The "Rapture"?

PlainWord · Apr 3, 2016

You still aren't getting it that the mountains (not hills) are heads. Besides, Mecca is surrounded by 7 actual mountains. So, you cannot disqualify Mecca because of your "Hill Argument." But let's see what "mountains" really mean and they are equated to "heads." Heads are not equated to literal mountains anywhere in the Bible.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns... [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed.

Same seven heads. Are literal mountains wounded then healed? Mountains are spiritual kingdoms. Common man, you are better than this, aren't you?

Ahwatukee · Apr 3, 2016

Hi PlainWord,

Here is the scripture:

"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits."

Symbolism is always used to represent the literal. In the verse above the angel tells John "I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides." So, he's telling John what the symbolism of the seven Heads represents on which the woman sits, which is seven hills, i.e seven heads = seven hills. It is the woman's headquarters. With your interpretation the "Seven Heads" are symbolic for "Seven heads." Why are you saying "let's see what the mountan's really mean" when it tells you their literal meaning right in the verse. Again, this is one of the biggest errors in interpreting Revelation, that is, people read what the explanation that is right in front of them and go looking in the OT to find out what it means. The angel is telling John right there in the scripture that the heads are hills/mountains.

The answer to your claim is that, according to the scripture, the seven heads are symbolic representing two different things, as can be deduced from the following:

"The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings."

So, the seven heads are symbolic for seven hills upon which woman sits, the woman being that great city that rules over the kings of the earth and the seven heads are also symbolic representing seven kings. The scripture that you are quoting above is dealing with symbolism of the kings. It is that head/king that is receiving the fatal wound, as seen below:

"The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

Therefore, the head that receives the fatal wound is referring to that eighth king who belongs to the seven who is identified as the beast who comes up from the Abyss. You need to keep your symbolisms in order! The word "Beast" is used to represent both that last kingdom and that last day ruler of that kingdom. As proof of the beast being an actual person, see the following:

"But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

As stated above, you are confusing your symbolisms. The reference to that head receiving a fatal wound is in referring to the symbolism of the seven heads representing seven kings, with that eighth king, who is the beast, being the one who receives the fatal wound. The other symbolism for the seven heads are the seven hills upon which the woman sits, which is that great city that rules over the kings of the earth.

The woman = That great city that rules over the kings of the earth

Seven Heads = Seven literal hills/mountains that the woman sits upon

Seven Heads = Seven succession of kings

Beast in the Abyss = That eight king who receives the fatal wound and belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

Ahwatukee · Apr 3, 2016

Then you need to study the history and the present agenda of the RCC. For it is well know that she has been wanting her power back that she had before when she controlled kings and their armies for over a thousand years. The seat of the pope emerged from Constantine, who as well as being an emperor, he was also the first pope. Therefore, the office of pope shares both political and religious authority, which is what the office of pope wants to get back. When that antichrist comes, he will provide the pope and the RCC with that power and more. The pope of that time will be given power to perform miracles, signs and wonders and that for the sake of giving credibility to the antichrist, who will be proclaiming to be God and thereby deceiving the inhabitants of the earth by those miraculous signs. This is what is meant by "I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints," meaning that the woman being Rome's counterfeit church, will be responsible for the shed blood of the great tribulation saints, which are seen in Rev.20:4-6 as being beheaded. During that time of the beasts reign and the power of the RCC, anyone that does not summit themselves to her as sovereign will be killed. Since the GTS will be keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and will not worship the beast, his image or receive his mark, they will be enemies of the beast and the woman.

abcdef · Apr 3, 2016

Ahwatukee,

WOW! Do I agree with you about the RCC being the beast! An image of the first Rome.
Isn't the Pope an image of Caesar?
Could it be that when the Vatican became a nation in 1929 that it was the beast coming out of the pit to destroy Israel? Look what happened afterward. Now that Israel is restored he can attack them. But he has no army (image)so he deceives the kings of the east (Euphrates),Iran and it's allies.
Yes, maybe?

Ahwatukee · Apr 3, 2016

abcdef said:

Hello abcdef,

Actually, the RCC is not the beast, but the woman who rides the beast. The beast represents that last day ten-toed kingdom and it also represents the man who will be ruling it, with Satan as the one orchestrating. The reference to the woman who rides the beast, the woman being Rome's counterfeit church, is that she will use the beast to gain her power and authority over all people back. By one of the future popes being that second beast, the false prophet, it means that the false prophet will be supporting the beast who will be proclaiming to be God and will give him credibility via those miracles, signs and wonders.

Taking into consideration the current devoutness of Roman Catholics to the RCC, what do you think is going happen when one of the future pope's begins to perform those miracles, signs and wonders? It will pull all of the other sects of the counterfeit churches under the authority of the RCC and in fact the rest of the world. And because the false prophet/pope will be working on behalf of that first beast, the antichrist, the beast will have all of the devout of the RCC and religion in his hip pocket and that because of their devotion to their pope.

abcdef · Apr 3, 2016

Hello Ahwatukee,

I would hear your thoughts about this,
Usually when I think of the religion of Rome I think of Caesar worship (man is God). I believe is is going on still.
When I look at Rev 17:3, I associate the beast she is riding on with the sea beast of ch 13:1 (civil Rome), and the woman with the earth beast (religious Rome, Caesar worship).
Using this logic could't you say that the sea beast dies (civil Rome,seventh head, 476 ad western), but the earth beast (woman, religious Rome, eighth head) continues to perdition?

JosephsDreams · Apr 3, 2016

Rapture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlGbTMQJRt0

Ahwatukee · Apr 3, 2016

abcdef said:

Hello again,

First Beast out of the sea with Ten horns, seven heads and ten crowns:

Ten horns =And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast. (Rev.17:12-13) Note: These ten kings will reign concurrently with the beast in that future ten-toed kingdom. These ten kings are represented by that ten-toed kingdom made of iron and partly baked clay (Dan.2:31-14, Rev.13)

Seven Heads = This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated. Note: Rome was literally built and is famous for her seven hills and which is where Rome's religious headquarters is, the Vatican.

The Woman = The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth. Note: At the time that John was receiving this information from the angel, Rome was that great city that was ruling over the kings of the earth.

Seven Crowns = they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. Note: Unlike the ten kings who will rule concurrently with the beast, these are a succession of seven kings during John's time frame.

Five have fallen = At the time that John was receiving this information five of those kings had ruled and gone.

One is = At the time that the angel was giving John this information king number six was ruling.

The other has not yet come = King number seven followed king number 6, but ruled only for a short time. This king was future to John and in the past to us.

The beast who once was, now is not and yet will come = The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction. Note: This is that angel who comes up out of the Abyss mentioned in Rev.9 who is the king of those demonic beings that torment the inhabitants for 5 months. He is also the beast who when comes out of the Abyss and kills the two witnesses in Rev.11:7. This beast, along with the false prophet, are who thrown into the lake of fire alive at the Lord's return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom (Rev.19:20). This beast is also one of the heads that receives the fatal wound, which along with the miracles, signs and wonders will be for the purpose of deceiving the inhabitants of the earth. He is that head which is that eighth king (Rev.13:3, 17:11)

abcdef · Apr 3, 2016

Hello Ahwatukee, Thanks for sharing and caring.

If we associate the beast (legs of iron, 4th Dan 7) with the Rome of John's day (6th head), does the 7th mean the rest of the Caesars until the fall of Rome(civil). Wouldn't the 8th head be the papacy (image)?

presidente · Apr 4, 2016

GenJesus said:

I don't get why any Bible-believing Christian would say he doesn't believe in 'the rapture.' I know there are some amil that believe Jesus is literally coming back, but then say they don't believe in 'the rapture.'

The Bible clearly says, 'and they which are alive and remain shall be 'CAUGHT UP' to meet the Lord in the air. 'Rapture' refers to the Latin translation of the words translated 'caught up' in that verse in I Thessalonians.

So, yes, there is a rapture, and the Bible clearly teaches it.

I think a lot of the people who say they don't believe in 'the rapture' don't know what they are saying. Most of them mean they don't believe this happens 7 years before the Second Coming, and they don't think it will result in airplanes falling out of the sky, followed by 7 years of 'the AntiChrist' ruling the earth while someone who looks like Kirk Cameron seeks to somehow thwart his prophesied plans.

I don't believe that the rapture will occur 7 years before Jesus comes back, either. I Corinthians 15 tells us that they that are Christ's will be made alive 'at His coming'. Chapter 1 speaks of believers waiting for the revelation (translated the 'coming' in the KJV) of our Lord Jesus Christ. II Thessalonians 2 shows us the church receiving rest and Christ executing judgment on them that believe not when Jesus comes to be glorified in the saints. It sure seems to put the judgment of those wicked at the same time with Jesus coming back and giving the church rest. It sure seems to blow the pre-trib theory out of the water if you ask me.

Now, add to that the fact that the pre-trib doctrine is just assumed and read into scripture, rather than taken from it. I hear this time and time again on the radio. Take the Calvary Chapel guys on the radio. The attempts to actually get it from a text of scripture rely on stuff like taking the verse that says stuff with the man of sin won't happen until their has first been a falling away, and taking the 'falling away' to mean the rapture. Paul uses it in its other occurrence in scripture to refer to men departing from the faith. Some people argue for pre-trib based on allegorical interpretation, 'come up hither.' There is also taking the verse about him that shall be taken out of the way before the man of sin can be revealed as referring to something having to do with the rapture. This is circular reasoning.

There is also the 'not appointed unto wrath' argument, which is rather weak. God poured out judgment on Egypt without spilling the plagues on His people. There are similarities, after all, between the plagues of Egypt and the plagues of revelation.

It sure seems to me that every single argument trying to place the rapture at at 7 years before Jesus comes back is really, really weak. And there is direct scriptural evidence to put them at the same time. So I don't see a case for pre-trib in scripture at all.

TMS · Apr 4, 2016

Not sure if you have written about it yet
The RCC ruled for 1260 years (the dark ages) and lost its world wide power when Napoleon took the pope captive in 1798
this is the deadly wound but over the last 200 years the Catholic church has slowly healed.

Ahwatukee · Apr 4, 2016

presidente said:

Hello presidente,

What you, along with others don't understand is that the wrath that is coming is unprecedented and will affect all inhabitants on the entire earth. The other thing that you don't understand is the magnitude and severity of the wrath that is coming, if you did you wouldn't be holding to your position. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, the fatalities being a fourth and a third of the inhabitants of the earth, respectively, which will amount to approximately 4.4 billion people and that is not including the fatalities as a result of trumpets 1,2 and 3 and the bowl judgments.

Jesus rescues believers from the coming wrath:
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

Believer's not appointed suffer wrath:
"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

After Paul gave a detail account of the resurrection and the changing of the living in 1 Thes.4:13-18, he then finished with, "therefore, comfort each other with these words." If the church was to go through God's wrath, there would be no comfort. Neither would our going through his wrath and being caught up afterwards be a blessed hope.

The main problem as a result of this on-going controversy is that expositors have erroneously made the gathering of the church synonymous with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. The proof that the church is in heaven prior to the Lord's return to the earth is definitely there, as can be seen from the following:

"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean." (Rev.19:14)

Who are those on white horses wearing fine linen, white and clean?

"Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

The bride, which is another designation for the church, is seen in heaven at the wedding and she is receiving her fine linen, bright and clean, which is the same clothing that those on the white horses are wearing as they follow Christ out of heaven to end the age in Rev.19:14. Further support of those on white horses being the church is found in Rev.17:14 below:

"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

His "called, chosen and faithful followers" would be a reference to those who will have previously been gathered prior to God's wrath.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 vs Revelation 20:4-6

This is another error that expositors make in that, they make these two scriptures as being the same event. The problem with this is that, 1 Thes.4:13-18 describes the dead being resurrected and the living being changed and caught up, where Rev.20:4-6 describes a resurrection ONLY with no living being changed and caught up. This resurrection here consists only of the great tribulation saints. The purpose of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will fulfill the following prophesies:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth, declares the Lord. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” (Zeph.1:1-3)

"I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir." (Isa.13:12)

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

The Greek "EK" above means "out of" as in "I will keep you out of" the hour of trial, not through, during or in, but out of.

Another proof that the church is not on earth during the time of God's wrath is that, Revelation 1 thru the very end of chapter 3, the word "Ekklesia" translated as "Church" is listed 19 times and the word "Hagios" translated "Saints" is not found in those chapters. Likewise, from chapter 4 onward, the word "Ekklesia/Church" is never found, but only the word "Hagios/Saints" which demonstrates that the church is no longer on the earth. It is the great tribulation saints who are introduced in Rev.7 that are referred to throughout the narrative.

fredoheaven · Apr 4, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

This is the very purpose of the rapture and that's what Apostle Paul is all talking about the "comfort" in 1 thess. 3:18

1 Thes. 3:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Ahwatukee · Apr 4, 2016

fredoheaven said:

I wholeheartedly agree, unfortunately there are those who make the gathering of the church synonymous with the Lord's return to end that age and thereby have the church going through the entire wrath of God.

presidente · Apr 4, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

This illustrates my point. You don't give a single Biblical argument for pre-trib. You assume that the wrath is so big, that God can't protect the saints from it. The Bible already lets us know that the church will be here when Jesus comes back, executing wrath on them that believe not, when he comes to give the saints rest.

If II Thessalonians lets us know that the church will be here when Jesus comes back and executes wrath on the wicked, the argument that 'the wrath will be too great' doesn't hold much water.

Do you believe that God is powerful and wise enough to pour out wrath without pouring it on unbelievers?

Also, do you think the 'tribulational saints' are 'appointed unto wrath'? Why is it okay for them to experience wrath but not you?

There is still no evidence of pre-trib in this verse. It says rescues us from the coming wrath. It does NOT say keep us from being on the earth when God pours out His wrath on the unreprentant.

This is more circular reasoning. Pre-Trib assumes that the way God keeps us from wrath is to rapture us out first, but the Bible does not teach that.

Based on the explicit teaching of scripture. How do you reconcile pre-trib with II Thessalonians 1? Why does this chapter tell us that Jesus will give the church rest when he comes executing judgment on them that believe not? Why does I Corinthians say that the dead are made alive at Jesus' coming? Why doesn't it say that the dead are made alive 7 years before His coming? Where does the Bible teach two more comings of Christ?

No proof for pre-trib here at all. The dead in Christ shall rise first and they that are alive and remain shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. So at the rapture, the saints are there in the air.

If you read it literally, he is talking about the church in a particular city. Anyway, pre-trib arguments are always stuff like this, not as heavy as following direct statements about the timing of the coming of Christ.

Robert Banks explained how Paul used 'church' in his writings. Over time, he began to use it 'universally' for 'the church throughout time and space' as Paul put it. Early on, it was used for individual assemblies. If John's terminology uses 'church' for literal groups of people who assemble and 'saints' for all believers, this fits perfectly with the book.

Paul does use the word 'church' to refer to those who will be here when Jesus comes back and executes judgment on them that know not God in II Thessalonians 1. It's in the Bible. Just not in the book of Revelation.

Nikki84 · Apr 4, 2016

There is no rapture and any bible believing Christian should know this. The caught up in the air verse refers to the 2nd coming not some silly rapture. Read the bible, not Left Behind

presidente · Apr 4, 2016

Nikki84 said:

Rapture means being caught up in the air. If you say you don't believe in the rapture, you are saying you don't believe the saints will be caught up in the air.

It's like saying you don't believe in regeneration, you just believe in being saved and being born again.

presidente · Apr 4, 2016

The command to 'comfort one another with these words' is about comforting those with loved ones who have fallen asleep in the world. The context is not about comforting people who read Hal Lindsey's book or watched the Left Behind series.

Maybe pre-trib is more 'comfortable' to Christians uncomfortable with the idea of suffering. That's a pretty common trait among us humans, and probably the reason the Bible teaches us to be prepared to suffer.

Nikki84 · Apr 4, 2016

presidente said:

I believe in the 2nd coming. Not some silly scenario where ppl just disappear

Armini3 · Apr 4, 2016

"In a multitude of words, sin is not absent" I.e. (above) everything you debate its paragraph after paragraph write a book already an let that be the end of it...Cuz if a believer is rooted in Christ and walking in the spirit-whether as (you believe) pre-Trib or others believe something else its comes down to having eyes of expectancy to his coming. Being ready the spirit of God isn't going to leave a believer hanging out to dry.

Ahwatukee said:

EArsToHear, Just keep watching what happens to the our monetary system as it continues to evolve. You will see more reliance on electronic crediting and debiting. When that beast is revealed, then the other methods of buying and selling will be made obsolete and the only method of electronic payment will be via his mark and without it no one will be able credit and debit their bank accounts, which is how he "forces" all both great and small, rich and poor, free and slave to receive it. To simplify it some, what if the only way a person could buy and sell electronically was by having a card or a phone app and cash and checks were obsolete? Then only those who had those devices could make purchases, right? Well then, take it to the next step. At some point during the beasts reign, cash, checks, cards and phone apps will be made obsolete, leaving only that mark. It will force people to either receive it in order to continue to be able to live or reject it. Those who reject, which will be the great tribulation saints, will do so for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God.

I have been following this from the beginning when the first ATM's came out, followed by the UPC system, followed by the point of sale (POS) and now people are able to credit and debit each others accounts electronically using phone apps and card readers that fit right into their phones. And now the technology for chip implant is being used as you saw when you watched the video, if you watched it. That this technology even exists is a testimony to the truth and accuracy of God's word.

Those who interpret the mark, the hand and the forehead as being symbolic also claim that one has received the mark by observing the Sabbath on Sunday. That said, it is interesting to me that of the letters that were written to the churches, not once is the Sabbath mentioned in regards to keeping it on the wrong day. In fact, the word Sabbath does not even appear in the book of Revelation. Now, one would think that if the observance of the Sabbath on Sunday was spiritually the receiving of the mark of the beast, then it would be mentioned somewhere in Revelation, but it is nowhere to be found. Surely something that would be so detrimental to one's eternal life would be mentioned in the letters to the seven churches and elsewhere.

The mark of the beast will be just as scripture states, a literal mark in the right hand or forehead and without it no one will be able to buy or sell and that because that mark will replace the current devices used for electronic crediting and debiting, with the others being made obsolete. If you continue to no believe just continue to watch this technology, for it will continue to evolve towards that literal mark. The world is going to see the use of electronic crediting and debiting increase and cash and checks decrease. Just keep watching and it will prove itself!

The "Rapture"?

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