Is Socialism biblical?

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Jesus4ever

Senior Member
May 18, 2015
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Take the recent "Panama papers" scandal, for example. Apart of so many terrible things we find, what´s the ultimate problem? The love of money and consequent greed.

And for those who say this is a Capitalism problem, please see several leftists/Socialists found there, also! Again, the problem is Human heart, not politic/economic systems.
 
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jamie26301

Senior Member
May 14, 2011
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I've been looking at definitions of "socialism" and I don't think Canada qualifies, any more than the USA.

  • I was stunned to read Jamie2630's post on page 8, and to remember how totally unfair the US medical insurance system is.

    In Canada, you can go to any doctor or hospital in Canada. There is no such thing as having to only go the doctor or hospital that is in cahoots with the insurance company.

    So I believe our universal health care is much freer and helpful than the current American system. Sadly, it seems that is the Americans themselves who think, in some twisted way, that private insurance and hospitals are more "free" and "capitalistic" than our Canadian system, where everyone is covered, and we have free choice of who is going to treat us.
That is awesome Angela! It sounds like the heath care you have is superior in several ways.

The concern I have, though, with like Obamacare and subsidized heath care is that it doesn't address the problem, which is price. The prices won't go away, they will just be passed on in some manner. Pass that on to the tax payer, with the growth of prices, it will eventually catch up to us... it already has. Private heath care prems. have gone up with the implementation of Obamacare, and Obamacare is NOT affordable insurance, either.

Depending on your income, martial status etc, it can be very high. My husband and I screened ourselves online (the site was a MESS) and our insurance was projected to be at $300 a month - uh, no, we can't afford that. Most people the first year just paid the gov penalty on their taxes - that was FAR cheaper. Businesses get around the mandate of offering health insurance by cutting hours. Obamacare is a mess, and one reason it's not working is because we haven't addressed the key issue - illegal pricing and extortion. I could find some articles to better explain this if you wish.
 
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coby2

Guest
That is awesome Angela! It sounds like the heath care you have is superior in several ways.

The concern I have, though, with like Obamacare and subsidized heath care is that it doesn't address the problem, which is price. The prices won't go away, they will just be passed on in some manner. Pass that on to the tax payer, with the growth of prices, it will eventually catch up to us... it already has. Private heath care prems. have gone up with the implementation of Obamacare, and Obamacare is NOT affordable insurance, either.

Depending on your income, martial status etc, it can be very high. My husband and I screened ourselves online (the site was a MESS) and our insurance was projected to be at $300 a month - uh, no, we can't afford that. Most people the first year just paid the gov penalty on their taxes - that was FAR cheaper. Businesses get around the mandate of offering health insurance by cutting hours. Obamacare is a mess, and one reason it's not working is because we haven't addressed the key issue - illegal pricing and extortion. I could find some articles to better explain this if you wish.
300 a month for one person? Here it's about 100 a month (you can choose how much you pay, if you need more help you can pay more, if you need the basics you pay less) and for kids til 18 it's free.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,049
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I hate socialism because I associate it with able-bodied parasites who refuse to work.
I'm truly sorry to say but in order to espouse socialism one has to be evil or ignorant. I believe the vast majority are ignorant or in the case of Christians, get confused and try and make Scripture apply to secular government. The founding fathers were brilliant in the sense that they fully understood human nature and the best way to combat it.

The heart is desperately wicked and corrupt. Once that fact sinks in, the task is how to negate as best as possible man's corruption, so a society can prosper. A belief in, and accountability to a God, and COMPETITION are the only forces in human history proven to counter man's corruption.

For most of American history BOTH concepts were at least understood, although not perfectly implemented, and we prospered.

The more we recede from those concepts, the worse EVERYTHING gets.

The evil ones at the top pushing socialism desire power and control. They understand that a person making $70,000 under capitalism, while others might make $500,000, is better off than if EVERYONE were "equal" and making $35,000. They count on the old adage "misery loves company" and won't mind having less as long as the guy down the street doesn't have more than him.

The poorer the citizenry, the more they must rely on government. So it is in the Elite's interest that people are poorer so that their power and control will grow.

This is not merely theory. It is repeated everywhere socialism is implemented. And they are patient, willing to mix adash of capitalism here and there to achieve their ultimate goal.

As Christians, we should understand that we can help the poor whenever we want. What a cowardly way out to pay taxes to the government to assuage our guilt in not doing more, and then accuse others of being cold-hearted for not supporting welfare and socialism for the MILLIONS capable of working.

I am solidly middle-class and feel beyond blessed by the Lord in so many ways, yet I can't EVER remember feeling jealous, or anything other than happy for anybody that the Lord chooses to bless more than me, be it monetarily or any other way.

I think the sickness of this socialism bug is now too entrenched for us to turn back now. Nothing short of economic collapse because of it can halt it now.

What a shame we have squandered our heritage that have brought people from every corner of the world to desire a better life.
 
P

Persuaded

Guest
I often hear envy the other way around. "They have more and yet they've worked less, they should work more like me if they want nice things."

From either side of this debate, you can appeal to fairness, depending on perspective (see my homeless people example). Envy can be on either side.
Fairness is paying people according to how much they produce.
If I work harder, do not waste time, am more efficient, and produce more in an hour, I should be paid more.
How is that envy to reward those who are more productive?

Years ago, when I lived in the Dallas area, I took a temp job in a warehouse because I could not find a construction job.
At the end of the first day, I had loaded twice as much product on trucks as those working next to me.
I asked the boss for a raise. He said under union contract, he could not give me more than others.
The next day, after I worked about 2 hours, I set down to rest.
The boss came by and asked why I was not working,
I told him I was waiting for the others to catch up with me.
He fired me.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
U.S. government has already been doing some of that for many years now, that's why even Socialists like Bernie Sanders don't have to advocate those things, they're already in place.

The U.S. has been a Socialist welfare state ever since the progressive income tax started in 1933, and the unconstitutional Federal Reserve Act was passed giving the U.S. economy over to the world bankers who control our monetary policy WITHOUT ANY CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT! Even ex-Fed chairman of the board Alan Greenspan said in 1966 doing that kind of thing was a program to redistribute wealth.
(Alan Greenspan, Gold and Economic Freedom (1966))
Wasn't the tax system at one time sucking 90% or so from highest earners? But people in our time would not want to live in a truly capitalistic society, which was more the case, prior to the Great Depression. A lot of our forefathers suffered poverty, hunger and deprivations, loading up everything they had in covered wagons, to try to find a better life in the West, more often than not wind up in some prairie hole in the ground, none the better off, and nobody who cared. You were sort of either a robber baron of the railroad, or laying track, maybe a clerk, in you were lucky. Before OSHA, there was a China man's chance, child labor.

You know, DP, given your theology, I could see your concern with socialism, seeing as how you think that one day you will need the mark of the beast at Taco Bell, when the Lord gets to whipping on His bride. At least that's where you sit, with your writ. I prefer the marriage supper. Bet there will be ice cream burritos and the like. So, any prognosis on the timing of the "blessed despair" you look forward to?
 
C

coby2

Guest
I'm truly sorry to say but in order to espouse socialism one has to be evil or ignorant. I believe the vast majority are ignorant or in the case of Christians, get confused and try and make Scripture apply to secular government. The founding fathers were brilliant in the sense that they fully understood human nature and the best way to combat it.

The heart is desperately wicked and corrupt. Once that fact sinks in, the task is how to negate as best as possible man's corruption, so a society can prosper. A belief in, and accountability to a God, and COMPETITION are the only forces in human history proven to counter man's corruption.

For most of American history BOTH concepts were at least understood, although not perfectly implemented, and we prospered.

The more we recede from those concepts, the worse EVERYTHING gets.

The evil ones at the top pushing socialism desire power and control. They understand that a person making $70,000 under capitalism, while others might make $500,000, is better off than if EVERYONE were "equal" and making $35,000. They count on the old adage "misery loves company" and won't mind having less as long as the guy down the street doesn't have more than him.

The poorer the citizenry, the more they must rely on government. So it is in the Elite's interest that people are poorer so that their power and control will grow.

This is not merely theory. It is repeated everywhere socialism is implemented. And they are patient, willing to mix adash of capitalism here and there to achieve their ultimate goal.

As Christians, we should understand that we can help the poor whenever we want. What a cowardly way out to pay taxes to the government to assuage our guilt in not doing more, and then accuse others of being cold-hearted for not supporting welfare and socialism for the MILLIONS capable of working.

I am solidly middle-class and feel beyond blessed by the Lord in so many ways, yet I can't EVER remember feeling jealous, or anything other than happy for anybody that the Lord chooses to bless more than me, be it monetarily or any other way.

I think the sickness of this socialism bug is now too entrenched for us to turn back now. Nothing short of economic collapse because of it can halt it now.

What a shame we have squandered our heritage that have brought people from every corner of the world to desire a better life.
Well yes everyone could always come to America because they just had to earn their own money. In Holland they weren't welcome. They cost way too much. And now all of a sudden they want socialism for everyone. It works fine in a tiny rich country, we all care for each other like one big family. We hate all this extreme rich nonsense with people who want to show off anyway. Rich people just leave to other countries. But now with Europe and we had to pay billions to Greece it wasn't so great anymore. I don't know if it would work in the States, it's much bigger.
 
E

ember

Guest
Christians, get confused and try and make Scripture apply to secular government
I agree with your post in general, but the above, is so quite often
 
Dec 1, 2014
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251
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Fairness is paying people according to how much they produce.
If I work harder, do not waste time, am more efficient, and produce more in an hour, I should be paid more.
How is that envy to reward those who are more productive?

Years ago, when I lived in the Dallas area, I took a temp job in a warehouse because I could not find a construction job.
At the end of the first day, I had loaded twice as much product on trucks as those working next to me.
I asked the boss for a raise. He said under union contract, he could not give me more than others.
The next day, after I worked about 2 hours, I set down to rest.
The boss came by and asked why I was not working,
I told him I was waiting for the others to catch up with me.
He fired me.
Astounding! Simply astounding!
 

jamie26301

Senior Member
May 14, 2011
1,154
10
38
39
Fairness is paying people according to how much they produce.
If I work harder, do not waste time, am more efficient, and produce more in an hour, I should be paid more.
How is that envy to reward those who are more productive?

Years ago, when I lived in the Dallas area, I took a temp job in a warehouse because I could not find a construction job.
At the end of the first day, I had loaded twice as much product on trucks as those working next to me.
I asked the boss for a raise. He said under union contract, he could not give me more than others.
The next day, after I worked about 2 hours, I set down to rest.
The boss came by and asked why I was not working,
I told him I was waiting for the others to catch up with me.
He fired me.
Hard work, esp. in a consumer driven society we have now, is not what pays... good acting, being presentable, making people feel good about your product is what pays - even if you have to lie and manipulate your customer. Look at all the people who invest in Amazon, and yet they're not even turning a profit! But the APPEARANCE... that's what people invest in, not actual work and product.

In some lines of work, this means being belittled, customers complaining, and you apologizing for things that are far removed from your responsibility (what fairness! when working means taking crap from customers for others'/their own mistakes and policies! so you can appease what OTHER people who aren't in your situation thinks is fair!). In sales, your customers may be other business owners, and again, talking up your product, being likeable is what sells it - not necessarily the WORK you put into that product.

My husband does dispatch work, he knows the machines and fixes/tunes them, and he knows how the plant works inside and out. My husband has worked hard in the same plant for 20 years.

But THAT is not what sells his product and THAT'S not what keeps the customers he does have. What sells his product is meeting the unreasonable demands of customers that costs him money in the form of extra trips, and competing with monopolistic companies that undercuts his prices and offers free products for x months to our customers, or customers he would want to have.

You see, HARD WORK isn't what this economy is about anymore. It is about who has the most money and the best smile. We don't produce - we consume. So it's natural then to see consuming welfare recipients, because the whole danged thing works that way.

I was addressing our attitudes, and I wasn't saying that it's fair... I mean, I worked at McDonald's - I scrubbed the floors, I scrubbed dishes, I cleaned trash cans, I keep the drink bar spotless, I swept, mobbed, I worked VERY HARD... but someone who has a nicer smile, just so bubbly, advances ahead of me even when they don't put in the elbow grease and has the same knowledge I do... because we are not driven by hard work, but by kissing butt. I went to work WHEN I WAS ON DISABILITY, all bills paid, because I wanted to be productive and do something with my time. The nurses, my doctor, everyone was impressed with my drive to be self-sufficient, because taking the bus and going to work was something no one else in that health care program would do... cos they didn't want to or couldn't. Believe me, I know about unfairness in work. But that's also why I sympathize with people not wanting to do it.

But the point of the parable is compassion seldom looks fair, anyway, and it's one reason people won't show it to others... they just don't deserve it, IT'S NOT FAIR.
 
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Jesus4ever

Senior Member
May 18, 2015
783
19
18
Fairness is paying people according to how much they produce.
If I work harder, do not waste time, am more efficient, and produce more in an hour, I should be paid more.
How is that envy to reward those who are more productive?
This is fairness!

I´m a teacher! I work for 15 years and so far I´ve been raised the equivalent to $120 since the first payment I had. And only because I have more than 10 years of work. Here we have indexes of payments, so it may be 30 000 teachers in this country receiving exactly the same. Are these 30 000 all equal in terms of educative quality or dedication to our work? Don´t you think all school principals know what are the best teachers and the worst? Of course they do! But that doesn´t matter, because we all earn the same.

Plus, until recent times, teachers were promoted in they carer only by antiquity, that is, the more work time they had, the more they earned. No sort of work/quality evaluation, all you needed was to be part of the State boards and voilá. So, you spend 4 years earning x, then you were "promoted" to the next level, then you spend other 4 earning more, etc...!

Needless to say that not all board teachers are better than those who are substitute teachers (my case). They earn more, according to age and the amount of time they work, they have work our reduction, but still, they earn more.

How´s this to encourage people to work harder and better? How´s this for fairness?
 
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Persuaded

Guest
Astounding! Simply astounding!
I never worked on a "union" job again.
Unions reward the lazy and penalize the productive and drive prices up.
 

jamie26301

Senior Member
May 14, 2011
1,154
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300 a month for one person? Here it's about 100 a month (you can choose how much you pay, if you need more help you can pay more, if you need the basics you pay less) and for kids til 18 it's free.
This quote was for both of us as a unit... but it was still way too much.
 
P

Persuaded

Guest
This is fairness!

I´m a teacher! I work for 15 years and so far I´ve been raised the equivalent to $120 since the first payment I had. And only because I have more than 10 years of work. Here we have indexes of payments, so it may be 30 000 teachers in this country receiving exactly the same. Are these 30 000 all equal in terms of educative quality or dedication to our work? Don´t you think all school principals know what are the best teachers and the worst? Of course they do! But that doesn´t matter, because we all earn the same.

Plus, until recent times, teacher evolved in they carer only by antiquity, that is, the more work time they had, the more they earned. No sort of work/quality evaluation, all you needed was to be part of the State boards and voilá. So, you spend 4 years earning x, then you were "promoted" to the next level, then you spend other 4 earning more, etc...!

Needless to say that not all board teachers are better than those who are substitute teachers (my case). They earn more, according to age and the amount of time they work, they have work our reduction, but still, they earn more.

How´s this to encourage people to work harder and better? How´s this for fairness?
My wife taught school for 23 years. There were days she came home crying because of what she saw and put up with. So I know "fairness" when it comes to school systems.
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,551
2,173
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What is Biblical is that Jesus lowered Himself from all His Heavenly Glory and became a human to take our sins and pay our debt. We didn't deserve it but it was required by God that the Richest and the Best take care of the scum of the earth. Looks like in this case we are the needy ones and it begs the question Why did God do it? He didn't have to... But He loved us so much and because He loved us first we love Him....
 

jamie26301

Senior Member
May 14, 2011
1,154
10
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This is fairness!

I´m a teacher! I work for 15 years and so far I´ve been raised the equivalent to $120 since the first payment I had. And only because I have more than 10 years of work. Here we have indexes of payments, so it may be 30 000 teachers in this country receiving exactly the same. Are these 30 000 all equal in terms of educative quality or dedication to our work? Don´t you think all school principals know what are the best teachers and the worst? Of course they do! But that doesn´t matter, because we all earn the same.
That's a VERY controversial subject here.

One time I voted on issues. The issue was cutting funding for schools that didn't produce certain test scores. I marked that no, I don't believe set scores should be a mandate for funding. Not because of teacher jobs, and not because I think all teachers are alike... but because the child in the teacher's classroom is a product of six or so years of conditioning out of their control, that greatly affects how that child learns and how they receive information. I think some teachers could certainly be better, but I don't think they should be penalize or even rewarded on how well a child learns, because there are so many other external and internal factors the teacher doesn't control. So that's my take on that, and actually, I'm on the fence about rewards or higher wages for some teachers than others. Yes, it provides them an incentive, but they didn't mold that child - their parents and their previous environment did, so I don't think REWARDS or PENALTIES is objectively fair.


How´s this to encourage people to work harder and better? How´s this for fairness?
I don't think it's fair, because psychology. :p
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
What is Biblical is that Jesus lowered Himself from all His Heavenly Glory and became a human to take our sins and pay our debt. We didn't deserve it but it was required by God that the Richest and the Best take care of the scum of the earth. Looks like in this case we are the needy ones and it begs the question Why did God do it? He didn't have to... But He loved us so much and because He loved us first we love Him....
Politics aside, you make quite a point (must be one of those cookie highs). It seems we are most fortunate to have a God who didn't mind redistributing wealth!

2 Corinthians 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

Just where we would be, without such cosmic socialism?
 

Jesus4ever

Senior Member
May 18, 2015
783
19
18
My wife taught school for 23 years. There were days she came home crying because of what she saw and put up with. So I know "fairness" when it comes to school systems.
I´m sorry to know that, brother.

Yeah, it can be real hard. Did she work in public schools?
 
Feb 28, 2016
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we are both well educated in several areas, hubby the most....during our lifetime, many times things
have taken drastic turns, some good, some bad, some real bad, some real good -
we honestly don't believe we have ever compared ourselves against others jobs or how or why they got them,
and compared our self-worth accordingly...

God, by and by, has taught us that it isn't about the JOB or how your got it, but about the HEART
and desire to do what you have to do in order to do the right thing in His eyes..

believe me, we haven't always thought this way, but after 'conversion', everything changed,
and it was inevitable...

what our Father does to our hearts and souls/Spirits after conversion is purely Spiritual, nothing our
'old-carnal-mind' can comprehend...or, ever want to revert to.....
 
P

Persuaded

Guest
I´m sorry to know that, brother.

Yeah, it can be real hard. Did she work in public schools?
Yes, She taught History.
She stoping teaching when our only child was born two months after her 45th bityhday.
What a suprise!:rolleyes: