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There are some that say salvation can be lost through disobedience and living carnally. So let's throw out the idea that salvation can be lost and let's focus on the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ to do our best to present our bodies as living sacrifices holy and acceptable to him. Even when we fail, His grace doesn't fail. Even when my individual faith waivers, I am still justified by His faith that never waivers.
E
Here is the heart of the Matter, If anyone wants to know what carnal, worldly thinking is, This would be a good summation of what it is.
To be christlike is to empty self completely. Christ never did anything for himself. He was never his focus, Even at the end, When his desire was that God would remove the cup. He sacrificed self for those who loved..
When ever you put the words I or me into an equation of work, that is carnality.
True spirituality and true love says that something is done because of the love of another, to serve another. Until you realize this you will never understand true spirituality and what real sin is.
You just sinned, repent peter. or you may go to hell..
No peter that is you. You refuse to listen, You refuse to admit when you have sinned against someone, You refuse to acknowledge that you may be wrong, thus you refuse to listen to anythign anyone says, That is why so many people who come in here and tgry to stick up for you end up having to turn and confront you because everyone sees it but you.
I am sorry EG. It is not a sin to say exactly what you are doing. Total subjectivity is the state we exist in. Until you accept this reality, nothing else matters. This is not even a religious issue, it is a reality of life.
If you cannot grasp this idea, then discussion ends, it is beyond your pay grade.
This is why Jesus says we have to take responsibility for everything we say. Because it is us who are doing it, not christ, or our family, or our friends, it is us as individuals.
Now in moral language there is a difference between selfish actions, done only for the benefit of an individual and group actions, done for the benefit of another or more than one. The problem comes is everything is a mixture, it just depends on how you look at it.
I do not expect you to agree or do anything but be aggressive, derogatory and insulting. If you cannot even agree with simple realities that is where respect fails, and pure malice and bad intent begins. I am as fair as I can be, but as I said you are blind deaf and dumb.
It was funny when PW pointed out you actually hold almost the same beliefs as me except for a few points, but you hated that so much you slagged him off. I think this proves my point to any readers.
My wife had to teach a teacher about biology. This teacher told my wife what the experiment was going to prove, though she was wrong, she refused to look at what actually happened and learn. EG appears the same way. He knows righteousness is impossible, anything motivated by a person is evil, even in obedience to Christ, so I am a hyprocrite.
I wonder before the Lord, do people like this know love, know how a parent rejoices when a child learns to do something good, and it is what you want. God is not different with us, yet here is hyper-grace world, everything is sin, unless the Holy Spirit is doing it mystically through us. Not surprisingly they are literally in a total mess, because the Holy Spirit appears to be doing very very little, and sin appears to be steadfastly not letting go. But hey that must be Gods will?
If you cannot grasp this idea, then discussion ends, it is beyond your pay grade.
This is why Jesus says we have to take responsibility for everything we say. Because it is us who are doing it, not christ, or our family, or our friends, it is us as individuals.
Now in moral language there is a difference between selfish actions, done only for the benefit of an individual and group actions, done for the benefit of another or more than one. The problem comes is everything is a mixture, it just depends on how you look at it.
I do not expect you to agree or do anything but be aggressive, derogatory and insulting. If you cannot even agree with simple realities that is where respect fails, and pure malice and bad intent begins. I am as fair as I can be, but as I said you are blind deaf and dumb.
It was funny when PW pointed out you actually hold almost the same beliefs as me except for a few points, but you hated that so much you slagged him off. I think this proves my point to any readers.
My wife had to teach a teacher about biology. This teacher told my wife what the experiment was going to prove, though she was wrong, she refused to look at what actually happened and learn. EG appears the same way. He knows righteousness is impossible, anything motivated by a person is evil, even in obedience to Christ, so I am a hyprocrite.
I wonder before the Lord, do people like this know love, know how a parent rejoices when a child learns to do something good, and it is what you want. God is not different with us, yet here is hyper-grace world, everything is sin, unless the Holy Spirit is doing it mystically through us. Not surprisingly they are literally in a total mess, because the Holy Spirit appears to be doing very very little, and sin appears to be steadfastly not letting go. But hey that must be Gods will?
E
Ok Mods. what is going on here. Is this what CC has come to?
first he says I am deaf blind and dumb, Now he continues his attack.
Peter. I would stoop down to your level. But what good would it do. People have tried and tried to talk to you about how you twist what everyone says, You never listen to anyone And you do not make sense yourself. But it is never your problem. it is always someone elses fault.
All I can do is bid you farewell and good luck. You want to keep harassing me, Feel free. You want to keep bearing false witness against my brothers and sisters. I will continue to expose it. Do not feel like you have to respond to me. It does no good anyway, Because you always come back and say I say things I have never said.
T
Sated Peace in the midst of Hungry Chaos
Portobello mushrooms
lined with nefarious gills
fume on hot, aggressive flames,
merging with denial's grills
that sears unbending lines
on their callous toughened shells ...
Oh my!
I sip a sweet and creamy coffee
on the sidelines, eyebrow raised.
The chef with aires adds fuel to fires,
as he coyly asks them "dry or glazed?"
All the meaningless smoke
simply dances through the flourishing garden
that blooms between my ears.
I swallow the last sugary dregs of my peace
and look to spring's benefactor
with a grateful smile.
Truth like a spectrum's soft bubbles
washes my weary hands of it all...
The sink of my bible beckons me in.
Let them avidly grope and grab
for the mushrooms on the grill...
I'm not hungry.
A stream of consciousness poem. This is what emerges when we thoughtfully choose to write thoughtlessly ...
A mix of my hopeful lunch, a bickering bible discussion board I was listening to, the spring breeze through my window, and dishes waiting to be washed.
Thank God for peace in the midst of chaos ... and the wisdom to know when to leave the room.
Portobello mushrooms
lined with nefarious gills
fume on hot, aggressive flames,
merging with denial's grills
that sears unbending lines
on their callous toughened shells ...
Oh my!
I sip a sweet and creamy coffee
on the sidelines, eyebrow raised.
The chef with aires adds fuel to fires,
as he coyly asks them "dry or glazed?"
All the meaningless smoke
simply dances through the flourishing garden
that blooms between my ears.
I swallow the last sugary dregs of my peace
and look to spring's benefactor
with a grateful smile.
Truth like a spectrum's soft bubbles
washes my weary hands of it all...
The sink of my bible beckons me in.
Let them avidly grope and grab
for the mushrooms on the grill...
I'm not hungry.
A stream of consciousness poem. This is what emerges when we thoughtfully choose to write thoughtlessly ...
A mix of my hopeful lunch, a bickering bible discussion board I was listening to, the spring breeze through my window, and dishes waiting to be washed.
Thank God for peace in the midst of chaos ... and the wisdom to know when to leave the room.
Last edited by a moderator:
So this lovely thread about studying the Bible turned into another grace vs law thread???
Why am I not surprised??
I am a bit surprised to hear Peter say that "we exist in a state of total subjectivity."
Now if that isn't post-modern humanism, I don't know what is! And to think he pretends to be a Christian!
Why am I not surprised??
I am a bit surprised to hear Peter say that "we exist in a state of total subjectivity."
Now if that isn't post-modern humanism, I don't know what is! And to think he pretends to be a Christian!
Sorry EG. You have said I have sinned against you. Please show me you understand the concept of subjectivity, and I will withdraw me saying you are blind, deaf and dumb.
You say I do not listen to others, but I listen all the time and respond appropriately. I say I know purity and righteousness through Christ, yet that is somehow evil and hypocritical, though you cannot prove it.
You have said doing things from self is evil, or sinful. I pointed out this is actually what life is, working from self, because that is who we are. You want me to just capitulate to your way of thinking or give up. That is forcing someone to believe an idea and not winning an argument. Do you understand the difference? If you win the argument I will gladly agree, but you have failed to do this, so I cannot. If I make a fair point just contradicting its logic is not an answer, it is be dishonest.
Will you ever stop? It appears not because you believe you are right...without a leg to stand on.
You say I do not listen to others, but I listen all the time and respond appropriately. I say I know purity and righteousness through Christ, yet that is somehow evil and hypocritical, though you cannot prove it.
You have said doing things from self is evil, or sinful. I pointed out this is actually what life is, working from self, because that is who we are. You want me to just capitulate to your way of thinking or give up. That is forcing someone to believe an idea and not winning an argument. Do you understand the difference? If you win the argument I will gladly agree, but you have failed to do this, so I cannot. If I make a fair point just contradicting its logic is not an answer, it is be dishonest.
Will you ever stop? It appears not because you believe you are right...without a leg to stand on.
Failing to walk in salvation does not equal loss of salvation.
Failing to walk in salvation affects the fellowship between God and the believer. The believer who stumbles is still a child of the Father. However, fellowship is broken and, until restored through acknowledgment/confession by the believer, the believer walks in darkness rather than in light (1 John 1:1-2:11).
Again, a child of God is a child of God.
In the parable of the forgiving father, the young son was still the son of his father even though he wasted his substance with riotous living. When he finally came to the end of his foolishness and returned to his father, the father welcomed him with open arms (Luke 15:11-20).
And, by the way, the elder son who remained at home with his father was just as sinful when his brother returned because he was angry when he saw his father rejoicing over his son's repentance. He was prideful and pointed out to his father these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf (Luke 15:29-30).
Both sons were at fault in the parable. The son who left home was representative of the publicans and sinners who came to hear Jesus (vs 1). The son who remained at home was representative of the pharisees and scribes who murmured at Jesus receiving the publicans and sinners and eating with them (vs 2).
And no believer teaches or says sin does not matter.
Failing to walk in salvation affects the fellowship between God and the believer. The believer who stumbles is still a child of the Father. However, fellowship is broken and, until restored through acknowledgment/confession by the believer, the believer walks in darkness rather than in light (1 John 1:1-2:11).
Again, a child of God is a child of God.
In the parable of the forgiving father, the young son was still the son of his father even though he wasted his substance with riotous living. When he finally came to the end of his foolishness and returned to his father, the father welcomed him with open arms (Luke 15:11-20).
And, by the way, the elder son who remained at home with his father was just as sinful when his brother returned because he was angry when he saw his father rejoicing over his son's repentance. He was prideful and pointed out to his father these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf (Luke 15:29-30).
Both sons were at fault in the parable. The son who left home was representative of the publicans and sinners who came to hear Jesus (vs 1). The son who remained at home was representative of the pharisees and scribes who murmured at Jesus receiving the publicans and sinners and eating with them (vs 2).
And no believer teaches or says sin does not matter.
Being from a scientific background, it is more that just post-modern humanism it is scientific reality.
If you ever deal with the mentally ill, or even dementia patients, this subjectivity becomes very real. Most of what we call reality is what we remember and how we perceive the world. It is why religion an belief is so difficult, and two people can believe the same things for very different reasons.
And I would argue I am not arguing for law at all, I am arguing for walking in purity and righteousness based on love working in your heart. When we are with Christ we all believe we will be like this, or at least that is my understanding of all our beliefs. I am extending this to today and asking why are people so far from this goal?
One answer is the teaching often believes this is not possible and is legalism to suggest such a thing.
Another is people are bound by their emotional history it is not possible without major healing and growth.
Others would say it is an illusion, because we are all created differently so just accepting subjective morality is the only way it can be made sense of.
I am still exploring and challenging others to ask themselves, is this all Jesus meant by dying on the cross?
If you ever deal with the mentally ill, or even dementia patients, this subjectivity becomes very real. Most of what we call reality is what we remember and how we perceive the world. It is why religion an belief is so difficult, and two people can believe the same things for very different reasons.
And I would argue I am not arguing for law at all, I am arguing for walking in purity and righteousness based on love working in your heart. When we are with Christ we all believe we will be like this, or at least that is my understanding of all our beliefs. I am extending this to today and asking why are people so far from this goal?
One answer is the teaching often believes this is not possible and is legalism to suggest such a thing.
Another is people are bound by their emotional history it is not possible without major healing and growth.
Others would say it is an illusion, because we are all created differently so just accepting subjective morality is the only way it can be made sense of.
I am still exploring and challenging others to ask themselves, is this all Jesus meant by dying on the cross?
It means that there are no objective or firm values or rules, laws, history or truths. So the way we perceive things, the way we judge things, is all relative to our past, our education, our culture and environment and that is all the matters.
This means that we really cannot depend upon the Bible to be objective. If the Bible says "X" and we don't think it is right, then it is perfectly valid for us to say "y" and it is just as truth, or not true. So if I think the Bible says that Jesus rose from the dead, and is returning one day, but someone else says that is all metaphor, Jesus didn't really live, it was a story, the second person is just as right as I am, if subjectivity is the right way to view the world.
"terms “objectivity” and “subjectivity,” in their modern usage, generally relate to a perceiving subject (normally a person) and a perceived or unperceived object. The object is something that presumably exists independent of the subject’s perception of it. In other words, the object would be there, as it is, even if no subject perceived it. Hence, objectivity is typically associated with ideas such as reality, truth and reliability.The perceiving subject can either perceive accurately or seem to perceive features of the object that are not in the object. For example, a perceiving subject suffering from jaundice could seem to perceive an object as yellow when the object is not actually yellow. Hence, the term “subjective” typically indicates the possibility of error."
Objectivity | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
"These various definitions of subjectivity are sometimes joined together in philosophy. The term is most commonly used as an explanation for that which influences, informs, and biases people's judgments about truth or reality; it is the collection of the perceptions, experiences, expectations, personal or cultural understanding, and beliefs specific to a person. It is often used in contrast to the term objectivity,[SUP][1][/SUP] which is described as a view of truth or reality which is free of any individual's influence."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjectivity
In other words, objectively is the fact that truth exists outside of the person, and our beliefs, inclinations etc have nothing to do with it. Subjectivity is the lie that only what we believe, or want to believe, exists.
"If a tree falls in the forest, and no one hears it, did it happen?
Objective - yes, it did - the tree fell
Subjective - no, or maybe. Since no one saw or heard it, did it happen or not?
Subjectivity reduces the gospel and the Bible to how WE feel about it, rather than the outside truth, that no matter what we say or do, the world exists, Jesus died and rose again. We don't have to believe it for it to have happened.
Subjectivity leads to moral relativity, and nothing to hold onto in this world.
"Hath God said??"
Yes, this subjectivity was part of the lie Satan used in the Garden of Eden! Because Satan was trying to make Eve look at the command as subjective - maybe God said it, or maybe he did not? And if he did not, why not eat of the fruit of the tree, because what difference could it make? And even if he did say it, does it matter?
I think belief about salvation lost or not is a side issue. The core issue is what is a believer.
If a believer is an eternal being in the kingdom of heaven, redeemed to eternity, no matter their behaviour, then that leads to the idea salvation cannot be lost. It also leads to the idea belief in salvation whether lost or not is irrelevant because once in there is no breaking. In this model all you need is the minimum faith standards and that is the harvest carried in.
Now with this model, sin is all forgiven, and behaviour is just the product of the walk, but being carnal just means you enjoy the rush of lusts, but also get salvation at the end. Wehay, be a sinner and get heaven party as well. So so naive these righteous conformists, they should let their hair down and partyyyyyyyyyy.
Now if this makes intellectual sense as a model, does it match with the apostles teaching and Jesus's intentions?
I do not think it does, and so I do not hold this model. I am not being unfair, but when you meet a drunk addict, your arguments need to be a little better than this.
If a believer is an eternal being in the kingdom of heaven, redeemed to eternity, no matter their behaviour, then that leads to the idea salvation cannot be lost. It also leads to the idea belief in salvation whether lost or not is irrelevant because once in there is no breaking. In this model all you need is the minimum faith standards and that is the harvest carried in.
Now with this model, sin is all forgiven, and behaviour is just the product of the walk, but being carnal just means you enjoy the rush of lusts, but also get salvation at the end. Wehay, be a sinner and get heaven party as well. So so naive these righteous conformists, they should let their hair down and partyyyyyyyyyy.
Now if this makes intellectual sense as a model, does it match with the apostles teaching and Jesus's intentions?
I do not think it does, and so I do not hold this model. I am not being unfair, but when you meet a drunk addict, your arguments need to be a little better than this.
I think it is kind of funny, that you would say that this is scientific, when in fact, the search in science is for objective truth, even if that state is never reached. Why, what, how, when, why? These are the questions of science. Science is the search for objective answers.
It is philosophy that pretends the world is not objective, and what we perceive changes from person to person. Subjectivity means that we can all believe what we want, because basically, we are all little gods, in our own little worlds, and nothing outside of us matters.
It is also obvious you have never dealt with the mentally ill. I have been ministering to them for many years now (15+). No one who has been psychotic would go back and say that anything they experienced in that state was real, although it seemed real enough at the time. The only reason it seems real, is that the brain was chemically in a wrong state, which resulted in the brain either pickling up and interpreting clues that weren't there, or sometimes not getting the cues that are there.
Psychosis and mental illness have nothing to do with the philosophical debate of whether post modern humanism is correct as a philosophy. No mentally ill person I know would argue that the paranoia, hallucinations they experienced while psychotic were real, or had any basis in objective fact.
You are such a total fake, Peter. You pontificate about so many things that you know absolutely nothing about!
It is philosophy that pretends the world is not objective, and what we perceive changes from person to person. Subjectivity means that we can all believe what we want, because basically, we are all little gods, in our own little worlds, and nothing outside of us matters.
It is also obvious you have never dealt with the mentally ill. I have been ministering to them for many years now (15+). No one who has been psychotic would go back and say that anything they experienced in that state was real, although it seemed real enough at the time. The only reason it seems real, is that the brain was chemically in a wrong state, which resulted in the brain either pickling up and interpreting clues that weren't there, or sometimes not getting the cues that are there.
Psychosis and mental illness have nothing to do with the philosophical debate of whether post modern humanism is correct as a philosophy. No mentally ill person I know would argue that the paranoia, hallucinations they experienced while psychotic were real, or had any basis in objective fact.
You are such a total fake, Peter. You pontificate about so many things that you know absolutely nothing about!
Now to those who do not understand concepts, knowing we cannot prove anything for certain, does not mean we cannot rely on the bible by faith as the truth.
It is just saying everything is seen through our own personal perspective, so we have to be careful to take the log out of our own eye before we see what others are saying.
It also should make us more careful how we listen and how we accept facts. We need to test them against what we know and carefully work through them to come to a conclusion. So everything should be looked at from as many different perspectives to get a reasonable position. Hopefully it should make us more cautious and less open to group movements, and more real with those we love and care for.
It is just saying everything is seen through our own personal perspective, so we have to be careful to take the log out of our own eye before we see what others are saying.
It also should make us more careful how we listen and how we accept facts. We need to test them against what we know and carefully work through them to come to a conclusion. So everything should be looked at from as many different perspectives to get a reasonable position. Hopefully it should make us more cautious and less open to group movements, and more real with those we love and care for.
R
Actually it is the CENTRAL issue. If Christ's blood is not enough to eternally save us, then what hope does any Christian have? Because the standard is perfection. And all have fallen short!
The discord that is happening on CC is partly because of those who come in here and teach their humanistic DIY salvation. It is on them for causing discord. It is on us believers to contend for the faith, and to expose such heresy!
The discord that is happening on CC is partly because of those who come in here and teach their humanistic DIY salvation. It is on them for causing discord. It is on us believers to contend for the faith, and to expose such heresy!