The "Rapture"?

DP · Apr 16, 2016

I've already shown a problem with that interpretation from the Book of Joel...

In Joel, the locust army is a separate idea from the northern army that comes upon Israel on the final day of this world.

The locust army is described as when one of them falls upon a sword, they are not harmed, which is pointing to the idea of the locust army as only an analogy or metaphor that God uses for the working by the wicked in the last days, especially for the tribulation. This is why the locust events of Rev.9 happen on the 5th and 6th trumpets while the later literal army that comes out of the northern quarters upon Israel on the last day doesn't happen until the final 7th trumpet and 7th vial.

Thus the Rev.9 locusts of 200 million is a metphorical analogy for the workers of iniquity during the tribulation, and not the Gog/Magog army out of the north of Ezekiel 38-39 that's to come upon Israel on the last day of this world when Jesus returns.

tanakh · Apr 16, 2016

GenJesus said:

The question really is not whether the rapture will happen or not but when it will happen before,during or after the tribulation. Problem is the fixation with the word Rapture. The Bibles main emphasis is on the resurrection of the dead. Living believers will be transformed and taken with them to meet the lord in the air. Another problem is that the Pre Trib
Rapture believers add a number of other teachings with their view, like the tribulation saints, a term not found in the Bible
that creates a second class body of Christ which all have to be killed to get to Heaven as there is no sign of them being raptured in Pre Trib doctrine.

HeraldtheNews · Apr 16, 2016

Chuckt said:

What a beautiful song! Im going to pass that on to the local radio station--

Ahwatukee · Apr 16, 2016

Hello tanakh,

I would have to greatly disagree with you regarding the term tribulation saints not being found in the Bible. Please see the following:

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,"

The very fact that the elder is introducing this group would demonstrate that they are not the church, for John was told to write to the seven church in chapters 1 thru 3. Likewise, the fact that when the elder asked John who this group was and John said that he did not know, also demonstrates that they are not the church. The fact that the word "church" is solely used throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then is never seen again from chapter 4 onward, would also demonstrate that the church is no longer on the earth. The church is never mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath, but the only word used is "Saints" ergo, great tribulation saints.

Correction, they don't have to be killed, but it is because they will be on earth during the time of the beasts reign and will keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and because they will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark. The apostles and the first century church suffered the same thing for their faith. Also, Rev.20:4-6 is where the great tribulation saints are shown to be resurrected, which is not the same resurrection as 1 Thes.4:13-18. If you will notice, 1 Thes.4:13-18 involves both the resurrection of the dead and the changing and catching away of the living believer's where the whole group meets the Lord in the air. In opposition, the resurrection mentioned in Rev.20:4-6 is only a resurrection, as there is no mention of living believer's being changed and caught up.

PlainWord · Apr 16, 2016

abcdef said:

Thanks my friend. Absolutely, I do believe end time events has started for many reasons. Rev 13 tells of an evil empire (which was here before, dies, then returns) forming to the north of Israel. The identity of such empire (head on the beast) when compared to Daniel shows it to come from the area of Turkey through Iran. This area is largely the same area controlled by original Babylon. This area ties to Eze 38-39, Joel 1-2, etc.

There is only one religion supported by the countries of Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran. This religion beheads. This religion has a false prophet. This religion is followed by the "kings of the earth." This religion is the largest false religion on the planet. This religion worships in a manner identical to original Babylon. The peoples who follow this religion trace their origins back to Babylon. This religion has as it's symbol the crescent moon. This religion uses the lunar cycle as a basis for its calendar. Those following this religion have a 4,000 year history of hating Israel.

An Islamic State was declared on June 29, 2014 to the North of Israel. Not saying for sure yet that ISIS is this final head of the beast which returns. It could be Iran, it could be a Turkey gone bad. It could be a coalescing of various groups (which are the ten horns). But the leader of ISIS is acting just like the "Mouth of this Beast" in his preposterous words, his threats against the Church and Israel, etc. Libya is said to be one of the nations which come up against Israel and Libya has sworn allegiance to ISIS.

If it is ISIS, no country will stop it although many "wage war" which is what we are seeing thus far. Love you Brother and glad to have another on here who has "eyes to see."

PlainWord · Apr 16, 2016

If I am correct in saying that the Great Tribulation is against Israel using the "northern army" and that God's wrath is poured out after and is aimed at those who attack Israel then there would be no need for the Rapture to snatch Christians off the planet prior to this attack, right? Popeye?

PlainWord · Apr 16, 2016

DP said:

DP, There are two armies being discussed in Joel. The locust army, I agree, is absolutely metaphorical. It describes a devouring army that wipes out everything. The locust army is found in Joel 1:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]For a nation has come up against My land, Strong, and without number; His teeth are the teeth of a lion, And he has the fangs of a fierce lion. [SUP]7 [/SUP]He has laid waste My vine, And ruined My fig tree; He has stripped it bare and thrown it away; Its branches are made white.

This is the Northern Islamic Alliance which will rape and pillage Israel. This army is the same as the one discussed in Eze 38-39 as Gog and its allies. There isn't going to be several future massive, near-total destructive, attacks on Israel. There is just one and it has been foretold by nearly every major and minor prophet but from different aspects and angles.

The army of Joel 2 is the Lord's army. This army is indestructible and is not cut down. Instead of locusts, this army resembles horses. THIS IS GOD'S ARMY, 200 million strong, and they are the ones which kill 1/3 of Mankind in Rev 9 (The 6th Trumpet).

Joel 2 (truncated for effect): For the day of the Lord is coming, For it is at hand: [SUP]2 [/SUP]A day of darkness and gloominess...A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them... [SUP]3 [/SUP]A fire devours before them, And behind them a flame burns; The land is like the Garden of Eden before them, And behind them a desolate wilderness; Surely nothing shall escape them. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Their appearance is like the appearance of horses; And like swift steeds, so they run.

Compare to Rev 9:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million... [SUP]17 [/SUP]And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. [SUP]18 [/SUP]By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.

Notice the devouring fire going out before and behind in both passages?

Satan's army is the Locust Army (5th Trumpet)
God's army are the horses (6th Trumpet)

By this point in time, after the horrors of the Islamic Caliphate, which is just getting started, Muslims will make up 1/3 of mankind. They are 1/4 now.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

DP · Apr 16, 2016

PlainWord said:

But you just contradicted yourself, because you agreed the locust army is metaphorical, but in that latter paragraph you assign that "nation" the locusts represent to an Islamic alliance? You don't understand the locust metaphor, because it's figurative for a certain people that work against God's people in Jerusalem during the tribulation, which we were given the hint who in the Book of Daniel:

Dan 11:23
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
KJV

Dan 11:30
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
KJV

Dan 11:32
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
KJV

Muslims in Jerusalem are not going to work with that coming false deception to establish the old covenant sacrifices again per that; the requirement is for that to be certain ones among the orthodox Jewish leaders. It's about the "tares". That's the "nation" the locusts represent in Joel. This working has nothing... to do with the Armageddon army of Gog/Magog.

So don't act as if you and I are saying the same thing, because we are NOT, and doing that is to mislead.

Impossible.

Your meaning of "the Lord's army" in Joel 2 suggests it's Jesus with His army from heaven coming when it is not! The locust army is what God is calling His "great army" that He said He sent among His people, which the idea is as a PUNISHMENT:

Joel 2:25
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm,My great army which I sent among you.
KJV

That verse CLEARLY shows God calling the locusts that ate up the wealth of His people as "My great army which I sent among you." The idea is He sent it among them as a punishment! That is NOT Christ's army. You are all mixed up and not properly reading that verse.

DP · Apr 16, 2016

PlainWord said:

That above is STILL about the locust army God sends at the end upon His people as a punishment upon the world. That idea of the fire devours before them and leaving nothing behind is figurative for how thorough their takeover of the wealth and power of His people will be for the tribulation. It's about Satan's servants in control during the tribulation. Those work PRIOR to Christ's coming.

Yeah, the fire and brimstone that comes out of their WHAT? Their MOUTHS per the Rev.9 Scripture. That means lies to cause deception, like the flood of waters idea in Rev.12 that comes out of the serpent's MOUTH! That's the same locust army described in the first part of Rev.9. Their job is to work the main deception for the trib along with Satan the dragon.

That is 6th Trumpet - 2 Woe timing. When does the battle of Armageddon on the last day happen per Jesus? On the 7th final Vial per Rev.16. Can't you figure out how it's impossible for that locust army of Rev.9 to be the Gogl/Magog army that comes out of the northern quarters upon Israel on the day of The Lord when Jesus comes??? And per Rev.11, Jesus doesn't come until the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period! Can't you see the difference?

PlainWord · Apr 16, 2016

Before the Beast attacks Israel in the final days, it attacks and kills 1/3 of all Christians as we see from the 4th trumpet. The timing of this slaughter of Christians is placed before the attack on Israel (which Jesus calls, "Great Tribulation"). This is further evidence of no pre-Trib (pre-Israel attack) Rapture. Our brothers and sisters in Christ who are killed have to be here to be killed and then shown as the Great Multitude in Heaven.

Here's where 1/3 of all Christians get killed.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

We Christians, are the LIGHT OF THE WORLD, after Christ of course.

Philippians 2:15
that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world.

The symbolism is obvious, yet scary. Remember Jesus says this, which happens BEFORE the Great Tribulation of Israel.

Mat 24: [SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

We are told when this happens in two related passages. John confirms Jesus.

Mat 24: [SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Rev 11: [SUP]7 [/SUP]When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

We are the Witnesses to Christ. Once we finish the Great Commission by preaching the Gospel in all the world, the end will come and the Great Tribulation will soon begin. Christian genocide has already started in the Middle East and our US government has already acknowledged it.

Christian genocide is happening now | National Catholic Reporter

For many of us who strive to seriously practice faith in Jesus Christ, and to extend that practice out into the marketplace, the political square and society at large, persecution rarely means more than being ridiculed, verbally harassed, and to a certain degree socially and politically marginalized.

But for so many other Christians throughout the world who courageously refuse to deny Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior -- with all that that means -- persecution means torture, rape, enslavement and death.

In his well-researched 2013 book, "The Global War on Christians," Catholic journalist John Allen cites studies that indicate the number of Christians killed for the faith every year ranges from 7,300 to 100,000 worldwide.

For you pre-tribbers out there who think we are to be raptured, and not killed, what do you say of those 7,300 to 100,000 per year who are being killed now???? Why don't they get to share in the glorious so-call Pre-Trib Rapture? They are giving up their lives for their faith. They refuse to deny Jesus to save their lives.

Revelation 12:11

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

How incredibly arrogant we western Christians must come across as sounding when we preach the Pre-Trib Rapture nonsense to our Brothers and Sisters around the world when they are dying in the streets right now. Christ Jesus promises us TRIBULATION yet sadly, many of us preach a "Fly Away" doctrine. Many more of us are going to die before Christ returns. That's not my prediction. It's words from the mouth of He who died for us and asks us to do the same for Him.

I'm just trying to warn us all to be prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice. Remember the 10 Virgins? The Bridegroom doesn't come back as early as the 5 foolish virgins thought. He comes later. Let's make sure we have enough oil (strength of the Holy Spirit) to wait.

DP · Apr 16, 2016

PlainWord said:

No, it does not mean that. Your idea is complete conjecture. The 4th trumpet is pointing to eclipses of the sun and moon if anything.

Didn't you understand Rev.9 how the locusts are not allowed to hurt any green thing on earth? and in those days men will seek death, but won't find it? The trib time is going to be a time of world peace and safety like Paul showed in 1 Thess.5. There's nothing written pointing to how many Christians will be killed during the trib. With how many Christians outside the West being killed today by Muslims, as it's been for a while now, we're still not in the trib time yet, so what does that show? Too many brethren are obsessed with the idea of Christians being killed during the trib, which some use a scare tactic like pre-trib. We may expect persecution in this world period like Paul said, and not just during the trib.

tooldtocare · Apr 16, 2016

There were approximately 300 million human being living on this planet when Jesus was born. So according to the statement; “only threw Christ can one be saved” all living persons went to hell because they could to be saved from something they knew nothing of.

Hell must have been overflowing

PlainWord · Apr 16, 2016

DP,

You are so close on many levels to getting it ALL correct. You have the Pre-Trib Rapture nonsense correctly diagnosed so I give you credit for that. But there are certain areas, where you speak so passionately about, where you are slightly off. I'll keep working on you until you get it right.

It is the Muslims who are the deceived!!! Satan deceived them. Their whole faith is ANTI-Christian. We preach to "Love thine enemies." They preach, "Kill our enemies."

[SUP]32 [/SUP]Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery;

Who do you think will do wickedly against the holy covenant? These are the ones he will corrupt with flattery.

The Day of the Lord is not the Return of Jesus. It is the Return of God, the Father. God comes back first with an army to defeat Gog at the 6th Trumpet. The below lesson is given to us 6 times - get it? 6th Trumpet.

Psalm 110:1

The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

Christ is to do what? He is to Sit at the Father's right hand until the Father has made the earth Christ's footstool. Then Christ can come and reign.

BTW, God is never seen. He can't be seen. But He gives His voice before His army. Christ is seen when He returns, shortly after. This is the FATHER'S ARMY and HIS VOICE>

[SUP]11 [/SUP]The Lord gives voice before His army,
For His camp is very great;
For strong is the One who executes His word.
For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible;
Who can endure it?

tooldtocare · Apr 16, 2016

HeraldtheNews said:

Add this to your list

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNq_DTmVCWs

-

PlainWord · Apr 16, 2016

DP said:

LOL. The Sun and Moon cannot eclipse at the same time

. It is an impossibility.

The Locusts don't kill Christians. 1/3 are killed before this at the 4th trumpet. The Great Tribulation is the attack on Israel. That's why Christ warns those in JUDEA to flee. He doesn't tell anyone else to flee. Wonder why? Because the attack is coming to Judea. Common man, this is so obvious and common sense.

PlainWord · Apr 16, 2016

The time of the peace and safety comes after the Gr. Trib but before the Return of the Lord.

The Trib is a time of peace??? Tell that to Israel.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Tribulation NEVER means peace. Does the above sound like peace to you???

An exact number we don't have but it's a lot:

I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands...“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

There's Tribulation and there's Great Tribulation.

PlainWord · Apr 16, 2016

...the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them... [SUP]4 [/SUP]But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

How could this day overtake any Christian on earth as a thief if there was a Rapture before this day? If there was a rapture, all the people Paul was writing to would be taken. Paul is writing to believers, not unsaved left behinders.[SUP]

5 [/SUP]You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

Watch and be sober in heaven? Sons of Light and day are on earth being the Light of the Earth. The unbelievers are asleep, living in darkness. Those awake and sober are believers waiting for the Coming of the Lord. They would not be here if they were taken earlier before the Sudden Destruction.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

There's no need to have hope before the Day of the Lord if we are taken before the Tribulation.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, God isn't coming with wrath on us, but on those who attacked Israel. This is clear from multiple passages such as Eze 38. We won't be where the wrath is coming.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Paul only gives two options, 1) awake or alive, 2) Asleep or dead with our souls in heaven. But shouldn't there be a third option for the Raptured? The raptured are transformed. They are neither dead or alive in physical bodies. Wake or sleep, transformed are not mentioned. Nowhere is there a distinction found between a Raptured Saint and a Tribulation Saint. This concept is not found anywhere.

tanakh · Apr 17, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Hello tanakh,

I would have to greatly disagree with you regarding the term tribulation saints not being found in the Bible. Please see the following:

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,"

The very fact that the elder is introducing this group would demonstrate that they are not the church, for John was told to write to the seven church in chapters 1 thru 3. Likewise, the fact that when the elder asked John who this group was and John said that he did not know, also demonstrates that they are not the church. The fact that the word "church" is solely used throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then is never seen again from chapter 4 onward, would also demonstrate that the church is no longer on the earth. The church is never mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath, but the only word used is "Saints" ergo, great tribulation saints.

Correction, they don't have to be killed, but it is because they will be on earth during the time of the beasts reign and will keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and because they will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark. The apostles and the first century church suffered the same thing for their faith. Also, Rev.20:4-6 is where the great tribulation saints are shown to be resurrected, which is not the same resurrection as 1 Thes.4:13-18. If you will notice, 1 Thes.4:13-18 involves both the resurrection of the dead and the changing and catching away of the living believer's where the whole group meets the Lord in the air. In opposition, the resurrection mentioned in Rev.20:4-6 is only a resurrection, as there is no mention of living believer's being changed and caught up.

Im feeling tired and lazy to find what I think see PlainWords Posting number 536

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The "Rapture"?

DP

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