Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

[PeterJens]

There is a simple concept here.
Lucifer an eternal being who knew God, rebelled, chose to take on the creator.
Think about this. How can a created being get so carried away they think they can overthrow the creator.
That is real pride, and arrogance.

Now people project knowing the Lord means no more rebellion or sin.
But the Lord is the humblest being in the universe. He desires that all might see love and know His nature and turn to Him. Many humans would call this weakness, would mock and scorn, sneer and torture if they could.

Now if rebellion is possible for eternal beings, why not for the saved. Judas tasted of God, and none of the other disciples saw any difference. There are many hidden motives and shut doors in people. Even Abraham until he put Issac on the altar ready to be killed, God was not sure he would go through with it. People talk about certainty, as if actions are predictable before they happen, but this is a supposition. Faith is probably no different. Until the point of testing comes, it may well just be in your head. That is why confession and witnessing as so important. They prove the inward change is real, and the fruit has been born.

 

[PeterJens]

I disagree. A believer can slip into apostasy. And stay there and will be saved.
we are just getting bamboozled about what apostasy looks like.
I will be frank..........Herose and Peter are our poster boys of what real Apostasy looks like. It is not some freak who is foaming at the mouth, naked, and peeing on a cross.
And if we stop and think about it, probably 70 or up to 90% of Christians think like them in todays world..........so we would be eliminating A LOT of people from salvation if one can't go into apostasy as a believer.
I believe our poster boys of apostasy on CC are probably saved, but they have strayed WAY far from the truth and Christ's finished work on the Cross.
This is serious business. It is salvation for those who are not saved and it is spiritual growth and advancement in the Christian way of life at stake.

Let put this simply. Apostacy is not believing in Christ or teaching a heresy that devalues his teaching and role in the life of a believer.

If you say a believers life and practice is he same while some may think people fall away while others say it is impossible, neither position is apostacy because both people have the same fellowship and relationship with Christ.

This is where things change. If you turn repentance into just changing your mind, conviction of sin is either satanic or irrelevant, and the Holy Spirits work is just to point to Jesus, so have changed the faith. Equally if you believe in command theology, that believers have creative authority like God, that is changing the gospel.

Both of these concepts are either apostate or serious error, depending on your view of what is the state of the people involved. Now every new group will always say they have the magic key and the rest are junk, or else why would they hold their position. It does not make it right, but it is predictable.

 

[Budman]

But this is a complete misrepresentation of the false-grace position, which teaches that a person can be saved without doing the will of GOD. When you say false-grace doesn't teach a license to sin, what it really means is that sin has consequences only in this life, but will in no way affect a person's inheritance of eternal life. So in terms of eternal life, false-grace has no restraint against the practice of sin, which is really just an implicit license to sin.

You say doing the will of God is following Christ's commands to the letter.

And yet, HeRose, you don't do the will of God.

I chased you all over the boards with your quote that one must abstain from sin in order to be saved, yet you have admitted you still sin everyday. You finally put me on ignore because you couldn't wiggle out of your hypocrisy.

You are the false-teaching, hypocritical Pharisee here.

 

[PeterJens]

In matthew those who Jesus rejected said "Lord, Lord did we not heal in your name etc"

They very much felt the authority of God flowing through them made them saved. But they were wrong. It was obedience, walking in righteousness, love and purity that mattered most, the deeds that flowed from the heart.

I am surprised those who hold to spiritual authority without real heart change, are so keen to quote this verse that spiritual demonstration of authority is what God wants, and walking in obedience is works and a false gospel. The verse is obviously putting knowing Gods heart is what the Kingdom is about,

"Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be you name, Your Kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

Where in this prayer is miracles and signs and wonders mentioned? Your will be done.

 

[Budman]

Budman - "It wasn't that he was dependent on wealth"

I did not know you knew this young man personally. I created a link to money outside "love of money" on to what do you depend on, God or money. Or who is your master "God" or money?

Jesus said you cannot serve two masters, either you serve God or money. This is about loyalty, dependance, where your heart is. I suggest this is actually a problem for you, which is why you are certain the young man was not dependant on money. But think about when he lived. Being rich he would not have had to work. He could go where he wanted, and live where he wanted. He knew money bought this life style. We have people today who live exactly like this and buy themselves into situations all the time.

The problem is you do not develop the relationship and empathy skills, let alone the understanding of how to work for someone else if you grow up like this. So saying you should give up your wealth was a big, big thing. Or has this background passed you by?

The lesson Jesus was trying to teach was; If you love anything more than you love God, then you are not worthy of Him. The young man made a big show about obeying the Law as the means for his worthiness, but Christ showed it was mere window dressing. The young man's real love was for his wealth - not for God.

 

[gb9]

In matthew those who Jesus rejected said "Lord, Lord did we not heal in your name etc"

They very much felt the authority of God flowing through them made them saved. But they were wrong. It was obedience, walking in righteousness, love and purity that mattered most, the deeds that flowed from the heart.

I am surprised those who hold to spiritual authority without real heart change, are so keen to quote this verse that spiritual demonstration of authority is what God wants, and walking in obedience is works and a false gospel. The verse is obviously putting knowing Gods heart is what the Kingdom is about,

"Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be you name, Your Kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

Where in this prayer is miracles and signs and wonders mentioned? Your will be done.

no one is saying that a person can be saved without heart change. we say that heart change is caused by salvation, not heart change causes salvation. we are saved by grace through faith for works.

 

[PeterJens]

You say doing the will of God is following Christ's commands to the letter.

We are talking about following Christ from the heart, with all your heart, soul and strength.
You want this to be a pharisee hypocritical surface faith so your box of the pharisee works. The idea the Holy Spirit can reach to your inner most being and cleanse and purify you is just too much to accept.

Because all you see is hypocracy in your life does not mean His people cannot walk in real victory.

It is obvious your faith is defeated, a slave to sin. You openly declare that is all there is possible, which is why you say it is a lie to believe Christ with your whole being. Do you not think the apostles after being with Jesus 3 years, giving up everything, seeing Him resurrected were not completely transformed and commited. They went praising God to their deaths, proclaiming His victory. It is why this is a faith of the impossible, a miracle of overcoming. But I see you would prefer the defeat satan whispers in your ear, there is no hope, they are lying. Unfortunately you are calling Jesus a liar when he said "It is finished" salvation is won, the door is open, the purchased people are reborn into a walk of righteousness and purity bought by His blood, and sanctified by faith in His death and resurrection, so that people are transformed into His body, worthy of His name.

 

[Budman]

In matthew those who Jesus rejected said "Lord, Lord did we not heal in your name etc"

They very much felt the authority of God flowing through them made them saved. But they were wrong. It was obedience, walking in righteousness, love and purity that mattered most, the deeds that flowed from the heart.

I am surprised those who hold to spiritual authority without real heart change, are so keen to quote this verse that spiritual demonstration of authority is what God wants, and walking in obedience is works and a false gospel. The verse is obviously putting knowing Gods heart is what the Kingdom is about,

"Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be you name, Your Kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

Where in this prayer is miracles and signs and wonders mentioned? Your will be done.

Pete, Christ is speaking about false-converts there. People who go about doing good things expecting that their works will earn them eternal life. They were never actual born-again believers. And once again, Jesus said the will (work) of God is simply to believe in the one the Father has sent - Him.

Period.

That's the basis for our salvation, and retention of the same.

Then we are given good works to do from God for His glory. Not to keep us in right standing with Him.

 

[Budman]

Because all you see is hypocracy in your life does not mean His people cannot walk in real victory.

Okay Pete, just like with HeRose, I'll call your bluff.

Approximately, how many sins do you commit in a day? A week, month? Year?

Bear in mind, it's not the actual amount that will make you a hypocrite, it's the fact you still sin while claiming to live in "victory" over sin.

 

[PeterJens]

Pete, Christ is speaking about false-converts there. People who go about doing good things expecting that their works will earn them eternal life. They were never actual born-again believers. And once again, Jesus said the will (work) of God is simply to believe in the one the Father has sent - Him.
Period.
That's the basis for our salvation, and retention of the same.
Then we are given good works to do from God for His glory. Not to keep us in right standing with Him.

Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Matt 7:22-23

Read the verse. These people believed they were doing Jesus's work, prophesying in Jesus's name, driving out demons in Jesus's name, performing miracles in Jesus's name.

The criticism was not doing Gods will, and doing evil. So not walking in righteousness, purity and love but in sin.

There is nothing here about what you have described, zero. All you have got is saying walking in obedience is not Gods will, when clearly Jesus says those who obey His words are putting their house upon the rock. You show you love Jesus by obeying His word.

Do Jesus's words mean nothing to you, just your experience of failure leads you to believe you are right. Is Jesus lying?

I am not quoting out of context, or inventing words, or bending scripture. This is as plain as day. Yet you talk as if you are right and Jesus is supporting your ideas, which are the opposite of what Christ is teaching.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So far PW, EG and Phil36 are on board.
I'd really like to see Peter Jens, HRFTD, freenchrist, gr8grace and Grace777x70 join in as well... actually most everyone that keeps this thread alive and kicking ...

Your suggested method is not going to work IMO because people will just frame things the way they want them to be perceived. I suggest that you and PW act as moderators and ask questions that everyone can respond what they believe, and then people can query such individuals for clarity if need be.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your suggested method is not going to work IMO because people will just frame things the way they want them to be perceived. I suggest that you and PW act as moderators and ask questions that everyone can respond what they believe, and then people can query such individuals for clarity if need be.

why is this person here?

I am asking honestly..

 

[Grace777x70]

There is a massive difference between having a zeal for God and thinking that zeal makes you righteous before God.

Romans 10:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

 

[PeterJens]

Okay Pete, just like with HeRose, I'll call your bluff.
Approximately, how many sins do you commit in a day? A week, month? Year?
Bear in mind, it's not the actual amount that will make you a hypocrite, it's the fact you still sin while claiming to live in "victory" over sin.

I do not know. The reason I do not know is because when I feel convicted of something I confess and ask for forgiveness.

The point is simple it is not about a perfect walk, it is about walking with Jesus. Issues will appear, but they are dealt with and worked through. It is our communion that sustains us, and guides us through the Holy Spirit. That is victory over sin.

There is no bluff here or a chalk score card. It is about walking with a clear conscience in love and faith.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Okay Pete, just like with HeRose, I'll call your bluff.

Approximately, how many sins do you commit in a day? A week, month? Year?

Bear in mind, it's not the actual amount that will make you a hypocrite, it's the fact you still sin while claiming to live in "victory" over sin.

This a straw man that you keep throwing out. It has no meaning because as long as a person believes and repents he is being obedient. When a person ceases this obedience, he is no longer doing the will of GOD. If the person's heart becomes hard such that he never repents, and ceases to have faith, then he will be lost.

 

[Grace777x70]

I have found at least 7 things about doing the will of God on this earth now that we are in Christ.

1) That we have eternal life in Christ - John 6:40

2) That we be filled with the Holy Spirit - Eph 5:16-21

3) That we live a pure, disciplined lifestyle - 1 Thess 4:3-4 ( we live out that holiness that is already in us in our new man ..created in Christ in righteousness and holiness )

4) That we are rejoicing in the Lord, praying without ceasing, and grateful - 1 Thess 5:16-18

5) That we be a law-abiding citizen - 1 Peter 2:13-16

6) That we believe and influence others to believe - 2 Peter 3:9

7) That we commit ourselves to God and other believers - 2 Cor 8:5

According to the works-based salvationists...if someone is not joyful one day or didn't pray for a couple of days...or was not grateful for a day or so and they died..then they would go to hell because they didn't do " the will of God"..( see #4 above )....how foolish this nonsense is.

What about #5 above...if you speed and crash your car and die..you go to hell because you were not doing " the will of God"...again the complete foolishness of people that say not doing all the will of God are not saved - without factoring in the finished work of our Lord Jesus for He is our salvation.

The "doing of the will of God" for salvation is to believe on Christ and it is by grace through faith only - no works. Eph 2:8-9

The saint who rests in Christ and in His finished work is the will of God and what appears to be his free choices are actually God's will for him. It's loving God because you know His love for you, doing what is inside of you under His influence. Phil 2:13

 

[PeterJens]

Okay Pete, just like with HeRose, I'll call your bluff.

What is a pure heart? It is being clear of desire. Now desire can rise and you can feed it, but equally you can take away its life and its power disappears.

A slave knows what he is a slave to. My desires are to know Gods will, understand righteousness and purity. Each day I rise, like today and spend a hour thinking about the Lords prayer. I am amazed at how my house group has grown in faith and seen answered prayer, seen peoples lives open up and sharing about who we are.

People are hungry for the King, and what He can show and bring. People burn with passion to help people find life, walk in good things. This is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. It is so much more than counting sin or seeing a stumble as a defeat, rather than a learning experience. You never arrive, there are always new realities and inspirations.

Sometimes I am drained and I need to spend time with God, it is like I am empty, not rejoicing or full of grace. But I know His life will flood my spirit when I bow and pray and spend time with Him. More so than ever.

You think you can encompass truth, yet I hear you life is parched and empty, in need of the in filling of Christ. Why not reach out in faith and ask Jesus to show His ways and His filling?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I do not know. The reason I do not know is because when I feel convicted of something I confess and ask for forgiveness.

The point is simple it is not about a perfect walk, it is about walking with Jesus. Issues will appear, but they are dealt with and worked through. It is our communion that sustains us, and guides us through the Holy Spirit. That is victory over sin.

There is no bluff here or a chalk score card. It is about walking with a clear conscience in love and faith.

And this shows the difference between what you believe (which is biblical) and what they believe. You and I believe that we are saved through obedience. They believe that they are saved by their nature; so best case, obedience is good fruit, but not necessary; worst case, obedience is not at all necessary.

Now the end of the commandment is love out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned: 1 Timothy 1:5​

 

[Grace777x70]

The believers have now a new heart in Christ created in righteousness and holiness:

First it was prophesied in the Old Testament.

Ezekiel 36:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone ( old man ) from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ( new man in Christ )


Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

By grace we have been given a new heart that is obedient.

Romans 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

God cleaned house and moved in. God will not dwell in unrighteousness. God through the Holy Spirit is in our inner man now.

Ephesians 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

God sealed us and gave us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts.

2 Corinthians 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

We have the Spirit of God's Son in our hearts now.Galatians 4:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

God has cleansed our hearts by faith.Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

We love from our hearts now as it is pure.1 Timothy 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

2 Timothy 2:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. ( this is a true grace believer in Christ..hang around them )

1 Peter 3:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.

There are more but this should work to show that the believer has a new heart in Christ.

We still have the flesh to deal with in our bodies and if we are admonished to not to yield to that...but all that is a different subject.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This a straw man that you keep throwing out. It has no meaning because as long as a person believes and repents he is being obedient. When a person ceases this obedience, he is no longer doing the will of GOD. If the person's heart becomes hard such that he never repents, and ceases to have faith, then he will be lost.

So I stop confessing my sins for a few days, that means I am in sin and not doing Gods will in all things?