NICE! Sanders thread

[Mitspa]

tax dollars belong to the whole nation.
are you against public schools? police? firemen? free healthcare for veterans? public roads? 911 service? national parks?
all these things are paid for - and free for you to benefit from - by "other people's money"

i'm going to assume you're not a hypocrite, and let you know how appalling it is to learn that you are against police! and assume that you think that only people who can afford private schools should be allowed to learn how to read and write! wow! you're nuts, man!

Strawman..the issue is Bernie and he is not a "good" person because he wants to take money from working people and give it to others... That's not moral ...thats a form of legalized theft aka socialism and communism ..the fact that he would continue the slaughter of millions of innocent babies ..makes him a monster

 

[posthuman]

Doesn't even have to be riddled with debt at all though, that is what socialized medicine is about.

it's common sense.

what's more expensive overall -- making a bunch of for-profit health insurance companies rich, or cutting out the middle man?

insurance companies are the second biggest employer of mathematicians in the country, after the NSA. and what do mathematicians do at insurance companies? exactly the same thing they do at casinos -- they make sure the house always wins, and that the house always wins big.

a large proportion of the money this country spends on "healthcare" is lining the pockets of insurance companies. we can keep spending that money, or we can pool it into a system that is not driven by making profits, but works the same way - by distributing the cost of individual care among all the people paying into the system.

so what do you think is cheaper? paying a doctor, or paying a doctor and an insurance company too? this is a no-brainer. and it's not as if private insurance has to be destroyed. we need a system where every citizen gets basic care, and anyone can supplement that with additional insurance. we can stop hamstringing businesses with this burden, and pay for it ourselves. i'm more than happy to have higher taxes, and quit paying my for-profit health insurer. the system we've got now is a silly half-measure -- it's great that more people have insurance, but all we've done is force everyone to pay into private, for-profit companies. anyone think they don't have lobbying power? pff.

 

[Kisses1990]

Kisses1990, the reason that human abortion is evil is nothing to do with sentience. As a Christian you should realise that, really. The reason that human abortion is evil is because every human being is created in the image and likeness of God, and each human being has an immortal soul. Animals are not created in the image and likeness of God, not do they have immortal souls. A human being is a human being when they are 100 years old, 20 years old, 6 months old, or two days old.

"For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb...
Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be."

Nor is level of pain experienced by the victim a measure of morality. I can put someone under anaesthetic and kill them, and they will feel nothing. That doesn't make it ok. Nor does the amount of consciousness equal value of life. A sleeping person does not have less value than an awake pig. I know none of this will change your mind, but it needs to be said.

Well I don't believe for a second that God wants anyone to suffer. And I don't believe for a second that "created in the image and likeness of God" is referring to physical attributes. Jesus came as a human, but are you saying that God has the body of some human guy? lol "Created in image and likeness", I think, is referring to the fact that we have a soul and are spiritual beings.... It's nothing to do with whether we are female or male, what color our skin is, or whether we are humans. I mean, he could have given souls to chickens if he wanted to lol does that mean that chickens were made in the image and likeness physically? Probably not, it probably refers to it spiritually.

I mean, obviously God isn't "knitting us together in our mothers womb". That's a metaphor. Different cell processes are working together to form a body, processes like "apoptosis" is involved... It's no different in humans than any other animal. It's not a LITERAL "knitting" with a needle and thread. I think it's further proof of this in the next line when it says "Your eyes saw my unformed body". Clearly, that's talking about knowing us in our non-physical, spiritual form. Or "spiritual body" if you will.

Level of pain experience is a measure of morality. For example, it's immoral to torture anything. Just as you wouldn't want to abuse a human, you wouldn't want to abuse your pet either...unless you're sick. If we are to be moral beings, we should try to reduce suffering as much as possible. That's why dentists use anesthetic when they are doing work on your teeth. There was no option prior to the discovery of pain killers or anesthetics, but not NOT use it now that we DO have it would be to increase needless suffering and would be immoral. That's why Mother Theresa was a horrible and immoral person. I don't know why Catholics still embrace her. She allowed for unnecessary suffering and thought she was doing Gods Will.

Consciousness has to equal value to a certain extent. Do you feel bad if you kill a house spider? If not, you probably don't because they probably have very little consciousness, if any. But if a raccoon got in your house, you wouldn't just kill it...you'd try to trap it and set it free, because they are conscious beings.

This does not equate to killing sleeping people, of course lol. That would still be immoral. Think of their families? And they weren't even suffering, so it would be an act of cruelness. Conversely, if you believe in capital punishment, I'd suggest that it's done in the most painfree way as possible, not using wicked methods like the electric chair. For a dying cancer patient in a lot of pain, which no meds can decrease, euthanasia should be an option for them. And if they were to choose it, it should also be pain free. Fetuses don't have that option because they are not sentient. They are completely in the hands of their mother's decision. They are not yet a "person" with choices. They wouldn't know the difference if they lived or died, much like the spider.

 

[posthuman]

Strawman..the issue is Bernie and he is not a "good" person because he wants to take money from working people and give it to others... That's not moral ...thats a form of legalized theft aka socialism and communism ..the fact that he would continue the slaughter of millions of innocent babies ..makes him a monster

he just wants to do exactly the same thing that the government already does.
it's not a strawman at all.

did you go to elementary school, Mitspa?
who do you think paid for that? it was my parent's tax dollars, buddy.
if that equals "communism" then we're already a communist country. we have been since the first day federal taxes were collected.

and i don't know how many times people have to point it out to you -- electing Republicans for the last 50 years just because they said they were anti-abortion has not stopped abortions from being legal. it is NOT going to stop them from being legal in the next 4 or 8 years either, and Trump is pro-abortion, for goodness sake, so abortion as a reason to vote republican is ridiculous, ESPECIALLY for supporting Trump.

 

[Kisses1990]

this is the ideology that allowed Hitler to kills jews and other humans because they where equated to animals ... No real Christian would have this attitude

Nooo. If you're referring to evolution, which Bernie Sanders accepts I should add as this is a Sanders thread, Hitler was an IDIOT and completely misunderstood it. Well, he either misunderstood it on accident or he was disingenuous and "misunderstood" it on purpose to propagate the lies of his will to kill jews. He was a racist bigot and totally misunderstood Darwin.

If you want to know how I really psycho-analyze Hitler, I personally think he was a prejudice evil man, who misunderstood Darwin, and then read a little too much of Nietzsche and Nietzsche's "ubermensch" concept in Thus Spake Zarathustra. He misunderstood Nietzsche too, btw, but took it out of context to think that he, Hitler himself, was the "Superman" concept and he needed to destroy weaker races... This is nothing to do with Nietzsche or Darwin for that matter. Hitler was a terrible terrible man.

 

[Spoonfulofsugar]

The type of socialism Bernie Sanders is presenting is one in which he's trying to STRENGTHEN the middle class, not destroy it.

If you believe that I have some swamp land in Florida to sell you.

 

[Utah]

Trump is pro-abortion too.

I'm all for aborting future liberals.

 

[Kisses1990]

Lol I'll buy your swamp land from you to make sure conservatives don't try and build another McDonalds on top of the land and harm nature in the process haha

 

[Demi777]

I'm all for aborting future liberals.

Dont forget the stupid people that would be ''possible obama voters'' and democrats, child molestors and all em ugly things

 

[Kisses1990]

Dont forget the stupid people that would be ''possible obama voters'' and democrats, child molestors and all em ugly things

haha wat? Now we're supporting abortion here. Lol You must really hate democrats to equate them with child molesters... So crazy. I wouldn't kill anything if it were possible...

 

[posthuman]

haha wat? Now we're supporting abortion here. Lol You must really hate democrats to equate them with child molesters... So crazy. I wouldn't kill anything if it were possible...

hatred, the only thing that sells better is sex.

there's some truth to the accusation that willful ignorance, bigotry and blind animosity are major factors in the amount of support Trump gets. none of these are things that we as Christians should be in favor of. why are believers being blinded? i'm starting to wonder whether Trump is to be the instrument by which the righteous judgement of God is brought on this country, because if he's elected, he will surely lead us directly into wars.

 

[Kisses1990]

hatred, the only thing that sells better is sex.

there's some truth to the accusation that willful ignorance, bigotry and blind animosity are major factors in the amount of support Trump gets. none of these are things that we as Christians should be in favor of. why are believers being blinded? i'm starting to wonder whether Trump is to be the instrument by which the righteous judgement of God is brought on this country, because if he's elected, he will surely lead us directly into wars.

Are you suggesting that Trump is the Antichrist? Every election everyone thinks this time it's the antichrist. At least it was the case as far as I can remember. It happened with Obama and it happened with Bush. I find it highly unlikely. Besides, I thought Satan was supposed to be clever, sly, and beautiful? Those qualities are used to manipulate and seduce people in his/her trap. You're really insulting the devil right now by comparing him to Trump lol (I'm just kidding of course)

 

[Spoonfulofsugar]

I care about all life. I go out of my way not to even step on insects. It is because I care that I support abortion, especially in certain circumstances. I even made the comparison with zygotes and full grown pigs with memories, emotions, and pain receptors. They are more sentient than the zygote or the fetus in comparison. And I'm working hard to become a full vegan because of the fact that I care about other lives, not just my own. I wouldn't care about being vegan if I just cared about me.

I even made the comparison with zygotes and full grown pigs with memories, emotions, and pain receptors. They are more sentient than the zygote or the fetus in comparison.

More able to feel than the fetus in comparison? That is a spiritually sick mindset. Humans have dominion over everything great and small . Genesis 1:26


So, you support sanders who is behind enslaving YOU and is really in bed with the cronies,turns a blind eye to killing babies, sexual deviant lifestyles dont seem to bother him, he advocates bringing all the illegals in and so much more, but yet you feel sorry for animals? That saddens me it really does! Your generation scares me! Read you Bible and quit thinking what is right in your own mind. You know I read a study where the theory was that those who adhere to a vegan diet are spiritually weak. Interesting....
[h=3]Genesis 9:3[/h]Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.[h=3][/h][h=3][/h]

[h=3]Romans 14:1-23[/h] As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...

 

[KimPetras]

I think you'll find these interesting:

The Oft-Repeated Lie About Warren Buffet’s Secretary’s Tax Rate – The American Catholic

.: The Truth About Warren Buffett's Secretary's Taxes...and His

Buffett says he's still paying lower tax rate than his secretary - Mar. 4, 2013

The issue is that both your links speculate that it's unlikely his secretary pays more (percentage wise) than Warren. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, he has compared their taxes in the past (before the slight tax spike from 15% to 20%) and concluded he paid more. Since the spike, he too is speculating he probably still pays more because of the other tax increases his secretary received as well.

 

[posthuman]

Are you suggesting that Trump is the Antichrist? Every election everyone thinks this time it's the antichrist. At least it was the case as far as I can remember. It happened with Obama and it happened with Bush. I find it highly unlikely. Besides, I thought Satan was supposed to be clever, sly, and beautiful? Those qualities are used to manipulate and seduce people in his/her trap. You're really insulting the devil right now by comparing him to Trump lol (I'm just kidding of course)

you don't have to be the antichrist to be the tool God uses to bring on judgement.
but i'm certainly not saying he's pro-Christ. he "doesn't bring God into that picture"

 

[KimPetras]

I'm happily surprised there are more than just a couple Sanders supporters on here.

 

[Kisses1990]

More able to feel than the fetus in comparison? That is a spiritually sick mindset. Humans have dominion over everything great and small . Genesis 1:26


So, you support sanders who is behind enslaving YOU and is really in bed with the cronies,turns a blind eye to killing babies, sexual deviant lifestyles dont seem to bother him, he advocates bringing all the illegals in and so much more, but yet you feel sorry for animals? That saddens me it really does! Your generation scares me! Read you Bible and quit thinking what is right in your own mind. You know I read a study where the theory was that those who adhere to a vegan diet are spiritually weak. Interesting....
Genesis 9:3

Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.

Romans 14:1-23

As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...

I'm sorry to say you're being very close minded. If you truly believe we have dominion over everything, big and small, then you have the burden of trying to PROTECT everything, big and small. We are definitely not to go and slaughter and torture anything needlessly. That line in Romans you quoted does not necessarily mean the same thing for today's world. That's Old Testament and was intended for those people. It would have been a horrible existence living in the time that Romans was written. I would kill an animal for my survival, absolutely. If I was stranded on some island, it's gotta be about survival. I'm sure you've heard similar stories where people are stranded and they've resorted to cannibalism. This isn't the same thing as cannibalism, of course, but we are all related to animals.

I promise you that it's not the weak that only eat vegetables... It's a hard choice to make. Very few restaurants cater to vegans. It's a constant struggle and is akward. Just as it's not easy being Christian. It would be easier to just go and live a life of sin, but Christians live a life of great abstinence. And I'm just choosing to abstain from meat and adding to the suffering of these poor creatures.

There is a recent video that Paul McCartney hosts showing the horrible living conditions of these animals and the great suffering they go through. You can look it up on youtube. I don't want to link it here because it's very graphic, but maybe I should anyway, because it is truth. Sometimes the truth hurts.

But all of this being said, I'm not trying to judge other people that eat meat. I wasn't trying to ride a high horse about my decision not to. I only even brought it up as an example for comparison. I'm not passing judgement on you for whatever you want to eat, but I defy you to watch the video I mentioned and not have a second though, even if it's fleeting. There are also many health benefits to being vegan, but that's all I'll say about that.

I don't know anything about Sanders trying to enslave me... You mentioned "sexual deviance". I'm not sure where that falls into this topic, but as a free country, not a fascist theocracy, people have a right to be as deviant as they want, so long as they don't hurt anyone that doesn't wish to be hurt.

I won't get into the illegals. Yes I feel sorry for animals that suffer so much... They go through so much pain, it's unbelievable. They live in their own feces and can barely move and...it's just not right. If you think it's ok to abuse any living thing, then I think you are the one who is sick.

 

[Kisses1990]

you don't have to be the antichrist to be the tool God uses to bring on judgement.
but i'm certainly not saying he's pro-Christ. he "doesn't bring God into that picture"

I thought Trump always trumps is "Methodist" card? He brings God into the picture, whether or not God wants to be there lol

 

[JosephsDreams]

I live literally 10 minutes from his office in Burlington, VT. I have gone there on several occasions to talk to them about helping me recover about $2200 TD bank stole from me last March. They have been very kind and proactive in the matter, and after repeated attempts at trying to resolve it with the bank, they actually opened up a congressional inquiry.
I also like that he is honest. I also like that he is originally from Brooklyn, NY.

 

[KimPetras]

I live literally 10 minutes from his office in Burlington, VT. I have gone there on several occasions to talk to them about helping me recover about $2200 TD bank stole from me last March. They have been very kind and proactive in the matter, and after repeated attempts at trying to resolve it with the bank, they actually opened up a congressional inquiry.
I also like that he is honest. I also like that he is originally from Brooklyn, NY.

I'm a bit jealous... have you ever seen/talked to him personally?