Paster Women?

[jsr1221]

All this is about paste? So women aren't allowed to use glue? I guess kindergarten teachers better start redoing activities.

 

[coby]

I assume nothing about bible doctrine, nor do I conclude anything based on "my interpretation".
It isn't my interpretation. The bible is not subject to private interpretation. Its meaning is the same for all of us.
I read and pray daily. What I know about Gods word His spirit reveals to me.

And I have never tried to stop a woman from preaching. It is disingenuous for you to suggest that I did or do.
I have brought bible, and bible only to this topic.

For the life of me I can't figure out why I keep dropping back in on it. I guess it's kind of like a trainwreck, just human nature to gawk at the mess.
It has turned into a bunch of glad handing and back slapping by people that discount Paul's authority.
If there is one thing I don't get about people that claim to be christians, it is that they accept what Christ said when it's in red, but they summarily dismiss it when Paul repeats Christ's instruction to him on what to preach.
They think part of the bible is good, but 3 pages later it is all about ancient custom or how the church supposedly was then, that it has no bearing or meaning for them now. They include the scriptures about all scripture being profitable for doctrine..well, unless it benefits their particular slant.
While I am sometimes amazed at the hypocrisy, I remember the same attitude put obama in the white house and endorses hillary.

Where is it in the law that they have to be silent? If it has to be Sola Scriptura the O.T. can't be left out.

 

[kaylagrl]

I didn't like the article. Uses tactics seen in this thread based on emotion and not logic or clear understanding of opposing sides position.

Well it depends on what side of the fence you sit on. I thought it was a good article and brought up some good questions and points.

 

[hornetguy]

It's from the Bible hornetguy....and the other two can be answered from the Bible too.

However folks forget that Satan used the Bible to tempt Jesus in the desert. It takes more than words to understand God's will..it takes His Holy Spirit.

Where does it say that? I need to read that again, if I missed it the first time.

If the Bible is not for private/personal interpretation, then what should teachers/evangelists/preachers do? Stand in front of their crowd and simply read scripture, then sit down? (do medieval Catholic churches come to mind here?)

If there is no private interpretation of what is written, then why don't we all just read our own Bibles and not even HAVE any teaching?

This makes absolutely no sense to me.

It takes more than words to understand God's will..it takes His Holy Spirit

Which is what I said, I believe.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

I assume nothing about bible doctrine, nor do I conclude anything based on "my interpretation".
It isn't my interpretation. The bible is not subject to private interpretation. Its meaning is the same for all of us.
I read and pray daily. What I know about Gods word His spirit reveals to me.

And I have never tried to stop a woman from preaching. It is disingenuous for you to suggest that I did or do.
I have brought bible, and bible only to this topic.

For the life of me I can't figure out why I keep dropping back in on it. I guess it's kind of like a trainwreck, just human nature to gawk at the mess.
It has turned into a bunch of glad handing and back slapping by people that discount Paul's authority.
If there is one thing I don't get about people that claim to be christians, it is that they accept what Christ said when it's in red, but they summarily dismiss it when Paul repeats Christ's instruction to him on what to preach.
They think part of the bible is good, but 3 pages later it is all about ancient custom or how the church supposedly was then, that it has no bearing or meaning for them now. They include the scriptures about all scripture being profitable for doctrine..well, unless it benefits their particular slant.
While I am sometimes amazed at the hypocrisy, I remember the same attitude put obama in the white house and endorses hillary.

Hi Phil, My comment was in response to Roger and not you--my mistake. Please forgive!

 

[Depleted]

When I was living in NYC, I had a disagreement with the pastor over something, and eventually left the church because of that. If I had to do it again, I would have stayed a lot longer and tried to pray ti through and listen more for Gods word on it.
But I was somewhat impulsive in those days and still a immature Christian.
So about 12 years later, which was 2014, and I am NYC for a few things, I tend to hop around different church's when I am there, and I decide that ya know, I really ought to go back to that church. I am thinking, it was the first church I was involved in when I got saved, and I have some many fond memories. So i go, and it is not there. So I find out it has moved. So I go to the new building, and it is about 4 times smaller then the old one (they were renting, never owned either) and it is in a entrenched industrial area, and in a basement, no less.
So after I settle in, who do you think is preaching, a married woman who joined the church at about the same time as me. Her husband also had a disagreement with the same pastor I did, and although his wife continued to attend, he stopped, like around 1997 or 1998. She never stopped attending.
And who do you think is giving the sermon in this church was is now about 30% of the size it used to be. But please do not mis-read me, I am not implying church size is the be all and end all of how to determine church success.
So I go online a few months ago, because I like to keep up with them, and now the original pastor has moved out of state, and the church has to move again, because they can not even afford the drastically downsized building they were in.
It actually is a possibility they may have to disband or do a home church.
So Phil, and Chuck, and Elizabeth, and KJV, and Lynn, and whoever else I am missing, coincidence, or is God showing His disapproval?

I never know if God is approving or disapproving. I'm not kidding. Was Jonah's time in a fish's belly approval or disapproval? It got him where God wanted him with the right, (albeit brief), attitude.

All I know is God gets us exactly where he wants us exactly when we need to be there willing to do what we may or may not have wanted to do all along.

If it happens, it's God's will. Pharaoh was God's will. Jonah was God's will. David (Smart David and Dumb David lol) was God's will. Saul (Good Saul and Nuts Saul) was God's will.

Joel Olsteen has a huge church. I already told the story of our old church dying from lack of finances. Are both God's will? Sure, but the outcome may not always be to the good of the people participating.

"And we know that all things work for the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to his purposes."

It always makes me wonder about the ones not called to his purposes.

Maybe you're expecting me to say that church failed because a woman was running it. It may have been shrunken, but it's not over yet. No idea what God's purposes are in the line-by-line. I only know he gets his way and his way is to have himself a people who will worship and adore him eternally.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

I wonder if Phil assumes his interpretation of [1 Cor 14:34 & 1 Tim 2:12] is correct -- or if he concludes his interpretation is correct based on evidence.

Makes me think of the parable in Luke:

49John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." 50But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."


I can hear modern disciples now: "Master, master! We saw a woman preaching and we tried to stop her because she does not follow along with us. But Jesus said, 'Do not hinder her; for she who is not against you is for you.'"

"Phil" here was supposed to be "Roger"...

...my bad.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Wow great resource if one needs to rationalize behavior that excludes God.

I will be cold inside and outside if you reject Gods order in the family or in the church. Broken families are the result of the curse of sin. Broken churches are resulting from the same cause. God is grieved in both cases.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What is "God's order"?

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:28)

and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one flesh. (Mark 10:8)

 

[AuntieAnt]

I know you arent talking to me and plz forgive me for stepping in but I couldnt help but get the impression that you are saying that because her view of things differs from yours it isnt coming from God.I think she is just as convinced by proof of scripture of her position as you are convinced of your position by your interpretation of scripture.

Being well known for being blunt doesn't change anything. And it certainly doesn't exalt the meekness of Christ Jesus that you are willing to "tick people off". That's not being submissive to Jesus. I think you holding your interpretation of Jesus character over her words is kind of heavy handed isnt it? Jesus was not always meek in character but he was also very bold in his message. She may have used the word blunt but where I sit; I see a very bold young woman who is not going to waiver in her position. I see that as a very good quality.The fact that she may tick people off goes with the territory. Jesus ticked the pharisees off alot and in fact he ticked off the jews who put him on the cross didnt he?

Forgive me for pointing out that what you just said is a big stretch at best! This is not a gathering for worship where we are part of the biblically dictated order of worship.I dont see the elders or the deacons or the pastor at the head of the church .This is a website where Gods kids gather to discuss things of the kingdom. She didnt contradict herself at all .

I think feminism has everything to do with it! Feminism has done loads of damage to the structure of things that God intended. It broke apart the family structure as God intended and it has infiltrated the church..Have we seen an increase of women doing what men did for the most part,for centuries? YES.Perhaps the scripture man thinks what is right in his own mind applies here. It isnt Gods spirit leading women to teach doctrine to men. You were right about one thing though. We do have the world or Christ. Submitting to Gods word leads to men in the pulpit and not women.
And again you make mention of flesh vs spirit because your view of things differs from hers. That is an old hat and it reeks of you virtually saying you are more spiritual than she is. Its kind of like me saying "God told me" or "you just have yet to have the revelation that God gave me " to one up you. Ive heard "christians" say things like this and it speaks pride to me and it tells me they cannot debate scripture without slipping in a super spiritual comment like that.Its not appropriate ever!

Its not about believing women shouldnt teach men but it is what the Bible dictates.

You owe me no apology. You didn't offend me. If you did, I'd have to die to my prideful flesh anyway.

Certainly we should speak Christ crucified with boldness in spite of the possibility someone may be offended. But God knows the heart. If we are promoting ourselves or our beliefs, that's error. If we are promoting Christ Jesus, it would be in love and the fruit of the spirit would be clearly evident.

I was not promoting my opinion. I was saying that Jesus didn't go about preaching against feminism. In fact, He said He didn't come to condemn anyone or go around labeling sinners like some do in this forum. That was the Pharisees' doing, constantly picking out splinters in other people's eyes but they themselves with huge logs of pride and vengeance and jealousy in their own eyes.

I'm saying that worldly wisdom, no matter how intelligent and reasonable it sounds, is error. It's not my belief, it's God's Truth. I don't know what your heart is hearing. In fact, I don't even know what you are defending. Don't you also agree that worldly wisdom is not God's truth?

Proverbs 3:7
Do not be wise in your own eyes.

Isaiah 5:12
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes And clever in their own sight!

James 3:15
This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic.

I Corinthians 2:1-14
And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

I Timothy 6:20-21
O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"-- which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith Grace be with you.

I Corinthians 3:20
The Lord knows the reasoning of the wise, that they are useless.

 

[notuptome]

What is "God's order"?

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:28)

and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one flesh. (Mark 10:8)

You have taken these verses places they we never intended to go. Completely errant applications.

Adam was created first then eve was taken from his side to be a help meet for him.

Gods order in the church is for the man to lead. Priestly duties are the responsibility of the man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Depleted]

I know this is somewhat off subject, but this could tie into a woman pastor. In that God has His way, and We have ours. And sometimes we do not interpret His ways probably, or we are sometimes not sensitive to what He is telling us.
Is it an indictment on ALL the churches that they rarely deviate from the set pattern of worship, and sermon?
Is the charge at large guilty of being insensitive to the Holy Spirit. Sometimes I just literally cry when I sense the Holy Spirit wants something different on a given Sunday.
I just can't believe that a Spirit filled church will not have a departure from that routine. Not even once ?
How about a service with just praise and worship. A service where the Holy Spirit prompts the congregation to give testimony? Or just to pray for a particular issue?
Not even once? God is a God that does new things.
God had a donkey talk, He converted a murderer into the greatest apostle of his day, He does things which we can not predict or fathom. So a donkey can speak, but a woman can't?
He can't be boxed in, unless the Spirit is being ignored, that is.

(This is a real question, not a scold.)

As for the way I see it, haven't I already covered that? I just reread how I explained our governing system in my denom.

I was a part of Mercy Ministries, which was a title given (we're big into naming and giving titles to stuff lol) for the small group of us who kept open communications among the different ministries within the local Presbyteries. (The "local presbytery," in my case, are all the within-our-branch-of-Presbyterianism in the Greater Philadelphia area churches. Something like 6-9 million people live in or around Philly, so the local presby covered 17 churches -- back then -- in southeastern PA and southwestern NJ. One is massive, but it was broken up into five home churches so people get to know others in their area in the church and city. About a dozen are normal sized, establish churches. The rest are church plantings, so small and either growing or not, but they are firmly planted, so most grow and remain.) So, the massive one has a bunch of ministries going on that have grown big enough that some of them are they're their own non-profit. (My personal favorite is one that helps people with sexual addiction problems. Anyone from people who hop from bed to bed, to people caught up in the LBGT community -- even to giving people with AIDs food, companionship, and the gospel -- to people caught in the loop of masterbating.) But the normal sized churches have their own ministries too. I remember the one in NJ had a group of teens who worked all the school year to raise money to spend 2-3 weeks in Jamaica helping the needy down there. (The Jamaican government doesn't have government assistances like the US has, so the poorer people really need all the help they can get.) But, those two ministries and all the other ministries are based out of their own church, so if you're on the Main Line (the area where the middle-upper and upper-upper class like to live), but want to help people with sexual addictions, you probably want to help through that one ministry from the massive church. Even if you want to start one for your church, where better to learn how to do it than an already-proven ministry?

What if you don't know that ministry exists? Starting from scratch takes a long time, and that ministry is so established it has all the degreed people, counselors, and avenues needed to distribute the food to those who can't cook for themselves anymore.

That's what my job was. My little group had a newsletter that went out to all the different churches to let the people in the congregation know where to go to help out with where God placed their hearts for ministry. I don't know if it's a gift, but I have the background, the degree, and the passion to write, so I was the one who gathered the info, did the interviews, and then wrote the story for the newsletter. (The two guys were the smart ones who knew which church had which ministry, who to contact, what they needed, and then knew the elders to talk to to know we existed. I was new Presbyterian, so I really knew nothing about any of it.)

One talent I don't have is public speaking. (Girl. Presbyterian, so what were the chances of me speaking in front of a congregation? I thought I was safe. lol) Ends up, they made me do that too on occasion. Give a talk about who we are and what we were up to either before the service or before the sermon.

Just because my denom aren't into women pastors doesn't mean we women are silent, even during service. Just during the sermon, in which case, so are the guys.

Funny though. I became friends with the women who ran the Disability ministry. We share the writing skill set. (We also share opinionated very well. lol) She's as terrified as I am to speak in public, but she got stuck with that job once a month, at least. Not only did she have to go around to all 17 churches in the area to get people thinking about what disabled people need and how they can establish their own disability ministry, she became nationally known, so had to go to the big presbytery gathering once a year. And then different churches across the country invited her to go to their church.

(She has Lyme Disease, so is confined to a wheelchair, and can become too weak to do anything for weeks at a time, so I have always been impressed she had the get-up-and-go to get-up-and-went. Plus her newsletter tended to be 10-15 pages long, and she did all that on her own. Well, maybe her husband helped stuff envelopes, but we're talking 10's of 1000s of envelopes!)

This explains something of why I keep saying pastors is one thing, but any other ministry is fine. We women aren't second class citizens. There's only one thing we can't do -- govern men.

 

[Ariel82]

Most of the good leaders don't claim to govern men either but are very humble and try and follow God's direction,

 

[Depleted]

The scripure says clear: no teaching from woman over man and also no woman Pastor (if a man is there). The problem which we have to day is that people like more to follow the timespirit then the word of God. If you compare the churches and teachings today with the churches and teachings 30 ore 40 years ago then you will see what i mean.

Again, it is not because of that woman are less worth then man, ore are not be able to do it, but because of the Sin of Eva and because the man was build first. Thats why! And this is an order God gave and not a "woman hater" named Paul as many people says.

I honestly don't see how your response had anything to do with what you included in my quote, I don't see why you're telling me this, since I'm against women pastors too, and, honestly? I'm a little bit older than you so remember what church was 30-40 years ago. I don't see that anything has changed since then.

(And I have no idea what timespirit means.)

 

[Ariel82]

You have taken these verses places they we never intended to go. Completely errant applications.

Adam was created first then eve was taken from his side to be a help meet for him.

Gods order in the church is for the man to lead. Priestly duties are the responsibility of the man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Sounds like a new version of the Levite priesthood..

Can you please show,why,those verses would not apply?

If a man and woman are married, are they not one flesh?

If a woman can't preach according to not being the husband of one wife, then why are single men allowed to be pastors?

 

[Depleted]

I've always been a shy person. Standing in front of people was almost distressing to me. But I felt such a call that I felt I had to do it. I felt so bad when I felt the Lord tell me to do something and I resisted. Over the years I learned to just do what He said. I'm not perfect,a long way from it,I'm not particularly gifted or more spiritual than anyone else.But Ive learned to listen when I feel that call.

I'll admit,Ive argued with the Lord. I was in a service in my own church. We were in the worship part of the service. I happened to glance behind me and saw a woman crying,she was several pews back. I continued singing along but after a few minutes I looked back again. The woman really seemed upset. She was someones guest,I didn't know who,and I was annoyed that whoever brought her was not praying with her,she clearly needed it. I told myself to mind my own business. lol And as much as I tried I couldn't let it go. When I turned back the woman was headed for the door. She was behind me,I have no idea how I got to the door first. She had a teen girl with her. She was sobbing and the girl was saying she wanted to leave. I asked the woman if she wanted to go to the alter and her daughter started to freak out,she was determined to leave. I half pushed them down the hall to a Sunday school room. The daughter was demanding to leave.I asked the mother what was going on. She said she had just found out she had a brain tumor. I told the daughter that her mother needed prayer and then I would let them leave. She calmed herself and agreed to stay long enough for her mother to have prayer. Now I didn't pray some powerful,call down the angels prayer,as I said,I'm not that gifted as some folk are. I did the best that I could do under the circumstances. I quietly prayed as I held her hand. As they turned to leave one of the older women of the church came in and sort of took over and then the pastors wife came. Why did I feel such a call? I don't know,I never saw the woman again or knew who brought her. I only did what I felt called to do. Dont ever listen to voices or people that tell you to be silent. If you feel the Holy Spirit and a calling to speak you do it,and do it with boldness. God can and does use women.

First, standing in front of people only merely is "almost distressing?" I almost ran away at my own wedding when I got to the back of the church with Dad and everyone turned around to look at me! (Never imagined that moment, or we would have eloped. lol) I'm terrified if more than two people look at me. So, I'm very impressed your only almost distressed!

Second, trying to avoid doing something out of your comfort zone is arguing with God? Every fiber of my being would be shouting in my head to tell me not to go back to that woman during service. It's just not "normal" and people might look at me. That's me arguing with me. Me arguing with God is more vulnerable than that. (He doesn't yell back. Very disturbing to me. It makes walking back to sit next to a crying woman feel like I'm in my pajamas at home in comparison.)

 

[Depleted]

i think i found a solution.

those who believe a woman shouldn't teach, preach, or lead - attend a local assembly that believes the same.

those who believe a woman can teach, preach, or lead - attend a local assembly that believes the same.

yay!!!! lol

Ummm, that has been my solution for decades, and I recommended it a while ago o this thread. lol

Got any peanut M&M's yet? (I went grocery shopping today and almost bought some, just because we've been talking about them. I'm diabetic, so I didn't. The only reason. lol)

Perchance is this the moment when two sides can agree?

 

[Miri]

I think this is a great article on the topic--what say you?

https://redeeminggod.com/women-to-preach-in-church-or-pastor/
View attachment 146209

Exactly what I was getting at many pages ago

See posts 877 and 1091

Didn't make a difference though as apparently some feel women are
suppose to remain silent everywhere.

 

[Miri]

i think i found a solution.

those who believe a woman shouldn't teach, preach, or lead - attend a local assembly that believes the same.

those who believe a woman can teach, preach, or lead - attend a local assembly that believes the same.

yay!!!! lol

Also make sure it is mandatory to serve up M & Ms lol

 

[Depleted]

77 pages about women that have to shut up.
Now I have this song in my head.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m3TXfuoj6vw

I have my car loaded

full of old women .

When we came on the market

they began to quarrel

Now my whole life I take

no old women in my car.

Hop hop horse .

Hop hop horse .

(patting Coby softly on the head while passing her the peanut M&M's.)

I think there are officially two nutty women on this thread now.

 

[Depleted]

i have plain, peanut, and peanut butter m&ms. lol

They have peanut butter M&M's now? It's been a long time since I've had M&M's.