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Verse 6 is not talking about the branch who is abiding in the Vine. Verse 6 speaks of those who do not abide in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Vine. We have to remember who Jesus is talking to. He is talking to Jews. Historically, Jews were considered as the vine:
Psalm 80:8 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.
Jeremiah 2:21 Yet I had planted thee a noble vine ...
Hosea 10:1 Israel is an empty vine ...
Isaiah 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel ...
In John 15, Jesus is speaking to His disciples. He is telling them that He is the true Vine. The nation of Israel is no longer considered the vine. If anyone of the nation of Israel does not abide in the Lord Jesus Christ, the true Vine, they will be cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Verse 2 is talking about the believer who abides in the Lord Jesus Christ but does not bear fruit. You have yet to answer this question ---
Do you really believe that God will remove the believer who is abiding in Christ if he/she is not bearing fruit?
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Salvation is now afforded to gentiles. And if gentiles do not continue in His goodness they shall be broken off, just as the natural branches were broken off because of their unbelief.
Psalm 80:8 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.
Jeremiah 2:21 Yet I had planted thee a noble vine ...
Hosea 10:1 Israel is an empty vine ...
Isaiah 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel ...
In John 15, Jesus is speaking to His disciples. He is telling them that He is the true Vine. The nation of Israel is no longer considered the vine. If anyone of the nation of Israel does not abide in the Lord Jesus Christ, the true Vine, they will be cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Verse 2 is talking about the believer who abides in the Lord Jesus Christ but does not bear fruit. You have yet to answer this question ---
Do you really believe that God will remove the believer who is abiding in Christ if he/she is not bearing fruit?
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Salvation is now afforded to gentiles. And if gentiles do not continue in His goodness they shall be broken off, just as the natural branches were broken off because of their unbelief.
E
The corinthians who paul said needed milk, because they were not able to take meat yet. You know. the ones steeped in all kinds of sexual sin.
I am? You said those things "classified as works" were required to be saved.
those are works.
is being obedient a work..yes.
Maybe you do not know what a work is? A work is something done to earn something, We work for a wage.
You claim those things must be done to earn salvation thus in your mind, salvation is a wage earned, not a grace gift.
And yes, I do obey Jesus, and I expect to get rewarded for doing those works.. As he said I would.
And please check your attitude at the door. You should not think you are so smart and everyone else is so stupid. Because you just made yourself look prety bad.
I am? You said those things "classified as works" were required to be saved.
those are works.
is being obedient a work..yes.
Maybe you do not know what a work is? A work is something done to earn something, We work for a wage.
You claim those things must be done to earn salvation thus in your mind, salvation is a wage earned, not a grace gift.
And yes, I do obey Jesus, and I expect to get rewarded for doing those works.. As he said I would.
And please check your attitude at the door. You should not think you are so smart and everyone else is so stupid. Because you just made yourself look prety bad.
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E
1. We believe after we are saved, We will work, there is no if about it. Your the one acting stupid. You think God will save a person who has no faiht in him, and never work. Why do you lack faiht in God as being omniscient?
2. As for work required after we are saved to keep salvation. Are you a fool? (pauls words not mine)
Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
But John 15:2 says they are abiding: Every branch in me that beareth not fruit ...
In verse 2, the branch is in the Vine but is not bearing fruit.
You are effectively saying that God removes those believers who are in the Lord Jesus Christ but who are not bearing fruit for a time.
Verse 2 is not referring non-believers. Only believers can abide in the Vine. And verse 2 specifically indicates the branch is in the Vine but is not bearing fruit. There are periods of time where we will not be bearing fruit. That does not mean we are not in the Vine. It just means we are being lifted and supported by the Vinedresser for a season so that we can bring forth fruit in due time.
That is (or it should be) a comfort to the soul of every believer. During those times, we are to remain in the Vine just as instructed by Jesus.
In verse 2, the branch is in the Vine but is not bearing fruit.
You are effectively saying that God removes those believers who are in the Lord Jesus Christ but who are not bearing fruit for a time.
Verse 2 is not referring non-believers. Only believers can abide in the Vine. And verse 2 specifically indicates the branch is in the Vine but is not bearing fruit. There are periods of time where we will not be bearing fruit. That does not mean we are not in the Vine. It just means we are being lifted and supported by the Vinedresser for a season so that we can bring forth fruit in due time.
That is (or it should be) a comfort to the soul of every believer. During those times, we are to remain in the Vine just as instructed by Jesus.
There's a difference between being in Christ and abiding in Christ. In Christ means being in covenant with GOD; that was done at baptism. Abiding in Christ is our walk. Those who do not walk by the spirit, even though they may be in covenant with GOD, are not abiding in Christ. That's why those who bear no fruit are cut off. It's no different than Israel; they were in covenant with GOD, but the faithless, unfruitful branches were broken off so that faithful branches could be grafted in.
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For me there is only one question. Do you believe in walking in purity, love and righteousness?
If you heart is in Christ, then that is your only way, not to get salvation, earn it, it is because that is where you heart is and you know there is no other way to walk.
Now it is a struggle to obtain such a position, it takes time, working through things, but however you arrive there, it is the arriving that matters. It is odd that something their mission is to show the evil they are doing, when there is only one way, following Jesus. It is also only putting people right about what you need in your heart to power your life.
It is not through better theology or mystical experiences, but putting love into action, at the coal face, when it is hard.
What I am reading is about people who fall away, who doubt, who fall into sin etc. To be frank, other than talking to them that is their choice. There standing with God is between the Lord and them, but once they have broken fellowship, why is it a concern of those who desire to follow? It is odd that a theology about how they are still saved, becomes the reason christians are condemned as evil. So much confusion over nothing but guilt about failure and failure is really ok, because guilt is evil. It actually sounds like Freud, it is guilt that is evil not morality is right.
If you heart is in Christ, then that is your only way, not to get salvation, earn it, it is because that is where you heart is and you know there is no other way to walk.
Now it is a struggle to obtain such a position, it takes time, working through things, but however you arrive there, it is the arriving that matters. It is odd that something their mission is to show the evil they are doing, when there is only one way, following Jesus. It is also only putting people right about what you need in your heart to power your life.
It is not through better theology or mystical experiences, but putting love into action, at the coal face, when it is hard.
What I am reading is about people who fall away, who doubt, who fall into sin etc. To be frank, other than talking to them that is their choice. There standing with God is between the Lord and them, but once they have broken fellowship, why is it a concern of those who desire to follow? It is odd that a theology about how they are still saved, becomes the reason christians are condemned as evil. So much confusion over nothing but guilt about failure and failure is really ok, because guilt is evil. It actually sounds like Freud, it is guilt that is evil not morality is right.
There is no difference between "being in Christ and abiding in Christ".
However, I do agree there is a difference between having Christ in you (what you term as "being in covenant with GOD") and abiding in Christ (what you term as "our walk").
John 15:2 does not talk about "faithless" branches. John 15:2 talks about branches in Christ who are not bearing fruit for a season.
John 15:6 talks about those who are "faithless".
Again, you are effectively saying that God removes those believers who are in the Lord Jesus Christ. And that belief flies in the face of Scripture which indicates they cannot be plucked from the Hand of the Father. According to you, no one can pluck them out, but the Father throws them from Him. Oy vey!!!
However, I do agree there is a difference between having Christ in you (what you term as "being in covenant with GOD") and abiding in Christ (what you term as "our walk").
John 15:2 does not talk about "faithless" branches. John 15:2 talks about branches in Christ who are not bearing fruit for a season.
John 15:6 talks about those who are "faithless".
Again, you are effectively saying that God removes those believers who are in the Lord Jesus Christ. And that belief flies in the face of Scripture which indicates they cannot be plucked from the Hand of the Father. According to you, no one can pluck them out, but the Father throws them from Him. Oy vey!!!
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. GOD doesn't remove believers; he remains faithful to them. He removes those those who pretend to be believers but don't produce fruit, which indicates that they really don't believe. Again:
For ground that drinks the rain that comes often upon it, and brings forth vegetation usable to those [people] for whose sake [it is] also cultivated, shares a blessing from God. But [if it] produces thorns and thistles, [it is] worthless and near to a curse, whose end [is] for burning. Hebrews 6:7-8
The writer of Hebrews after describing those that reject Christ in Hebrews 6:4-8, goes on in verse 9 to talk about the believers - beloved - to talk about things that accompany their salvation and to not be thinking it's them in the previous verses ( which is why he says - "though we are speaking in this way" )
Hebrews 6:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But, beloved, ( believer - in Christ ) we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
Hebrews 6:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But, beloved, ( believer - in Christ ) we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
k. we are in agreement.
Those "who pretend to be believers" are not believers at all and have no access to be in the Vine to begin with.
John 15:2 speaks specifically of those who are in Him. John 15:2 Every branch in me ...
John 15:6 speaks of those who "pretend to be believers" but "really don't believe".
Those "who pretend to be believers" are not believers at all and have no access to be in the Vine to begin with.
John 15:2 speaks specifically of those who are in Him. John 15:2 Every branch in me ...
John 15:6 speaks of those who "pretend to be believers" but "really don't believe".
R
Yes!
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12
Phil you need to really rethink your position. You say that we are wrongfully accusing you of advocating works for salvation. You said in post #405:
I initially showed you someone's post where he trusts in his own works of righteousness for salvation, and you shrugged it off. I just showed you with Philippians that obedience is a work. You can't obey Christ without working! You say that one must obey Christ to make it to heaven, so you are really saying works are necessary for salvation!
Please look at the following Scripture and let it sink in:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9
It is the finished work of Christ's blood sacrifice that we even have any hope. For our hope of eternal salvation only rests in His work! This is my position on Christians working for their Saviour(shared by grace believers on CC) :
"This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." Titus 3:8
Stop falsely accusing us grace believers that we advocate not working for Christ!
This is where you're wrong. Anyone who is baptized into Christ has entered the new covenant with all of its attendant blessings. The parable of the sower clearly teaches this. Some fall away through persecution, some become unfruitful due to loving the world, and some produce fruit due to loving GOD, but at some point, they were all believers.
I've been reading through that study you posted. It's really contrived. He makes assumptions that are really not his to make. The simplest explanation of John 15:1-6 is found in his own study, but which he rejects. I frankly think it's far more credible.
The fruitful branches are pruned and cleaned of growth that would sap their strength, and the small unfruitful branches are cut off. John 15:2 is really not about men; it's an analogy. Then in verse 6 he uses that analogy to describe what happens to men who do not remain in the faith.
I've been reading through that study you posted. It's really contrived. He makes assumptions that are really not his to make. The simplest explanation of John 15:1-6 is found in his own study, but which he rejects. I frankly think it's far more credible.
Before the reaping time, when the flower has been completely formed, and the unripe grape has put forth its flower and blossomed, then shall he take away the little clusters with pruning-hooks, and shall take away the small branches, and cut them off; Isaiah 18:5
The fruitful branches are pruned and cleaned of growth that would sap their strength, and the small unfruitful branches are cut off. John 15:2 is really not about men; it's an analogy. Then in verse 6 he uses that analogy to describe what happens to men who do not remain in the faith.
The parable of the sower is not the same as what is written in John 15:2 and to mash the two concepts taught in the parable of the sower with the point Jesus was teaching His disciples in John 15 results in error.
The author of the study does not reject what is written in Isaiah 18:5. The author points out that there are branches left remaining on the vine which will fruit in the future. The branches left on the vine for the future are carefully tended. They are lifted off the ground and nurtured and supported.
The author further points out that there is a difference between those who do not abide and those who do abide but who are not bearing fruit. That is the nuance written into the analogy of John 15 which you reject.
The author of the study does not reject what is written in Isaiah 18:5. The author points out that there are branches left remaining on the vine which will fruit in the future. The branches left on the vine for the future are carefully tended. They are lifted off the ground and nurtured and supported.
The author further points out that there is a difference between those who do not abide and those who do abide but who are not bearing fruit. That is the nuance written into the analogy of John 15 which you reject.
According to some people.....it looks like Jesus is either a liar or is deceiving us as some want believers to believe.
I personally believe neither but everyone is free to believe what they want. Jesus is well able to finish in us what He started as Phil 1:6 says.
As far as "abiding in Christ" goes...it's a promise of our being in Him forever because of His finished work for us - not a "conditional" as works-based mindsets want us to believe.
Paul uses the phrase "in Christ, in Him, etc" - 146x times in his writing of all his books. We believers are in Christ and He does not throw us away into hell or the lake of fire as the works-based mindsets try to deceive us with.
Fruit is love, joy, peace, patience, etc. All 9 fruit of the Spirit Paul talked about in Gal.5
John 8:35 (NASB)
[SUP]35 [/SUP] "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. ( remain = same Greek word " abide " used in John 15 )
1 John 3:2 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
John 14:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; ( "with you" is the same Greek word as "abide" used in John 15 )
[SUP]17 [/SUP] that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. ( same word used in John 15 about "abiding in Christ" )
Jesus is the Truth and He abides in us forever!
1 John 4:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. ( same word used here "abides" as in John 15 - abides )
2 John 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: ( forever is a very long time - same word "abides" as in John 15 - abides )
We could go on and on with tons of scripture like "No one can pluck us out of His hands nor the Father's Hands and no one includes everyone , even us, ( which we would never want to do anyways..)
I personally believe neither but everyone is free to believe what they want. Jesus is well able to finish in us what He started as Phil 1:6 says.
As far as "abiding in Christ" goes...it's a promise of our being in Him forever because of His finished work for us - not a "conditional" as works-based mindsets want us to believe.
Paul uses the phrase "in Christ, in Him, etc" - 146x times in his writing of all his books. We believers are in Christ and He does not throw us away into hell or the lake of fire as the works-based mindsets try to deceive us with.
Fruit is love, joy, peace, patience, etc. All 9 fruit of the Spirit Paul talked about in Gal.5
John 8:35 (NASB)
[SUP]35 [/SUP] "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. ( remain = same Greek word " abide " used in John 15 )
1 John 3:2 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
John 14:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; ( "with you" is the same Greek word as "abide" used in John 15 )
[SUP]17 [/SUP] that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. ( same word used in John 15 about "abiding in Christ" )
Jesus is the Truth and He abides in us forever!
1 John 4:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. ( same word used here "abides" as in John 15 - abides )
2 John 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: ( forever is a very long time - same word "abides" as in John 15 - abides )
We could go on and on with tons of scripture like "No one can pluck us out of His hands nor the Father's Hands and no one includes everyone , even us, ( which we would never want to do anyways..)
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Hi Grace 777X 70
Good point .Things that accompanies salvation like actual redemption of our soul. And not a kick start placing us in the garden before the first transgression.
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb 6:1
I find the opening statement interesting. Why would we leave something unless it was in the way as an obstruction(stumbling block )? It give rise to; for it is impossible for those (5 times) found in the verses 4-through 7 up until the verse you offered that speaks of better things for those who do not crucify Christ over and over subjecting him to public shame, as if once was not enough to appease the eternal wrath of God which he did pour out on His son..
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6:6
From looking at the opening statement, the beginning of the subject matter which sets the manner of work some were offering called “dead works” toward God, or God-ward and therefore not his faith towards us. And hoping that kind of what they called wonderful works could rather be the way we can know Christ. Us towards Him, the dead works, and not Him towards us the living works of His faith that both wills and does his good pleasure.
Christ called those kind of workers, workers of iniquity.he did not say they did not perform them but they become dead when a person wants to take some credit for God moving them. It simply does not work for us that receive the better things that do accompany salvation. Knowing God, the better thing..
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:22
Good point .Things that accompanies salvation like actual redemption of our soul. And not a kick start placing us in the garden before the first transgression.
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb 6:1
I find the opening statement interesting. Why would we leave something unless it was in the way as an obstruction(stumbling block )? It give rise to; for it is impossible for those (5 times) found in the verses 4-through 7 up until the verse you offered that speaks of better things for those who do not crucify Christ over and over subjecting him to public shame, as if once was not enough to appease the eternal wrath of God which he did pour out on His son..
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6:6
From looking at the opening statement, the beginning of the subject matter which sets the manner of work some were offering called “dead works” toward God, or God-ward and therefore not his faith towards us. And hoping that kind of what they called wonderful works could rather be the way we can know Christ. Us towards Him, the dead works, and not Him towards us the living works of His faith that both wills and does his good pleasure.
Christ called those kind of workers, workers of iniquity.he did not say they did not perform them but they become dead when a person wants to take some credit for God moving them. It simply does not work for us that receive the better things that do accompany salvation. Knowing God, the better thing..
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:22