Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version
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This verse needs to be clarified for a few reasons. It has been used in the past to support that only one person needs to be saved for the household to be saved. This is not supported by the Greek. It also means that WHEN we believe (at some point), then we will be saved)
The concept that if we believe now, we will be saved at some future point, as PW is asking, is not true.
Now, in case anyone thinks I am just making this up as I go along, or that I am consulting obscure or heretical (gnostic?? Not so much) sources, let me put everyone's mind to rest, that anything I post about the Greek is not something I make up on my own. I have a lot of Greek tools (read: books) written and accepted by the best, and most orthodox scholars in the world. These sources are accepted by pretty much anyone who knows anything about Greek, regardless of their doctrine.
Sometimes I have to realize that my thoughts and doctrines on certain subjects need review, when I start reading these sources, and cross checking with each other and the Greek.
So again, not something I have invented on my own. I am always careful to give the source, including the page. I do not take lightly that God seems to have called me here to be able to shed light on the original Greek (not so much Hebrew these days - I sure miss Marc). So sometimes I spend literally hours reading, and studying in order to clarify one point. I also have a lot of commentaries, but I don't generally use them, as they tend to reflect doctrine and opinion in a lot of cases, rather than what the Greek is actually saying.
So, back to PW's question:
"And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:31 ESV
"οἱ δὲ εἶπαν· Πίστευσον ἐπὶ τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν, καὶ σωθήσῃ σὺ καὶ ὁ οἶκός σου." Acts 16:31 Greek
"It is sometimes argued that only the Philippian jailer needed to exercise faith in order for his house to be saved. Such a view is based on the singular verbs, Πίστευσον (believe - Aorist Imperative Active) and σωθήσῃ (will be saved -Future Indicative Passive). Such a notion is foreign to Greek, for in the other instances of a compound subject, with a singular verb, the second nominative was still subject of the verb. Applied here, since the two verbs are linked by kai, (and) there is no reason to treat them differently. Pistis (Faith, belief) is required of the jailer's family if they are to receive soteria (salvation). The reason for the singular every time is evidently that the jailer is present while his family is not. (Paul could not very easily have said, "All of you believe..." when speaking to one man.)
This expanded translation brings this out:
"Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved - and if members of your household believe, they too will be saved." The condition is the same for both and the offer is the same for both."*
* Daniel Wallace - Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics pg, 402.
The concept that if we believe now, we will be saved at some future point, as PW is asking, is not true.
Now, in case anyone thinks I am just making this up as I go along, or that I am consulting obscure or heretical (gnostic?? Not so much) sources, let me put everyone's mind to rest, that anything I post about the Greek is not something I make up on my own. I have a lot of Greek tools (read: books) written and accepted by the best, and most orthodox scholars in the world. These sources are accepted by pretty much anyone who knows anything about Greek, regardless of their doctrine.
Sometimes I have to realize that my thoughts and doctrines on certain subjects need review, when I start reading these sources, and cross checking with each other and the Greek.
So again, not something I have invented on my own. I am always careful to give the source, including the page. I do not take lightly that God seems to have called me here to be able to shed light on the original Greek (not so much Hebrew these days - I sure miss Marc). So sometimes I spend literally hours reading, and studying in order to clarify one point. I also have a lot of commentaries, but I don't generally use them, as they tend to reflect doctrine and opinion in a lot of cases, rather than what the Greek is actually saying.
So, back to PW's question:
"And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:31 ESV
"οἱ δὲ εἶπαν· Πίστευσον ἐπὶ τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν, καὶ σωθήσῃ σὺ καὶ ὁ οἶκός σου." Acts 16:31 Greek
"It is sometimes argued that only the Philippian jailer needed to exercise faith in order for his house to be saved. Such a view is based on the singular verbs, Πίστευσον (believe - Aorist Imperative Active) and σωθήσῃ (will be saved -Future Indicative Passive). Such a notion is foreign to Greek, for in the other instances of a compound subject, with a singular verb, the second nominative was still subject of the verb. Applied here, since the two verbs are linked by kai, (and) there is no reason to treat them differently. Pistis (Faith, belief) is required of the jailer's family if they are to receive soteria (salvation). The reason for the singular every time is evidently that the jailer is present while his family is not. (Paul could not very easily have said, "All of you believe..." when speaking to one man.)
This expanded translation brings this out:
"Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved - and if members of your household believe, they too will be saved." The condition is the same for both and the offer is the same for both."*
* Daniel Wallace - Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics pg, 402.
G
They did believe they were doing the work. That is the problem Peter.
If we have never COMPLETELY trusted Christ for our salvation and have added our works or obedience to our faith for salvation......that will be our appeal to the Lord on Judgement day.
this is what the righteous will do........
New American Standard Bible
"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
If we have never COMPLETELY trusted Christ for our salvation and have added our works or obedience to our faith for salvation......that will be our appeal to the Lord on Judgement day.
this is what the righteous will do........
New American Standard Bible
"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
What came to me was slightly different. When sin does not posses your soul, lusting after anything is so empty. Why would a car or a house, or a powerful job, or a sexual relationship with that woman matter, because you know the King.
When you see people possessed by these dreams destroying the things that matter, it breaks your heart.
Many hate what they do every day and the people they work with. They hate what they fake, the fake life, the fake show, the fake feelings, the fake pretence.
Obedience is not a burden when you see this reality, it is life, there is nothing else. Fear and failure stalk many in their lives, and they literally do not know rest, and die trying to stop what they cannot keep slipping out of their grasp.
So words I am not sure can fully encompass it all, it is for me just walking in the Kingdom.
When you see people possessed by these dreams destroying the things that matter, it breaks your heart.
Many hate what they do every day and the people they work with. They hate what they fake, the fake life, the fake show, the fake feelings, the fake pretence.
Obedience is not a burden when you see this reality, it is life, there is nothing else. Fear and failure stalk many in their lives, and they literally do not know rest, and die trying to stop what they cannot keep slipping out of their grasp.
So words I am not sure can fully encompass it all, it is for me just walking in the Kingdom.
Salvation is by faith alone. I would never say I am saved because I am obedient. I am obedient because I can see life.
I have worked with people who have later died. I have seen people deny life and yet have it taken from them.
I am saved to walk with Jesus. I am walking with Jesus every day. It is not heaven when I die, it is the kingdom of heaven here and now. You talk like this is all a game till you final pass this world, rather than the Holy Spirit is with you now asking you where are you, are you resting in Christ or working out a formula which means you are safe.
Do you love Jesus? When all the chips are down, and everything is dark, does your heart say "Abba Father" Mine does.
I love Him because He imprinted who he was and is and what he did on my soul. I am still trying to work this out, which will probably never finish as it is a walk and growth, not arriving. My challenge is how to convey to you, Jesus has won. Really really won. As one preacher said, he bought our salvation, how much more does He wish to give us, if only we have the eyes to see and ears to hear.
All I know is I have met people who are crushed inside, lost, alone, and yet have started a walk with Jesus. I want to help them heal and grow. Do you know how frustrating it is knowing what can be, but not understanding the steps to help others find this reality. It is what church is actually all about. Equipping each other to be part of the body.
I have worked with people who have later died. I have seen people deny life and yet have it taken from them.
I am saved to walk with Jesus. I am walking with Jesus every day. It is not heaven when I die, it is the kingdom of heaven here and now. You talk like this is all a game till you final pass this world, rather than the Holy Spirit is with you now asking you where are you, are you resting in Christ or working out a formula which means you are safe.
Do you love Jesus? When all the chips are down, and everything is dark, does your heart say "Abba Father" Mine does.
I love Him because He imprinted who he was and is and what he did on my soul. I am still trying to work this out, which will probably never finish as it is a walk and growth, not arriving. My challenge is how to convey to you, Jesus has won. Really really won. As one preacher said, he bought our salvation, how much more does He wish to give us, if only we have the eyes to see and ears to hear.
All I know is I have met people who are crushed inside, lost, alone, and yet have started a walk with Jesus. I want to help them heal and grow. Do you know how frustrating it is knowing what can be, but not understanding the steps to help others find this reality. It is what church is actually all about. Equipping each other to be part of the body.
This is what's known as making a man an offender for a word. An iniquitous man will not try to understand what someone else has said, but will use his words to find fault. So you took what I said to try to make it look like I said that we cannot sin at all.
No that's not what I meant at all. We must strive to not sin. That is godliness. So whether I say we must abstain from sin, or we must strive to abstain from sin, it is the same thing.
No that's not what I meant at all. We must strive to not sin. That is godliness. So whether I say we must abstain from sin, or we must strive to abstain from sin, it is the same thing.
I get so tired of being called an gnostic by someone who has no clue what it means.
It comes from the Greek gnosis, which means knowledge. But the entire point was that it was secret knowledge, which the normal person was not privy to. The gnostics thought that denying the body was the way to salvation and that only the spirit communed with God and other spiritual beings, who imparted to them this "secret" knowledge.
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"Gnosticism (from Ancient Greek: γνωστικόςgnostikos, "having knowledge", from γνῶσιςgnōsis, knowledge) is a modern term categorizing a collection of ancient religions whose adherents shunned the material world – which they viewed as created by the demiurge – and embraced the spiritual world.[SUP][1][/SUP] Gnostic ideas influenced many ancient religions[SUP][2][/SUP] that teach that gnosis (variously interpreted as knowledge, enlightenment, salvation, emancipation or 'oneness with God') may be reached by practicing philanthropy to the point of personal poverty, sexual abstinence (as far as possible for hearers, entirely for initiates) and diligently searching for wisdom by helping others.[SUP][3][/SUP] However, practices varied among those who were Gnostic.In Gnosticism, the world of the demiurge is represented by the underworld, which is associated with matter, flesh, time and, more particularly, an imperfect, ephemeral world. The world of God is represented by the upper world and is associated with the soul and perfection. The world of God is eternal and not part of the physical. It is impalpable and timeless.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]
Gnosticism is primarily defined in a Christian context.[SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP] In the past, some scholars thought that gnosticism predated Christianity and included pre-Christian religious beliefs and spiritual practices argued to be common to early Christianity, Neoplatonism, Hellenistic Judaism, Greco-Roman mystery religions, and Zoroastrianism (especially Zurvanism). The discussion of gnosticism changed radically with the discovery of the Nag Hammadi library and led to a revision of older assumptions. To date, no pre-Christian gnostic texts have been found,[SUP][6][/SUP]and gnosticism as a unique and recognizable belief system is considered to be a second century (or later) development.[SUP][7]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
I have no idea where HeRose gets the absolutely wrong information on this (I know he mentioned someone he had found on-line and was studying Greek with - I cannot remember the name) BUT
HE IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY WRONG about gnosticism!
I am sorry I did not address this sooner, but a few wrong insults (wrong because he has no clue about what a gnostic is) seemed like a lesser issue when faced with people who deny the grace of God to save and keep us! Forever!
(I am also sorry for the bolded caps! I almost never use them, but it is time to look at the names the majority of the members of this forum are being called by HeRose. And I will say this in PeterJens favour, he has never called anyone a gnostic! Perhaps he also knows the real definition and history of the word!)[/SUP]
It comes from the Greek gnosis, which means knowledge. But the entire point was that it was secret knowledge, which the normal person was not privy to. The gnostics thought that denying the body was the way to salvation and that only the spirit communed with God and other spiritual beings, who imparted to them this "secret" knowledge.
"
- of or relating to knowledge, especially esoteric mystical knowledge.
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- 1.
an adherent of Gnosticism."
"Gnosticism (from Ancient Greek: γνωστικόςgnostikos, "having knowledge", from γνῶσιςgnōsis, knowledge) is a modern term categorizing a collection of ancient religions whose adherents shunned the material world – which they viewed as created by the demiurge – and embraced the spiritual world.[SUP][1][/SUP] Gnostic ideas influenced many ancient religions[SUP][2][/SUP] that teach that gnosis (variously interpreted as knowledge, enlightenment, salvation, emancipation or 'oneness with God') may be reached by practicing philanthropy to the point of personal poverty, sexual abstinence (as far as possible for hearers, entirely for initiates) and diligently searching for wisdom by helping others.[SUP][3][/SUP] However, practices varied among those who were Gnostic.In Gnosticism, the world of the demiurge is represented by the underworld, which is associated with matter, flesh, time and, more particularly, an imperfect, ephemeral world. The world of God is represented by the upper world and is associated with the soul and perfection. The world of God is eternal and not part of the physical. It is impalpable and timeless.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]
Gnosticism is primarily defined in a Christian context.[SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP] In the past, some scholars thought that gnosticism predated Christianity and included pre-Christian religious beliefs and spiritual practices argued to be common to early Christianity, Neoplatonism, Hellenistic Judaism, Greco-Roman mystery religions, and Zoroastrianism (especially Zurvanism). The discussion of gnosticism changed radically with the discovery of the Nag Hammadi library and led to a revision of older assumptions. To date, no pre-Christian gnostic texts have been found,[SUP][6][/SUP]and gnosticism as a unique and recognizable belief system is considered to be a second century (or later) development.[SUP][7]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
I have no idea where HeRose gets the absolutely wrong information on this (I know he mentioned someone he had found on-line and was studying Greek with - I cannot remember the name) BUT
HE IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY WRONG about gnosticism!
I am sorry I did not address this sooner, but a few wrong insults (wrong because he has no clue about what a gnostic is) seemed like a lesser issue when faced with people who deny the grace of God to save and keep us! Forever!
(I am also sorry for the bolded caps! I almost never use them, but it is time to look at the names the majority of the members of this forum are being called by HeRose. And I will say this in PeterJens favour, he has never called anyone a gnostic! Perhaps he also knows the real definition and history of the word!)[/SUP]
I am not missing Jesus's point. These believers thought they knew Jesus, but they did not.
The warning is plain. Power church is no church without changed hearts and obedient wills.
Many here have raised power signs as more important than heart change or reality and walking in love.
It is this truth that is denied by many, which I was not aware of before was so prevalent.
The warning is plain. Power church is no church without changed hearts and obedient wills.
Many here have raised power signs as more important than heart change or reality and walking in love.
It is this truth that is denied by many, which I was not aware of before was so prevalent.
A day in the life of our Lord giving grace and then confronted by religious people.
John 9
[SUP]13 [/SUP]They brought to the Pharisees the man who had formerly been blind.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Now it was a Sabbath day when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes. ( I'm pretty sure Jesus does this on purpose as a lot of His healings were done on their Sabbath day )
[SUP]15 [/SUP]So the Pharisees again asked him how he had received his sight. And he said to them, “He put mud on my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” (typical religious attack again..He doesn't keep the Law..He is lawless ) But others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?” And there was a division among them.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So they said again to the blind man, “What do you say about him, since he has opened your eyes?” He said, “He is a prophet.” ( typical response to grace being displayed ..this man being attacked for experiencing the grace of Christ )
[SUP]24 [/SUP]So for the second time they called the man who had been blind and said to him, “Give glory to God. We know that this man is a sinner.” ( attacking personally Christ for showing grace )
[SUP]
25 [/SUP]He answered, “Whether he is a sinner I do not know. One thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.” (typical response from a person that now "sees" the grace of Christ in their life )
[SUP]26 [/SUP]They said to him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?”
[SUP]27 [/SUP]He answered them, “I have told you already, and you would not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become his disciples?” ( how many times do we keep saying the same things over and over again? )
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And they reviled him, saying, “You are his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses. (typical D.I.Y righteousness/holiness types response ...they trust in their own self-effort by their "doing" )
[SUP]29 [/SUP]We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where he comes from.” ( typical D.I.Y righteousness/holiness types response...bringing the person showing grace into question )
[SUP]
34 [/SUP]They answered him, “You were born in utter sin, and would you teach us?” And they cast him out. ( again typical D.I.Y holiness types response as they attack personally the person that received the grace of Christ )
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.” [SUP]
38 [/SUP]He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. ( this is the response of us to the grace of the gospel of Christ shown to us that have received His grace )
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.”
[SUP]
40 [/SUP]Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and said to him, “Are we also blind?”
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains
John 9
[SUP]13 [/SUP]They brought to the Pharisees the man who had formerly been blind.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Now it was a Sabbath day when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes. ( I'm pretty sure Jesus does this on purpose as a lot of His healings were done on their Sabbath day )
[SUP]15 [/SUP]So the Pharisees again asked him how he had received his sight. And he said to them, “He put mud on my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” (typical religious attack again..He doesn't keep the Law..He is lawless ) But others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?” And there was a division among them.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So they said again to the blind man, “What do you say about him, since he has opened your eyes?” He said, “He is a prophet.” ( typical response to grace being displayed ..this man being attacked for experiencing the grace of Christ )
[SUP]24 [/SUP]So for the second time they called the man who had been blind and said to him, “Give glory to God. We know that this man is a sinner.” ( attacking personally Christ for showing grace )
[SUP]
25 [/SUP]He answered, “Whether he is a sinner I do not know. One thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.” (typical response from a person that now "sees" the grace of Christ in their life )
[SUP]26 [/SUP]They said to him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?”
[SUP]27 [/SUP]He answered them, “I have told you already, and you would not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become his disciples?” ( how many times do we keep saying the same things over and over again? )
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And they reviled him, saying, “You are his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses. (typical D.I.Y righteousness/holiness types response ...they trust in their own self-effort by their "doing" )
[SUP]29 [/SUP]We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where he comes from.” ( typical D.I.Y righteousness/holiness types response...bringing the person showing grace into question )
[SUP]
34 [/SUP]They answered him, “You were born in utter sin, and would you teach us?” And they cast him out. ( again typical D.I.Y holiness types response as they attack personally the person that received the grace of Christ )
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.” [SUP]
38 [/SUP]He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. ( this is the response of us to the grace of the gospel of Christ shown to us that have received His grace )
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.”
[SUP]
40 [/SUP]Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and said to him, “Are we also blind?”
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains
G
I always like to bring up the fact that Jesus making the mud with His Spit was a bit of the humor of God.
the Jews had a man made law that one could not spit in the dirt on the Sabbath.......it was considered making mortar(work.) But they could spit upon rocks and surfaces that didn't have dirt to make mud.
the Jews had a man made law that one could not spit in the dirt on the Sabbath.......it was considered making mortar(work.) But they could spit upon rocks and surfaces that didn't have dirt to make mud.
- Status