Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

[PeacefulWarrior]

there is one difference I think that divides us all.

Is Gods salvation eternal. Secure, and never ending. (I call it gospel security in Christ)

Can Gods gift be lost. based on all kinds of differing criteria based on who you talk to (I call it gospel insecurity in self)

These are two different gospels. Paul said in galations 1. there is one gospel. anyone who teaches a different (in kind) is teaching a false gospel. And should be damned, That is a stern word.

so we both can not be teaching the way to heaven, since we teach different gospels.

Al the rest of the stuff (tongues, and times, how old the earth is, when the rapture will be, Is the KJV perfect etc etc, are fine to talk about. But have no salvic significance.

It seems both "groups" agree that there cannot be two gospels.
The way I see it, you're both splitting hairs--of the same gospel.


"Is Gods salvation eternal. Secure, and never ending. (I call it gospel security in Christ)"


"Can Gods gift be lost. based on all kinds of differing criteria based on who you talk to (I call it gospel insecurity in self)"

What I see here is a paradox: God's salvation is secure and eternal and cannot be lost. And " ...those who apostatize are simply demonstrating that they are not true believers, and they never were." (Source)

I said this before in response to an earlier post which criticized someone who said salvation can be lost. I didn't put it quite so clearly--I simply said: Perhaps they never actually had salvation.

So, do we have any here in this thread who believe salvation can be lost?

 

[Gr8grace]

Acts 16:31 (ESV)

31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

"...will be..." looks like future-tense to me.

Is "the moment we believe we are saved" accurate?

Yes, "will be saved" is a logical future.

You need to look at the aorist tense of believe.And from unbelief to belief

The moment we believe(active voice/our volition) He saves(passive voice/His volition) us.

Aorist: [A; aor] Expresses action as a point and not over a period of time. "I washed" The action of the aorist tense may be represented by a dot (•). The aorist presents the action as attained.

William H. Davis, Beginner's Grammar of the Greek New Testament and H. E. Dana and J. R. Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament.

 

[PeterJens]

I am not interacting with them until they repent ( which means answering any questions ).. Both of the main ones here I have tried multiple times to get them to discuss things in a non name-calling way to stop the malice and slander but it was turned down..

"until they repent" - I think this means we need to change our minds and accept grace7x77 is right in what he is sharing.

He thinks we have a religious spirit which he has upset, and we need to get free of this. The problem is he is the one with the religious spirit, and he is the one condemning normal christians of being lost in legalism, or as he would say the old covenant. In his view, the old testament is lying about God in Christ, and the verses of grace should replace the war like passages of God.

The problem is this is not the Holy Spirit talking or something that should be respected because it is calling God a liar.

God has not changed from the garden of eden till now.

And I am commanded to honour the Lord and Him alone. It would be a sin to say God is lying, that Jesus is anything else than a reflection of Gods heart, which rings throughout the old testament into the new.

Now for grace7x77 to humble himself and declare his actual beliefs would be to admit he is open to criticism and failure, both of which he is not. He can show this is not a fair point by sharing openly and honestly like we do.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Yes, "will be saved" is a logical future.

You need to look at the aorist tense of believe.And from unbelief to belief

The moment we believe(active voice/our volition) He saves(passive voice/His volition) us.

Aorist: [A; aor] Expresses action as a point and not over a period of time. "I washed" The action of the aorist tense may be represented by a dot (•). The aorist presents the action as attained.

William H. Davis, Beginner's Grammar of the Greek New Testament and H. E. Dana and J. R. Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament.

Makes sense. Thanks for sharing!

The moment we believe, we are saved instantly. As for those who apostatize, they never truly believed.

It seems this small statement which closely resembles a paradox is the culprit for all of the disagreement.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

He thinks we have a religious spirit which he has upset, and we need to get free of this. The problem is he is the one with the religious spirit, and he is the one condemning normal christians of being lost in legalism, or as he would say the old covenant. In his view, the old testament is lying about God in Christ, and the verses of grace should replace the war like passages of God.

The problem is this is not the Holy Spirit talking or something that should be respected because it is calling God a liar.

God has not changed from the garden of eden till now.

This is what the gnostics did. They rejected the GOD of the old covenant because they thought he was the one responsible for holding people in bondage through religion and law. Salvation was realizing this and rejecting all form of law.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Thank you..I appreciate that...

I am not interacting with them until they repent ( which means answering any questions ).. Both of the main ones here I have tried multiple times to get them to discuss things in a non name-calling way to stop the malice and slander but it was turned down...so we are left with this scenario now...it's all good..The gospel of the grace of our Lord is getting out...of that we all rejoice!...

"until they repent" - I think this means we need to change our minds and accept grace7x77 is right in what he is sharing.

He thinks we have a religious spirit which he has upset, and we need to get free of this. The problem is he is the one with the religious spirit, and he is the one condemning normal christians of being lost in legalism, or as he would say the old covenant. In his view, the old testament is lying about God in Christ, and the verses of grace should replace the war like passages of God.

The problem is this is not the Holy Spirit talking or something that should be respected because it is calling God a liar.

God has not changed from the garden of eden till now.

And I am commanded to honour the Lord and Him alone. It would be a sin to say God is lying, that Jesus is anything else than a reflection of Gods heart, which rings throughout the old testament into the new.

Now for grace7x77 to humble himself and declare his actual beliefs would be to admit he is open to criticism and failure, both of which he is not. He can show this is not a fair point by sharing openly and honestly like we do.

I agree.

It seems both of you each feel the other has been offensive toward the other.

I pray this can be overcome so that we may continue to make progress in our discussion.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So, do we have any here in this thread who believe salvation can be lost?

Of course it can be lost. If not, explain how someone who worships GOD, but doesn't do the will of GOD will be saved.

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21​

 

[PeterJens]

So, do we have any here in this thread who believe salvation can be lost?

My position is simple. People can taste the gospel and then walk away. People do this all the time.
I do not know where they saved and lost it, or never really grasped it in the first place.

I recognise this reality, and walk in it. How they stand before God is between them and the Lord.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

This is what the gnostics did. They rejected the GOD of the old covenant because they thought he was the one responsible for holding people in bondage through religion and law. Salvation was realizing this and rejecting all form of law.

Maybe so--but let's let the dust settle a bit and see how Grace777x70 responds.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Acts 16:31 proves this. the moment we believe we are saved. And if we were not.....................we couldn't live the Christian way of life.

That's what I would call selective, partial exegesis. Reading into it what you want to see. That verse is conditioned by this one.

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21​

 

[FreeNChrist]

Of course it can be lost. If not, explain how someone who worships GOD, but doesn't do the will of GOD will be saved.

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21​

Welcome to the real world PeacefulWarrior.

 

[FreeNChrist]

My position is simple. People can taste the gospel and then walk away. People do this all the time.
I do not know where they saved and lost it, or never really grasped it in the first place.

I recognise this reality, and walk in it. How they stand before God is between them and the Lord.

Tasting is not swallowing.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Of course it can be lost. If not, explain how someone who worships GOD, but doesn't do the will of GOD will be saved.

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21​

If a person is not doing the will of God, they never truly believed.

Your verse above supports my statement as well as Matt 7:22-23.

Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Maybe so--but let's let the dust settle a bit and see how Grace777x70 responds.

There's no maybe to it. And he will never acknowledge the obvious similarity.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

My position is simple. People can taste the gospel and then walk away. People do this all the time.
I do not know where they saved and lost it, or never really grasped it in the first place.

I recognise this reality, and walk in it. How they stand before God is between them and the Lord.

My position is the same.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

There's no maybe to it. And he will never acknowledge the obvious similarity.

I don't like absolutes unless we're referring to God.

Give the man a chance.

...and regardless--what's it matter if he never acknowledges the similarity? Because you think he's guilty of this line of thinking? If this is so, how are you bringing this to his attention? Gently or no?

 

[Grace777x70]

Tasting is not swallowing.

There is a difference between tasting and drinking......Jesus knew of this concept too..

Matthew 27:34 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.

Matthew 26:27-28 (NASB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you;

[SUP]28 [/SUP] for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

John 7:37-38 (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

[SUP]38 [/SUP] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

John 4:14 (NASB)

[SUP]14 [/SUP] but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If a person is not doing the will of God, they never truly believed.

Your verse above supports my statement as well as Matt 7:22-23.

Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

That's your opinion, and even if true, what relevance does it have? The people in that verse were very surprised that they were being rejected, so they very obviously thought that they were doing the will of GOD. What practical relevance does the claim that they never truly believed have? They believed they believed.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

That's your opinion, and even if true, what relevance does it have? The people in that verse were very surprised that they were being rejected, so they very obviously thought that they were doing the will of GOD. What practical relevance does the claim that they never truly believed have? They believed they believed.

I'm trying to direct back to this statement:

The moment we believe, we are saved instantly. As for those who apostatize, they never truly believed.

This is the point where you and I seem to have slightly different understandings. Someone can believe they believe until they're blue in the face (and hair) and they can have a television preaching ministry. They might be baptising and outwardly doing things which appear to be good works to man--but God sees the heart.

God knows if they truly believed or not. At Judgement, God will separate the wheat from the chaff -- the chaff are those who appeared they believed, but did not.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It seems both "groups" agree that there cannot be two gospels.
The way I see it, you're both splitting hairs--of the same gospel.


"Is Gods salvation eternal. Secure, and never ending. (I call it gospel security in Christ)"


"Can Gods gift be lost. based on all kinds of differing criteria based on who you talk to (I call it gospel insecurity in self)"

What I see here is a paradox: God's salvation is secure and eternal and cannot be lost. And " ...those who apostatize are simply demonstrating that they are not true believers, and they never were." (Source)

I said this before in response to an earlier post which criticized someone who said salvation can be lost. I didn't put it quite so clearly--I simply said: Perhaps they never actually had salvation.

So, do we have any here in this thread who believe salvation can be lost?

Yes we do. Quite a few.

I will not judge though, and just let them answer