family...
where ever they are in the most profound journey of their lives/hearts/souls and minds,...
this is our life, this is our gift for living and being given the blessing of being born/reborn .....
we see and witness everyday all of the proof we will ever need of what lengths the lying/false/deceiver
of this world will go to to try and separate us from our Holy Creator and what He requires of us...
satan will and does everything in his power to bring betrayal/deception into our lives so that we will
dis-honor our Saviour....through any means that will entice our spirits to engage such un-holy behavior...
'until our Heavenly Father calls us out of all of all of the wickedness and fills us and teaches us and educates us....
how to 'over-come', we will be a part of the deceived.....
oh what a marvelous journey that He has so lovingly/un-selfishly blessed and given to us.....
are we always going to get everything right, especially in the beginning - of the most awesome things
He so lovingly offers to us???
the answer is obvious to all who come to know Him and truly fall in with Love Him,,
we pray for all of our brothers and sisters whom our Holy Father has called, and for those who are yet to
be the called to be members of His chosen precious family...
Not answering theology - Let me make one simple statement, you need to have love in your heart, the core of who you are to know Jesus.
Now it is strange to me that any christian would ever have a problem with this sentence, any christian ever.
But then I discovered people who did, who could not face these words.
A whole series of attacking people to try and bring them down has not stopped since.
Now I am a lying, slandering, terrible person, but what I am actually just saying is love matters above anything else.
Now if this message finds such problems among christians, their faith has gone south.
Now it is strange to me that any christian would ever have a problem with this sentence, any christian ever.
But then I discovered people who did, who could not face these words.
A whole series of attacking people to try and bring them down has not stopped since.
Now I am a lying, slandering, terrible person, but what I am actually just saying is love matters above anything else.
Now if this message finds such problems among christians, their faith has gone south.
Scripture says we are to die once and AFTER be judged, not during. He weighs the heart of man and corrects, rebukes, teaches, and trains. Your point is well taken by me, it is indeed hard to give away love, that being Jesus Christ. But being blinded is mentioned in two ways in the Bible; by the nature of sin and by the purposes of God to reconcile man in discipline, human reasoning contorts a grimace to that premise, because in human reasoning man is a being worthy of self government either by way of applying God rightly so, or in way of defying the Devil, for rightness sake... Satan loves that wrong conclusion because it means his lie has worked. He then takes us away and entices us to use that foundation allowing desires and self-consciousness to event himself eventually sins, by way of his control over man outside of Christ.
This is the devil's domain of expertise, this is why we must move forward and upward in our walk toward God using God as our Sword and shield in obedience otherwise we will fall to debate with Satan believing mans worth, and Spiritual Warfare suddenly events a problem, for we are now on shifting sand that Satan can and will have us fall, quickly and relentlessly.. See, it is even in this, that Salvation shows need to be secured by our proper placement in Christ. There is, yet, a prize awaiting Satan after regeneration if he can, after regeneration still get us to step aside from Jesus' victory in us which is guaranteed if we remain in Christ. Satan wants us to prove we are capable of securing it in our own individualism even suggesting we use God as our arsenal, saying God has already secured it so go ahead and let me enter once more to only visit. But if you suggest resting in Christ in a resolved manner allowing God to fight our fights for you watch Satan turn to flaming arrows. If we are hidden in Christ he knows he has no place to debate us, and will begin to shake us by attack, and suggested doubts. If we come out of hiding in Him, Satan begins to again laugh at us, listening to our righteous doctrine as he devours us.
To know Jesus is to know God, to know God is to see yourself as real, as a New Creation fully realized, and fully equipped by God to do good works and stand against the wiles of the devil. Salvation is something Christ Jesus did not us, hence it is forever secure if we believe and receive it, but we are really a people who must love God actually and wholeheartedly or the sin that we let enter us will dagger any godliness in us, while God will want us to let Him smash the sin in us, but it takes our all to secure our will to His surrendering to Christ's rule as He secures His will to ours, in a relationship of growing love -- actually realized. Until we have been grown up in Christ thru the Holy Spirit dying to the right to myself and to have the revelations of God's truths become my own, we are still Satan's hopeful target. If we have in ourselves become, thru Christ possessing us, what Jesus was in thought, and will, and Character secured although out by Christ -- Satan has no hope at all.
God acts in possessing us thru experiences of obedience. When a Christian doesn't have a crisis yet hit him, it may be possible to be about God's moral good, but when a Crisis hits in torrent whirlwind of circumstantial discord, this is when the real Christian vs. the doctrinal Christian separate. Only in Christ thru the Holy Spirit can we Master our stand against a torrent attack of the anti-Christ Spirit. And yet in Christ we can more than survive we can rule in confidence thru any circumstance based on the History of Jesus Christ wrought out in me, leaving me REAL; real to God, real to man in godliness, and real to Satan in my authoritative stance.
You jump to human reasoning in assuming a man would never give up heaven, why would he you say. Yet have you ever known a drug attic? He knows vividly well his faults and bad choices, experientially, but he is a slave to it's demise, a slave even to it's shame. Were you not a victim of this form of control yourself before Christ? When wanting to do a thing you -- became unable to do it consistently? EG I pray you let God rest with you and you with He. He loves us both and wants to show us our path, and the truth therein. God bless you. John 10:10 tells us Satan steals that from us what God has given, along with slaughters, and destroys. He is a Master liar and has been developing his skills way before earth even in that expertise. So, we must remain in the only thing that can not only take on Satan, but has already defeated him; that being Christ Jesus.
This is the devil's domain of expertise, this is why we must move forward and upward in our walk toward God using God as our Sword and shield in obedience otherwise we will fall to debate with Satan believing mans worth, and Spiritual Warfare suddenly events a problem, for we are now on shifting sand that Satan can and will have us fall, quickly and relentlessly.. See, it is even in this, that Salvation shows need to be secured by our proper placement in Christ. There is, yet, a prize awaiting Satan after regeneration if he can, after regeneration still get us to step aside from Jesus' victory in us which is guaranteed if we remain in Christ. Satan wants us to prove we are capable of securing it in our own individualism even suggesting we use God as our arsenal, saying God has already secured it so go ahead and let me enter once more to only visit. But if you suggest resting in Christ in a resolved manner allowing God to fight our fights for you watch Satan turn to flaming arrows. If we are hidden in Christ he knows he has no place to debate us, and will begin to shake us by attack, and suggested doubts. If we come out of hiding in Him, Satan begins to again laugh at us, listening to our righteous doctrine as he devours us.
To know Jesus is to know God, to know God is to see yourself as real, as a New Creation fully realized, and fully equipped by God to do good works and stand against the wiles of the devil. Salvation is something Christ Jesus did not us, hence it is forever secure if we believe and receive it, but we are really a people who must love God actually and wholeheartedly or the sin that we let enter us will dagger any godliness in us, while God will want us to let Him smash the sin in us, but it takes our all to secure our will to His surrendering to Christ's rule as He secures His will to ours, in a relationship of growing love -- actually realized. Until we have been grown up in Christ thru the Holy Spirit dying to the right to myself and to have the revelations of God's truths become my own, we are still Satan's hopeful target. If we have in ourselves become, thru Christ possessing us, what Jesus was in thought, and will, and Character secured although out by Christ -- Satan has no hope at all.
God acts in possessing us thru experiences of obedience. When a Christian doesn't have a crisis yet hit him, it may be possible to be about God's moral good, but when a Crisis hits in torrent whirlwind of circumstantial discord, this is when the real Christian vs. the doctrinal Christian separate. Only in Christ thru the Holy Spirit can we Master our stand against a torrent attack of the anti-Christ Spirit. And yet in Christ we can more than survive we can rule in confidence thru any circumstance based on the History of Jesus Christ wrought out in me, leaving me REAL; real to God, real to man in godliness, and real to Satan in my authoritative stance.
You jump to human reasoning in assuming a man would never give up heaven, why would he you say. Yet have you ever known a drug attic? He knows vividly well his faults and bad choices, experientially, but he is a slave to it's demise, a slave even to it's shame. Were you not a victim of this form of control yourself before Christ? When wanting to do a thing you -- became unable to do it consistently? EG I pray you let God rest with you and you with He. He loves us both and wants to show us our path, and the truth therein. God bless you. John 10:10 tells us Satan steals that from us what God has given, along with slaughters, and destroys. He is a Master liar and has been developing his skills way before earth even in that expertise. So, we must remain in the only thing that can not only take on Satan, but has already defeated him; that being Christ Jesus.
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me."
John 14:6
You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor.
Lev 19:15
Know therefore, that the Lord your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness; for you are a stubborn people.
Deut 9:6
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well.
Matt 6:33
Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom 6:16
Are we slave to sin or to obedience which leads to righteousness.
And the obedience Paul is asking us to follow? To obey Jesus.
To follow, to do what He asks us to do, and to learn what he asks us to learn.
There is nothing difficult in this because we know Jesus died on the cross to save us from Hell, the 2nd death, the destruction of our souls.
Odd how what God simply says is so difficult for those who kick against the goads, and will not believe God loves them as they are and wants them to move and learn. But this is too hard for them to believe because they have been trying to walk in this reality alone, in their own strength without the Lord and failed. But why should anyone believe anything has changed because still they refuse to read what He spoke and showed before all in the gospels our calling.
John 14:6
You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor.
Lev 19:15
Know therefore, that the Lord your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness; for you are a stubborn people.
Deut 9:6
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well.
Matt 6:33
Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom 6:16
Are we slave to sin or to obedience which leads to righteousness.
And the obedience Paul is asking us to follow? To obey Jesus.
To follow, to do what He asks us to do, and to learn what he asks us to learn.
There is nothing difficult in this because we know Jesus died on the cross to save us from Hell, the 2nd death, the destruction of our souls.
Odd how what God simply says is so difficult for those who kick against the goads, and will not believe God loves them as they are and wants them to move and learn. But this is too hard for them to believe because they have been trying to walk in this reality alone, in their own strength without the Lord and failed. But why should anyone believe anything has changed because still they refuse to read what He spoke and showed before all in the gospels our calling.
The biggest kick in this philosophy is the denial it is a philosophy or a religion.
Now the biggest religious trick used is called labelling. This works by not addressing an issue but labelling it as wrong or censored and what is acceptable and ok. In Islam this is called haram - banned, and hallel - ok.
And here we have a religious group saying this is exactly what you should do. And why? Because demons are everywhere, speaking through christians, unbelievers, in fact everyone, and you cannot trust anyone except the chosen.
Now who is the one person who is the Lord? Jesus.
Yet His words though eternal should be ignored if aimed at a particular audience not christians.
It is not the meaning that is important just the listen to this and not that.
This is what would be described as delegating authority to a teacher and not giving it to the Lord. It is just like saying the Pope is Christ on earth, so just do what he tells you. Trouble is Christ is our Lord and His words trump everything else.
So rather than not being religious and full of philosophy, this is exactly what is being preached and is no different from other religious groups of the past. Now if you cannot see this reality, then your use of english should be questioned or logic let alone that you have any spiritual authority that is worthwhile listening to.
Now the biggest religious trick used is called labelling. This works by not addressing an issue but labelling it as wrong or censored and what is acceptable and ok. In Islam this is called haram - banned, and hallel - ok.
And here we have a religious group saying this is exactly what you should do. And why? Because demons are everywhere, speaking through christians, unbelievers, in fact everyone, and you cannot trust anyone except the chosen.
Now who is the one person who is the Lord? Jesus.
Yet His words though eternal should be ignored if aimed at a particular audience not christians.
It is not the meaning that is important just the listen to this and not that.
This is what would be described as delegating authority to a teacher and not giving it to the Lord. It is just like saying the Pope is Christ on earth, so just do what he tells you. Trouble is Christ is our Lord and His words trump everything else.
So rather than not being religious and full of philosophy, this is exactly what is being preached and is no different from other religious groups of the past. Now if you cannot see this reality, then your use of english should be questioned or logic let alone that you have any spiritual authority that is worthwhile listening to.
I propose that we forgive their malice and slanderous posts and share scriptures that show where they are in error.....sometimes when the knife is to the throat of a "sacred cow" of some religious heresies....the offended get their gander up!......but it gives us a chance to preach the gospel of Christ...because of that I rejoice!
I say we listen to Jesus and forgive those who sin against us. Great is the reward.
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Mat 5:12
I say we listen to Jesus and forgive those who sin against us. Great is the reward.
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Mat 5:12
This is the problem with not knowing Greek. You fail to understand the subtleties of things like conditional sentences.
"ἐὰν δὲ ἐν τῷ φωτὶ περιπατῶμεν ὡς αὐτός ἐστιν ἐν τῷ φωτί, κοινωνίαν ἔχομεν μετ’ ἀλλήλων καὶ τὸ αἷμα Ἰησοῦ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ καθαρίζει ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἁμαρτίας." 1 John 1:7 Greek
This is a third class present conditional sentence, as evidenced by "if" being the word ean, ἐὰν in the Greek, which is a combination of the "ei" and the particle "an." The verb is in the subjunctive - tepipatomen περιπατῶμεν. Instead of saying that something about a specific event that might happen - If... then, it is stating a general truth, an axiomatic truth. The subjunctive is appropriate because the truth of the statement is timeless.
So no to IF being conditional in this case. It in fact describes the truth of walking with God, which leads to the timeless truth of fellowship with one another and being cleansed from all sin by the blood of Jesus Christ.
"ἐὰν δὲ ἐν τῷ φωτὶ περιπατῶμεν ὡς αὐτός ἐστιν ἐν τῷ φωτί, κοινωνίαν ἔχομεν μετ’ ἀλλήλων καὶ τὸ αἷμα Ἰησοῦ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ καθαρίζει ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἁμαρτίας." 1 John 1:7 Greek
This is a third class present conditional sentence, as evidenced by "if" being the word ean, ἐὰν in the Greek, which is a combination of the "ei" and the particle "an." The verb is in the subjunctive - tepipatomen περιπατῶμεν. Instead of saying that something about a specific event that might happen - If... then, it is stating a general truth, an axiomatic truth. The subjunctive is appropriate because the truth of the statement is timeless.
So no to IF being conditional in this case. It in fact describes the truth of walking with God, which leads to the timeless truth of fellowship with one another and being cleansed from all sin by the blood of Jesus Christ.
This is called "pulling things out of context." I distinctly remember that I was asking the question, because I was puzzled because you didn't seem dumb. But I just didn't have any other explanation for what you were doing. Well, I do believe I did offer another explanation.
So if this is how your pull things out of context in a mere silly post on a Christian website, it frightens me what you do with the Bible. Well, not actually! Because I have seen your theology, and it is obviously not formed from an understanding of the whole Bible.
And I have seen your posts which so rarely post the Bible, so I know you are not well informed on anything Biblcal.
I did apologize, as I recall. If I offended you, but that was not mentioned in your out of context quote. Which I am not bothering to go back and find.
I guess I'm not privy on the situation of the group. But the way I understand the Christian faith is that anything that upholds the unadulterated Gospel is the same faith we've had for 2000 years. Everything else, while either true or false, does not make or break someone's Christianity. That goes for laws, regulations, theology, eschatology, etc. As long as we both share the same Gospel we need to learn to get along.
G
Then listen to Him please. John 5:24 ,This is a point of doctrine and we need to pay careful attention to it. Why?
Because the kingdom of darkness will attack it, and the kingdom of darkness will pay special attention to it because it is crucial for believers to KNOW it....
John 5:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
It is crucial that we KNOW we have eternal life(Loss of salvation doesn't KNOW we have eternal life.) It is crucial that we KNOW we do not come into judgement(loss of salvation doesn't KNOW judgement is impossible.) It is crucial that we KNOW we have passed out of death and into life( loss of salvation doesn't KNOW we have passed out of death.)
This verse is a point of doctrine "truly,truly." And it is eternal security. This verse is a verse for believers who are already saved. If we believe what the Father tells us...............we will believe in our eternal security.
Because the kingdom of darkness will attack it, and the kingdom of darkness will pay special attention to it because it is crucial for believers to KNOW it....
John 5:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
It is crucial that we KNOW we have eternal life(Loss of salvation doesn't KNOW we have eternal life.) It is crucial that we KNOW we do not come into judgement(loss of salvation doesn't KNOW judgement is impossible.) It is crucial that we KNOW we have passed out of death and into life( loss of salvation doesn't KNOW we have passed out of death.)
This verse is a point of doctrine "truly,truly." And it is eternal security. This verse is a verse for believers who are already saved. If we believe what the Father tells us...............we will believe in our eternal security.
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