BEFORE THE CROSS/AFTER THE CROSS

[PeterJens]

Peter, a person once told me: You are living too much with your head, and not enough with your heart.

Peaceful. You want to sympathise with peoples points that they are making not accepting we are not playing innocents here.

It comes down to a simple truth. Is Jesus lying?

Commanded to obey

teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
Matt 28:20

Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.
Luke 11:28

Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.
John 8:51

Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
John 14:23

If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.
John 15:20

We must obey God rather than human beings!
Acts 5:29

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
Rom 2:13

It is odd how people claim to follow Jesus yet obedience is not an issue, that is called legalism, evil.
According to Jesus they are not following Him.

 

[PeterJens]

I'm just as guilty.

Guilty of what? Not believing Jesus?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

While not of the KJV cult, it is my Bible, this one of many instances the King James is the superior Bible: the translation is actually consistent with the rest of the Bible, in this case even definition 1 in Strong's. Now, I'll let some of you get back to trying to fix what is not broken.

If Paul or John had meant righteousness in Romans 8:4 and Revelation 19:8 (as translated in the KJV), they would have used the Greek word δικαιοσύνη. Instead they used δικαίωμα, which means the effect of being justified. We know that the desired effect of being declared righteous is doing GOD's will. And this is the whole point and purpose of justification.

[Christ ]who gave himself for us, in order that he might redeem us from all lawlessness and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good deeds. Titus 2:14​

Strangely and sadly, we do not see this characteristic much in the church, but a rather strident opposition to such. Instead there is going to church once a week, singing hymns, having another person tell us how to live and make us feel good about ourselves, and of course the obligatory good work of gorging at the Sunday all-you-can-eat buffet afterwards.

 

[roaringkitten]

Back to the title of this thread, before the cross, God already saw man's fall and the solution planned out and promised before the world began.

1)The solution-Jesus
"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen." Rom 16:25-27

2)The free gift-eternal life
"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" Titus 1:2

 

[FreeNChrist]

Back to the title of this thread, before the cross, God already saw man's fall and the solution planned out and promised before the world began.

1)The solution-Jesus
"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen." Rom 16:25-27

2)The free gift-eternal life
"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" Titus 1:2

Unfortunately, that remains a mystery for many.

 

[roaringkitten]

Unfortunately, that remains a mystery for many.

Yes you are right. Our hope is an anchor to the soul:

"That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec." Heb 6:18-20

 

[JGIG]

The effect of Christians being declared righteous is because of Christ's righteousness which He bought for us with His blood....

It is always His righteous deed that makes us righteous...never ours.....that is called works-righteousness...His righteousness is a gift to us....

Yes! And the Scriptures are soooo clear on that point!

Deeds after we are in Christ are not about maintaining righteousness after the gift but about Fruit of the Spirit - the righteousness of God producing in us love which leads to good deeds! We don't do good deeds to prove righteousness, good deeds flow from who we are in Christ (secure right standing).

-JGIG

 

[roaringkitten]

The effect of Christians being declared righteous is because of Christ's righteousness which He bought for us with His blood....

It is always His righteous deed that makes us righteous...never ours.....that is called works-righteousness...His righteousness is a gift to us....

Amen! His blood sacrifice is what keeps us safe. It wasn't just shed, but applied to the mercy seat in heaven! Our debt was paid in full.

"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" Heb 9:12-14

 

[PeterJens]

Before the cross the only way to God was through becoming a Jew.

Sin was forgiven because of physical sacrifices in the temple.
Repentance was the process of confessing your sin to God, asking for forgiveness, commiting to not sinning again and then making recompense.

The law was the measuring stick of what was sin and what was acceptable.
Within the law was all the truths of having a right heart before the Lord, loving Him, seeking after His will.

Only by studying the law, the history, the prophets and walking in it did you get a real appreciation of who God is.

Jesus changed that with the cross, the ultimate statement of love and Gods heart. So clear was this statement Jesus added a new commandment, that we love one another as He had loved us.

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."
John 13:34

Jesus expectation was to have a people walking in liberty and righteousness.

 

[JGIG]

A completely false characterization. We're not trying to create anything. Christ is our justification. Good works simply prove we are connected to the vine, and keeping ourselves undefiled from sin and the world keeps us holy. Faith without works is dead.

Exactly God has cleansed, healed and made us whole, so that with Christ we stand redeemed and righteous.

It is not because we have made ourselves righteous, Christ has, and we can only maintain that by dwelling in communion with Christ.

And that's where you go off the rails.

YOU cannot maintain the Gift of Righteousness from Christ.

You cannot improve on or take away from that which is perfect and complete.

The problem has always been reading in failure that is covered by Christs righteousness, rather than Paul is saying we are washed, holy, pure, with stain or blemish. What is being claimed is you find a precious jar in the garden you wash it, cleanse it, repair it and make it whole, but in reality it is still dirty, broken and useless. No, it has been made perfect, which is why the whole exercise was done in the first place. To deny this work is to deny the whole reason Christ came and died.

He did not come to die to only have junk unresolved and broken forever. That is of no use.

If that is what you really believe, then why say, "It is not because we have made ourselves righteous, Christ has, and we can only maintain that by dwelling in communion with Christ."

When you believe in Christ and receive His Work on your behalf, you ARE dwelling with Him - FOREVER. There is no drifting in and out of Christ. His righteousness, as you correctly state above, washes us completely. We are holy, pure, without stain or blemish. Here I will restate here that you can neither improve upon nor take away from that which is perfect and complete.

23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. (from Heb. 7)​

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

The odd contradiction

People talk about self righteousness, when this is a gift of the cross.
These same people claim they have a perfect, holy, pure spirit given to them in their hearts. They just have to walk in it.

So rather than being redeemed, washed, taught, discipled, you already are ready for heaven instantly you are saved, and it is just walking in it, because everything else is just burnt away.

Being taught and discipled is not mutually exclusive or in opposition to being 'ready for heaven'. WE do not make ourselves ready for heave, Jesus does (consider the thief on the cross)!

23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. (from Heb. 7)​

-JGIG

 

[PeterJens]

And that's where you go off the rails.
YOU cannot maintain the Gift of Righteousness from Christ.

This is where we differ. I am not given a gift of walking in righteousness. There are two theological ideas
1. I am reckoned righteous because of my faith.
2. I have Christs righteousness imputed to me.

These two concepts are related to justification. The cross took my sin away, my faith in Jesus was counted as righteousness and redeemed me.

I am then being taught, disciplined to walk righteously. If I sin, I have failed to walk righteously and need to repent, confess and accept the forgiveness Christ offers.

My righteous walk matters, because I was saved and redeemed so I could walk the walk, follow Jesus.
We are therefore talking about different things. I am not saving myself, I am walking in my salvation, in the Kingdom of heaven, by walking righteously. If I do not walk righteously or desire to, why was I ever saved or desired to know Christ?
To walk with Christ is to desire purity and being right.

 

[JGIG]

Maybe some bigger print will help you to read what we actually believe?

The gift of the cross is the ability to walk righteously.

Think what you are saying. People are sinners, lost in sin, without hope, doomed to failure. Christ died so that they might be forgiven and then walk righteously.

You are saying all this was done so they could stay sinners, slaves to sin.

No, PeterJens, you are blatently stating a falsehood.

We repeatedly - REPEATEDLY - state that in Christ we are New Creations, created in Christ to bear the Fruit that HE produces in and through us, and we, led by His Spirit, do the works He has prepared in advance for us to do.

So nothing, in your ideas, has changed. Jesus and communion by faith is the thing that makes a person who sins into a person who walks righteously.

No. That is also NOT TRUE.

We repeatedly - REPEATEDLY - post 2 Cor. 5 where we are told that in Christ

16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ,the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.​

You continually avoid the question, when are you going to be righteous, without sin? Because you know the next question is why not now rather than then? If God can make you righteous when we see Him, why cannot he do this now. You believe in miracles, that nothing is impossible for God, yet you do not believe this is possible.

No, we don't avoid the question. We repeatedly - REPEATEDLY - state that in Christ, we are righteous with His gift of righteousness NOW.

And because God is not counting the sins of those who are in Christ against them, when we do sin, it does not tarnish the perfect righteousness of Christ gifted to us. See the passage posted directly above.

Furthermore, because we ARE New Creations, we don't want to sin - sinning is contrary to our new nature in Christ - but if/when we do, we walk in the security of our Perfect, Permanent High Priest Who lives forever to intercede on our behalf (see 1 Jn. 2, the letter to the Hebrews).

You preach an odd version of sinless perfectionism, claiming it is possible while simultaneously claiming to be a sinner in need of daily cleansing.

The great commission is teach them to obey my commandments. If you need to be taught, it is about learning, practising, being sanctified, transformed through effort. You call all effort works, or self righteous justification rather than this is the means commanded by Christ that we become what he has bought for us, the ability to walk righteously.

The goal of the Gospel is not morality, and morality, while a good thing, is not the goal, but love, because in love are all the requirements of God met: Forgiveness of sins, the gift of righteousness, the gift of New Life, and the Fruit of His Spirit which furthers His Kingdom.

As far as "being sanctified, transformed through effort", Scripture is clear:

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this:

Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (from Gal. 3)​

It is our faith that covers failure and is the seal of grace.

Have you read Ephesians? Chapter one in particular?

It is not your faith that does anything, but where you PUT your faith, and that is IN CHRIST, the Author and Perfecter of faith!

Sin is about our emotions, our histories, our hurts, our true desires and needs.

Agreed. And thankfully, we have a patient Father who is ever faithful, promising this:

6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (from Philippians 1)​

But you do not want to go here, because religion was a way of escaping the chaos, and trying to ignore the damage life has done in your lives. But Jesus is the great healer, he has come to set the prisoner free. So apply your faith and walk in it, believe His words.

We HAVE gone there. Time and again. You continue to say that we think ourselves broken/damaged/hopeless, and that is far from the reality of what we think/believe/post. FAR.

Turn away from this doubleminded slander in which you continuously engage. It is sinful, divisive behavior.



-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Now I have got to be honest.

We keep hoping . . .

Don't let us down!

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

We are proclaiming Christs glory, His free gift of freedom for the prisoner. Paul did not say, woe is me, I am bound by sin and cannot walk properly. No he said

"So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man." Acts 24:16

"My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me." 1 Cor 4:4

"Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, with integrity and godly sincerity. We have done so, relying not on worldly wisdom but on God’s grace."
2 Cor 1:12

Paul is striving to keep a clear conscience. This is not a passive walk that just happens. It is about walking in faith and action.

Paul is correctly relaying how he now walks because it is in sync with his New Creation nature. It has nothing to do with him maintaining righteousness or making himself 'heaven ready', as you've stated.

-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You cannot improve on or take away from that which is perfect and complete.

That's true, but you can sure defile what he's given you.

 

[JGIG]

Originally Posted by JGIG
You cannot improve on or take away from that which is perfect and complete.

That's true, but you can sure defile what he's given you.

You are saying that the perfect righteousness of Christ can be defiled.

Scripture, please.

-JGIG

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

The butchering and contradicting of the scripture is amazing to watch.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You are saying that the perfect righteousness of Christ can be defiled.

Scripture, please.

-JGIG

You're not Christ. Neither are you the righteousness of Christ. His righteousness is imputed to your account. It's a credit payable at the resurrection. You are being made into his righteousness as you do his will in faith.

 

[JGIG]

This is where we differ. I am not given a gift of walking in righteousness. There are two theological ideas
1. I am reckoned righteous because of my faith.
2. I have Christs righteousness imputed to me.

These two concepts are related to justification. The cross took my sin away,
my faith in Jesus was counted as righteousness and
redeemed me.
I am then being taught, disciplined to walk righteously. If I sin, I have failed to walk righteously and need to repent, confess and accept the forgiveness Christ offers.

My righteous walk matters, because I was saved and redeemed so I could walk the walk, follow Jesus.
We are therefore talking about different things. I am not saving myself, [REALLY?]

I am walking in my salvation,

in the Kingdom of heaven, by [MY] walking righteously. If I do not walk righteously or desire to, why was I ever saved or desired to know Christ?

That's a very self-centered and self-elevating belief system you got there, PeterJens.

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

(from Rev. 7)​

To walk with Christ is to desire purity and being right.

34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (from Jn. 13)
​

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
(1 Cor. 13)​

-JGIG