The "Rapture"?

[presidente]

The Rapture and the return of Christ are two separate events.

Would you agree with me that the resurrection of the dead happens right before the rapture of the church?

The resurrection occurs 'at his coming.' So how can you place the rapture BEFORE his coming, if Paul teaches that the resurrection occurs 'at his coming' and that the dead in Christ will rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up to meet the Lord together into the air?

First the one who hinders must be removed before the son of perdition can be revealed. Who is it that hinders? It is the church. It is the only time the church is referred to in masculine as every time it is the feminine meaning the bride. But the Holy Spirit say's HE that hinders must be removed. Please explain who He is?

First of all, I don't quite follow your argument. Are you saying that he that restrains must refers to the church because the word does not agree in grammatical gender with 'ekklesia'?

Also, I notice that a lot of pre-tribbers read 'the church' or the idea of 'the Holy Spirit' into this passage, then treat the verse as if it argues for pre-trib. The verse doesn't teach pre-trib. Their presupposition does.

 

[abcdef]

Hi RobbyEarl, If I may,

This was written about 50 ad, about 20 years before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans as Jesus had predicted it.
But who could destroy the Holy temple when God was protecting it? Similar events had happened before with Babylon and others when Israel had disobeyed God. Now Israel had rejected the gospel. At the time of this writing, the hand of God was still over Jerusalem, but for how long? About 20 yrs until GOD removed His protection and took His hand away, then Caesar conquered Jerusalem and destroyed it.

Caesar (beast is a city Rev 17:18) the "son of perdition" defiled the temple with the image of Caesar and proclaimed Caesar as God (Lk 21). This Caesar was obviously not destroyed by the brightness of His coming.
The Caesar that is destroyed by the brightness of His coming is not the original beast (nation, Dan 2, Rev 13), but the beast renewed from out of the b. pit (renewed Caesar-Rome).

As far as the church was concerned they were all told by Jesus to flee to the mountains when they see these things happen (Lk 21:21), so if they all run out of Jerusalem then God would remove His protection over it and it would be destroyed.
The Holy Spirit is in Christians and they left Jerusalem, you could say that the Holy Spirit left Jerusalem. God is the Holy Spirit so might say God left Jerusalem. If God left Jerusalem then the blessings of His protection would leave with Him.

So, the one that is taken away is the "Spirit of God (love) over Jerusalem", His protection, His love, His blessings.
The son of perdition is Caesar.

 

[Ahwatukee]

n Revelation 13:10 and 14:12, we see that the saints written about in Revelation have faith. They are believers. So do you think they will suffer God's wrath? Do you think they are 'appointed unto wrath'? Are they objects of God's wrath? Going through the tribulation does not equal being under God's wrath.

Hello Presidente,

Yes, the great tribulation saints will be exposed to God's wrath, as is demonstrated in the following scriptures:

"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.Therefore, they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. ‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’ ”

* Never again will they hunger

Famine:
"And when He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, "Come!" And I looked, and behold, a black horse, and the one sitting on it having a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard something like a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, "A choenix of wheat for a denarius, and three choenixes of barley for a denarius; and you should not injure the oil and the wine."

* never again will they thirst (Contaminated Water and water turned to blood towards the end):

"And the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star fell out of heaven, burning like a torch. And it fell upon a third of the rivers, and upon the springs of waters. And the name the star is called Wormwood. And a third of the waters became wormwood, and many of the men died from the waters, because they were made bitter.

"And the third poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of the waters, and they became blood."

* The sun will not beat down on them, nor any scorching heat.

"The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire.They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

The above scriptures demonstrate that, because they are on the earth during the time of God's wrath, the great tribulation saints will have been exposed to God's wrath regarding hunger, thirst and being scorched by the sun as referred to in Rev.7:16.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am fairly sure this refers to Michael who is now restraining. It is verse 7 and of course it is a small "h". Michael is not a deity, he is an Angel

I am fairly sure it is The Holy Spirit..

Michael is strong, But strong enough to hold off all satans armies??

Only God has that power

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wrong Israel was destroyed in 70 AD although Michael was there protector and did not become a nation again til 1967, Michael can do nothing that God doesn't tell Him to do. It is the church that restrains and the preaching of the gospel or God would have already destroyed America as He did Israel.

I am sure america will destroyed soon enough.. America did not replace Isreal. And israel was not destroyed, She is being punished.

 

[Agricola]

I am sure america will destroyed soon enough.. America did not replace Isreal. And israel was not destroyed, She is being punished.

Spot on!

I have not got time to write a full report on this, I have this on another post somewhere, but essentially it is all about punishment and disobedience. The Jews have always been a very disobedient and non-beleiving lot through Bible. God punished them for this disobedience through the Babylon enslavement. This came to end, but still had conditions to it, that is for Jews to all return home to the promised lands and rebuild and repent.

Most preferred to stay in Babylon and those that did return did not really repent, so God extended the punishment by 7 times, which is found in Leviticus and other places. This extended exile without a nation came to end in middle of the 20th Century, and low and behold, Jews get thier nation back agian, just as prophecy stated.

USA is being punished for going against Israel, Hurricane Katrina was not about gay parades and New Orleans, it was about being instrumental in Israel giving up land and rule in Gaza.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I am fairly sure it is The Holy Spirit..

Michael is strong, But strong enough to hold off all satans armies??

Only God has that power

The One who is restraining could be none other than the Holy Spirit, for not only is he restraining the man of lawlessness from being revealed until his proper time, but He is also holding back the full force of sin, which will greatly increase when that Antichrist comes.

 

[PlainWord]

Ahwatukee my dear fellow,

Again, this is one of the biggest errors in interpreting Revelation, that is, people read what the explanation that is right in front of them and go looking in the OT to find out what it means. The angel is telling John right there in the scripture that the heads are hills/mountains.

You had better consider OT prophesy when attempting to understand Revelation because John certainly did when writing it. Almost every symbolic usage in Revelation can be found in the OT. Just about every prophesy of Revelation was already foretold by the OT prophets but in clearer language. John used OT symbolic words such as BEAST, SEA, CUP, MOUNTAIN, SHIPS, TREES, GRASS, FIRE, LAMPSTAND, etc, etc. All of these can be found in the OT.

You get so caught up in the 7 hills (really "mountains) as being Rome and by extension the RCC that you fail to consider all the other clues that point away from the RCC as being Mystery Babylon. FYI, for the sake of argument, let's assume "heads" = "hills" or "mountains." Rome sits on 7 hills but the Vatican sits on 1 hill. There are 17 cities that are said to sit on 7 hills and Mecca is one of them. So, let's say that Rome and/or the RCC fits this one clue, well, so does Mecca. There are at least 20 other clues given and the REAL Mystery Babylon must fit them all!!! Agreed?

So let's consider some of the other clues. Look at these verses:

Rev 18: “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen..."

Isa 21: Then he answered and said, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen!

Isaiah foretells that Biblical Elam (modern Iran) will nuke and destroy most (if not all) of Saudi Arabia (at least some key places in Saudi Arabia) mentioned here.

“The burden against Dumah” (Isaiah 21:11)
“The burden against Arabia” (Isaiah 21:13)
“All the glory of Kedar will fail” (Isaiah 21:16).

These are all in Arabia, which is destroyed by Iran “Elam” (Isaiah 21:2). Isn't it interesting that the Iranian nuclear deal all but assures that Iran will develop nuclear weapons and that Saudi Arabia is Iran's #1 Arab enemy? I find that more than just a coincidence.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]“They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’

So you think Iran is going to nuke the Vatican? It is just as important to know who does the destroying as it is to know the identity of the destroyed.

I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns....[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

The ten horns on the beast will destroy the Harlot religion and her city. So you have to tell me what Empire with 10 kings is going to rise up and destroy the Vatican and the Catholic religion? What Empire that has been supporting/promoting Catholicism stops doing so and turns on its own faith and destroys it? Iran never supported (carried) Catholicism. What Catholic countries will unite to wipe out Rome?

Now let me ask you the same set of questions about Islam. Are there forces out there who are attempting to alter "peaceful" Islam and turn it into something else? Are there Muslims (followers of Islam) who want to destroy Mecca and its host country? Are there fanatics who hate the Saudi Kings and their luxury? Who throws dust on their heads to mourn, Europeans or Muslims?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Spot on!

I have not got time to write a full report on this, I have this on another post somewhere, but essentially it is all about punishment and disobedience. The Jews have always been a very disobedient and non-beleiving lot through Bible. God punished them for this disobedience through the Babylon enslavement. This came to end, but still had conditions to it, that is for Jews to all return home to the promised lands and rebuild and repent.

Most preferred to stay in Babylon and those that did return did not really repent, so God extended the punishment by 7 times, which is found in Leviticus and other places. This extended exile without a nation came to end in middle of the 20th Century, and low and behold, Jews get thier nation back agian, just as prophecy stated.

Lev 26 is still not fulfilled as Israel is still in sin, and is still being punished, thus, no peace in the land.

as well as many OT prophesies concerning Israel have yet to be fulfilled.

USA is being punished for going against Israel, Hurricane Katrina was not about gay parades and New Orleans, it was about being instrumental in Israel giving up land and rule in Gaza.

Katrina was just the result of a world going through growing pains. It will get worse all over the world..

 

[Ahwatukee]

You had better consider OT prophesy when attempting to understand Revelation because John certainly did when writing it.

Hi PlainWord,

With all due respect, regarding your statement above, you are already in error. John is not the author of Revelation. None of the events described in Revelation comes from his own thoughts or imagination, for regarding this, Jesus told John the following:

"Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later."

The above scripture is in fact the key to understanding the time in which the events of wrath described in Revelation. That said, John wrote down exactly what he heard and saw. He did not add his own meanings or topics, nor did he consult the OT and put in his own understanding. He wrote down exactly what he saw and heard, the visions that God showed him.

 

[PlainWord]

Hello Presidente,

Yes, the great tribulation saints will be exposed to God's wrath, as is demonstrated in the following scriptures:

"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.Therefore, they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. ‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’ ”

* Never again will they hunger

Famine:
"And when He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, "Come!" And I looked, and behold, a black horse, and the one sitting on it having a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard something like a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, "A choenix of wheat for a denarius, and three choenixes of barley for a denarius; and you should not injure the oil and the wine."

* never again will they thirst (Contaminated Water and water turned to blood towards the end):

"And the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star fell out of heaven, burning like a torch. And it fell upon a third of the rivers, and upon the springs of waters. And the name the star is called Wormwood. And a third of the waters became wormwood, and many of the men died from the waters, because they were made bitter.

"And the third poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of the waters, and they became blood."

* The sun will not beat down on them, nor any scorching heat.

"The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire.They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

The above scriptures demonstrate that, because they are on the earth during the time of God's wrath, the great tribulation saints will have been exposed to God's wrath regarding hunger, thirst and being scorched by the sun as referred to in Rev.7:16.

OMG WOW!! God wants to punish and kill the "Tribulation Saints?" Seriously?? Quite the opposite. God's wrath is against the BEAST and its kingdom/followers, which are not Catholics but are Muslims. God actually warns His people to get out of the areas where He will pour His wrath.

Rev 18: [SUP]4 [/SUP]And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

FYI in case you didn't know, "GOD'S PEOPLE" is ISRAEL as we see here:

Ezekiel 38:16

You will come up against My people Israel like a cloud, to cover the land. It will be in the latter days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me, when I am hallowed in you, O Gog, before their eyes.”

God protects and warns His people and tells them what to do when He is punishing the wicked around them. Did God not instruct Moses to have His people put blood over their doors so the Angel of Death would pass over? Did not God instruct His people what to do before He destroyed the original Babylon?

Jer 51: [SUP]45 [/SUP]“My people, go out of the midst of her! And let everyone deliver himself from the fierce anger of the Lord.

God tells His PEOPLE, to basically GET OUT!!

We are told who/what God's Wrath is direct at here and it isn't the so-called Tribulation Saints:

Rev 16: [SUP]10 [/SUP]Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness.

It;s the BEAST and those following the BEAST that are subject to GOD'S WRATH.

Rev 14: “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, [SUP]10 [/SUP]he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

It's those who worship the beast who get God's wrath, not His Saints. I never heard of such a preposterous notion!!! The Saints are given comfort in the next verse:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”

The Saints who die are blessed!!! Would God subject Saints to His wrath by killing them then bless them at the same time for being patient and faithful? Dude, you are scaring me.

 

[PlainWord]

Hi PlainWord,

With all due respect, regarding your statement above, you are already in error. John is not the author of Revelation. None of the events described in Revelation comes from his own thoughts or imagination, for regarding this, Jesus told John the following:

"Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later."

The above scripture is in fact the key to understanding the time in which the events of wrath described in Revelation. That said, John wrote down exactly what he heard and saw. He did not add his own meanings or topics, nor did he consult the OT and put in his own understanding. He wrote down exactly what he saw and heard, the visions that God showed him.

Of course God showed Him what to write. Did you forget who John wrote to?

[SUP]4 [/SUP]John, to the seven churches which are in Asia.

Were the readers of Revelation divinely inspired to understand just as John was divinely inspired to write? John was told to write in OT symbols so that his audience would understand. He was to use symbols familiar to them and to us who read and study the Word. For anyone else, it will remain a mystery.

Apparently you continue to refuse to study the OT symbols so that you can properly apply them to Revelation. I guess this is why you see God slaughtering His faithful servants and such. This is why you think RC Priests will one day pick up machetes and go around beheading anyone who won't become Catholic while ignoring those of Islam already doing it.

 

[presidente]

Hello Presidente,

Yes, the great tribulation saints will be exposed to God's wrath, as is demonstrated in the following scriptures:

I can't see anything in any of the verses that you quoted that indicated that God is angry with the saints who go through the great tribulation. You seem to be interpreting 'wrath' to mean 'great tribulation', but that is not what the word means.

 

[Ahwatukee]

[/I]
I can't see anything in any of the verses that you quoted that indicated that God is angry with the saints who go through the great tribulation. You seem to be interpreting 'wrath' to mean 'great tribulation', but that is not what the word means. [/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

Hi Presidente,

God does not have to be angry with the GTS. It is simply because they will be on the earth that they are exposed to God's wrath and since it affects the entire earth, they will also be exposed. This is in fact why Jesus and the apostles warn believer's to be prepared, continuing in faith and sowing to the spirit, so that when the Lord comes to gather the church, they will not be living according to the sinful nature which would trap them during that time of wrath (Lk.21:34-36)

"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap.For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth.. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

[Ahwatukee]

Of course God showed Him what to write. Did you forget who John wrote to?

[SUP]4 [/SUP]John, to the seven churches which are in Asia.

Were the readers of Revelation divinely inspired to understand just as John was divinely inspired to write? John was told to write in OT symbols so that his audience would understand. He was to use symbols familiar to them and to us who read and study the Word. For anyone else, it will remain a mystery.

Apparently you continue to refuse to study the OT symbols so that you can properly apply them to Revelation. I guess this is why you see God slaughtering His faithful servants and such. This is why you think RC Priests will one day pick up machetes and go around beheading anyone who won't become Catholic while ignoring those of Islam already doing it.

John wrote exactly what Christ told him to write in the letter's to the seven churches. Again, it was not of John's own information. Also, I study the OT very much thank you. Daniel is the sister book to Revelation and I know the symbolism very well.

 

[popeye]

Would you agree with me that the resurrection of the dead happens right before the rapture of the church?

The resurrection occurs 'at his coming.' So how can you place the rapture BEFORE his coming, if Paul teaches that the resurrection occurs 'at his coming' and that the dead in Christ will rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up to meet the Lord together into the air?




First of all, I don't quite follow your argument. Are you saying that he that restrains must refers to the church because the word does not agree in grammatical gender with 'ekklesia'?

Also, I notice that a lot of pre-tribbers read 'the church' or the idea of 'the Holy Spirit' into this passage, then treat the verse as if it argues for pre-trib. The verse doesn't teach pre-trib. Their presupposition does.

Then your deal is impossible.

During the GT Jesus harvests a group of " ripe fruit",possibly Jews,from where he sits on a cloud.

(possibly rev 14)

Not to mention the 144k are harvested in the same chapter....DURING THE GT.

No matter how you guys slice it,your deal is 100% impossible.

 

[popeye]

[/I]
I can't see anything in any of the verses that you quoted that indicated that God is angry with the saints who go through the great tribulation. You seem to be interpreting 'wrath' to mean 'great tribulation', but that is not what the word means. [/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

God judged Israel through foreign armies/nations.

God judges in the GT through the AC and the other three horsemen.

If those are not wrath,then your wrath is not wrath either,for the flying scorpions are demonic and ORIGINATE FROM HELL,NOT HEAVEN.

YOU GUYS CONSISTENTLY FALL IN YOUR OWN NONBINLICAL TRAPS.

HUMAN LOGIC WON'T PRODUCE BIBLICAL REVELATION.

 

[popeye]

Wow,these two new ingredients that I had overlooked,really are the final nail in the hopeless false notion of a postrib rapture.

Game over guys.

Game

Set


Match

 

[popeye]

One thing about the pretrib rapture doctrine. It puts the whole deal on Jesus,where our focus belongs.

This should be the core of any believer.This the correct starting place.
Any other position will fail.

I can not fathom a position,at this late hour,that PURPOSEFULLY,places a hope that one will overcome through some "preparedness", other than being full of oil,as were the five wise virgins,for even the foolish agreed in the grooms soon appearance.

You guys do not even anticipate the King. You anticipate the false King,and mock his wise virgins.


As ridiculous as that is,it pales,to me,in the notion that you guys see no red flags in the anahilation of your position,nor any red flags that your position has you anticipating a false Christ.

I pray alongside Jesus.

"Come Lord Jesus" ...."Your bride awaits you"

 

[Nikki84]

Wow,these two new ingredients that I had overlooked,really are the final nail in the hopeless false notion of a postrib rapture.

Game over guys.

Game

Set


Match

You guys can't really handle that some people do not accept your man made rapture.