Is Socialism biblical?

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Jesus4ever

Senior Member
May 18, 2015
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that parable of the workers at the vineyard is not only about salvation. it is about being content with what you agreed to work for: this is what the vineyard owner rebuked the greedy workers over - he said to them, you agreed to work for a wage, and if i am generous with others, what is it to you?

Please notice the previous two verses (end of Chapter 19):


29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold[c] and will inherit eternal life.
30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

Eternal life and first will be last, and the last first.This is the context to the beginning of Jesus parable in chapter 20. Plus, how does the parable starts?

For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.

Eternal life;first will be last, and the last first; Kingdom of Heaven; laborers; vineyard (Jesus).

How does the parable ends (verse 16)? So the last will be first, and the first last.


I respect your opinion about saying this parable is not about salvation, but I really disagree with you.




as my wife always reminds me -- i agreed to work for a certain low wage. and as Christ reminds me, i do not work as though for men, but for Him - so i'm not going to dishonor Christ by "sitting down waiting for others to catch up with me" like you did. and i should not complain; that is selfish and unrighteous, and does not honor God.
i will work to the fullest of my ability, and that will bless this company with revenue, and when i am asked, i will tell people it is because i work as though for God, not for money. and God will be praised, not me :)

100% agreed, brother! That´s how I feel about work!

However, it doesn´t mean that Socialism is right and that its rewarding/earning regarding work is fair. I can work giving my best and not complain, but I have all the right to feel this is an unfair model and try to find a job that respects my qualities as a worker and reward me for that.


 
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jaybird88

Guest

ha, you would think so.

but guess what? it's time for post to leave the house for work.

i have several jobs. at this one, today, i will produce as much as 600% more revenue per hour than other people working along side me at the same wage. the closest anyone in this outfit comes to my production - working with exactly the same equipment, at the same function - is about 35 to 40% of my output. i am a math guy; i crunch these numbers by habit.

it is not a union job, and i only make about 11% more than the lowest paid worker. some of them are paid more than me though i produce 400% more revenue per hour for the company than those people do.

because it is not a union job, i do not receive wages anywhere near commensurate with my performance. it is a capitalist society with no motivation other than profit, and somewhere up the line, the division manager's job is to coldly pay me as little as possible, so that he can make bonuses for keeping costs down.

just so you know -- being paid what you are worth is a complete pipe dream, and it is not the necessary end of "not being in a socialist system" or being non-unionized. a union would fight for just that sort of fair wage. that is exactly the reason that unions were formed. just because some people are corrupt, does not mean the ideal is wrong -- perhaps it is not seniority that should be rewarded, but performance? "laziness" is not rewarded. people take advantage of the system because of the evil in their hearts, that's all.

if you work at a place that rewards performance -- i do, too, at a different job -- you are blessed, and it is not because of some economic or government system that this happens; it is because you are employed by someone with goodness in his heart.

if that's the case, be thankful :)

i know i am!

but concerning this job where i am not fairly treated:
that parable of the workers at the vineyard is not only about salvation. it is about being content with what you agreed to work for: this is what the vineyard owner rebuked the greedy workers over - he said to them, you agreed to work for a wage, and if i am generous with others, what is it to you?

as my wife always reminds me -- i agreed to work for a certain low wage. and as Christ reminds me, i do not work as though for men, but for Him - so i'm not going to dishonor Christ by "sitting down waiting for others to catch up with me" like you did. and i should not complain; that is selfish and unrighteous, and does not honor God.
i will work to the fullest of my ability, and that will bless this company with revenue, and when i am asked, i will tell people it is because i work as though for God, not for money. and God will be praised, not me :)
back in the 90s i was a low volt contractor. made really good money. i was paid by what i did, "paid what i was worth".
it lasted about 4 years until a bigger company came in, bought the company and drove us little guys out.
 
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ember

Guest
but concerning this job where i am not fairly treated:
that parable of the workers at the vineyard is not only about salvation. it is about being content with what you agreed to work for: this is what the vineyard owner rebuked the greedy workers over - he said to them, you agreed to work for a wage, and if i am generous with others, what is it to you?


as my wife always reminds me -- i agreed to work for a certain low wage. and as Christ reminds me, i do not work as though for men, but for Him - so i'm not going to dishonor Christ by "sitting down waiting for others to catch up with me" like you did. and i should not complain; that is selfish and unrighteous, and does not honor God.
i will work to the fullest of my ability, and that will bless this company with revenue, and when i am asked, i will tell people it is because i work as though for God, not for money. and God will be praised, not me :)
good one...yes

just so...that's how I was brought up and saw a message on tv this am...about the very same thing!

timely

I just see this as how our attitudes should be...nothing political
 
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jamie26301

Senior Member
May 14, 2011
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I respect your opinion about saying this parable is not about salvation, but I really disagree with you.


If I may, that is not what he said - he said it is not ONLY about salvation.

The genius of parables, proverbs, and other figurative forms of teaching is that they teach more than one thing at a time - it is the listener who interprets that for themselves.

With the parable of the lost son, for example: I've heard one woman talks about at some points in her life, certain situations meant the parables was targeting her as the proud son, other times she identified more with the lost son. Other circumstances made her sympathize with the "unfair" compassion of the Father.

The lost son got "more" than the son who had been faithful and did his duty - it is another parable that is not only about salvation (meaning both/and) but also about being content with the gifts you've been given.

However, it doesn´t mean that Socialism is right and that its rewarding/earning regarding work is fair. I can work giving my best and not complain, but I have all the right to feel this is an unfair model and try to find a job that respects my qualities as a worker and reward me for that.
Certainly! Many of us are only pointing to the parts of the current system that makes it unfair for the poor.

Here in the States, people getting assistance is not the problem, imo. The gov regulations and requirements for that assistance is what's unfair. Because here, IF you try to go to work, and you put in so many hours/wages (which your wages are figured by gross), you get a good chunk of assistance taken away.

Some people may cry "well, that's fair, you don't need it, you're working." Um, no, it's not fair. The reason it's not fair is that you are only allowed, in assets, to have 2000 at one time (car and house doesn't count). In assets, that also includes anything valuable you may have, like expensive jewelry, or antiques. That is figured into your benefits - you have to report all that. And as far as the gov is concerned, it doesn't matter if that expensive ring has been in your family a few generations - it counts against you, because you should just be able to sell it and have some cash... how is that fair?

(I know all this, because I have been there, sat down, and counted the costs, looked at the laws, and tried to formulate a plan).

Now, cost of living is high here. So, I can only save 2000 dollars, before my network AND higher wages cuts into my benefits. Now here's the rub - as I start working, (and while my GROSS income is what is figured, remember I will start paying taxes), I lose more and more benefits. If you do the math, you lose MORE benefits than you gained working. Iow, there is no financial incentive to let go of welfare, because they penalize you saving a nest egg.

So, remember that I only started out with 2000 when I went to work? Well, I gotta use that, with my new income, to pay rent MONTHLY (here ranges from like 300 for efficiency apartments to 600 - for good prices - oh and unless it's gov subsidized, it tends to go up every year or every few years. My old apartment would go up like 25 or 50 dollars every year.), buy food cos my little bit of gross took it all away, maintenance for my car (if I had one - and keeping a car requires insurance - it's law here - upkeep of the car, and gas - that's a large expense), utilities, clothes, household supplies/cleaners, internet (a source of information for finding jobs and such), good ole what-if medical insurance, and so forth.

Now, I'm being humble, getting off my "lazy" butt and working a job "beneath me" and my hours vary, I'm making 7.25 an hour BEFORE taxes, and oh, did I tell you most service work jobs here WILL NOT give you full time?

Beg for more hours, and you're probably NOT going to get them, because the managers don't make the decisions - corporate does. So, the people who actually knows what's going on in the store, who works hard and who doesn't, can't make that decision to reward hard work and penalize laziness. I've actually had a big dog, a district manager, compliment me and say "I've heard good things about you." Compliments are nice, but they don't pay the rent.

One reason people don't like "beneath you" jobs is there is NO incentive to work hard. I think many people don't work hard, because you DON'T GET REWARDED FOR IT. So why break my back doing a good job, people think, when Billy Bob over here doing nothing gets paid the same? Oh and this is corporate American - this happens union or no union (Another factor to this is worker's rights states - WV, where I was, was one of them).

I did it for two years, and got burnt out. Why? Because I get on my knees, I scrub, I was fast, I paid attention to detail, I did very good - but someone over here, who just pushes a broom a little bit, chats with customers, hides in the restroom, makes it TWO positions higher than me, because hard work isn't what's rewarded in those places - it's personality, that you-either-have-it-or-you-don't kinda thing.

And these jobs, service work, is not intended anyway to be a fixed source of income, nor can they be - which is why when people complain about others' "mooching" and not making a living off these incomes like "honest" people, really grinds my gears... because YOU CAN'T.

We are not a producing nation - we once was. A producing nation values hard work, because that is how you get things done. You want a very good product because people saved for it. However, we are now a consuming nation. You borrow to have things, cos you just can't wait and save like your grandparents did, and so, what is valued now is putting on a face, because that is how you get someone to use their credit and buy something from you.

Many people criticizing socialist aspects are older, or grew up with older parents - they saw America at a certain time when certain rules applied. They don't apply anymore. Hard work is not the key, anymore. What you produce - a clean lobby, and fast service - is not the key anymore and I know FROM EXPERIENCE. So, it's easy to get discouraged AND EVEN SO, higher positions from the bottom doesn't pay all that much more anyway, including swing managers.

So I have a hard time getting what I need from my humble, hard working job. "Get another job!" Factor in that for me, I had to ride the bus - no car. So I have to work around that schedule. Also factor in that many companies forbid you to work for their competitors at the same time. McDonald's isn't going to let you work for Burger King at the same time, which would have been a short walk for me between shifts working at both.

"Learn a trade!" How am I supposed to do that with no money for college or vocational school? How do I do that with no direction from someone? Train on the job? Many jobs don't want to train ya - cos that's what school is for! Oh wait, but, I don't have money for school, and frankly, going into debt for 10s of 1000s of dollars I will probably never pay back is not worth it to me when I can take it easy on welfare.

People may say "save up money anyway!" I've had MULTIPLE people tell me, "just hide money in your apartment." Heh, that is illegal, and if you get caught, POSSIBLE PRISON TIME because to tell the gov. you have less than you do, or to not update them on change of income is a little vice called FRAUD and a very serious crime here... people do it all the time, though, and one (though not the only) reason the laws get tighter and tighter.

For mean personally, I found a solution, though I didn't see it to fruition because I feel in love, got married, and bye bye benefits. I used the PASS program - work incentive Social Security. That is how I paid for three semesters of schooling. However the classes I could sign up for where limited cos I took the bus. And the PASS is only available to people eligible for SSI - not the same as welfare. Though people take issue with gov funded education for people on welfare and I don't understand it because that is how you learn certain trades in this country. So, for people who rail against socialism... sometimes I think they more or less rail against the poor than anyone else.

Bottom line - before I meant my husband, being on assistance, I LIVED BETTER. Yes, I did, not in emotional and happiness sense, but finally I was more secure even when I worked - just had to watch my hours. For about a year and a half, both I and my husband worked for the family business, we were paid what the business could afford, and I did better financially under disability insurance, with a check and insurance card. I'm happier now, but the strain is much greater. I am now "one of those" - we make too much for a lot of help, but too little keep up with certain expenses.

And THAT is what an honest, hardworking family looks like compared to someone on assistance. I'm not saying it's right that people stay on it - only that I understand, because the gov. and corporate business makes working unprofitable. That's right, unprofitable.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Brother, you have a complete misunderstanding of Capitalism. Nowhere in your post did you describe the gunman forcing you to stay at your position. The whole point is that if you do more work or are more valuable to your company, then you should be compensated as such, and if you are not, you are FREE to either go to a different company or get the capital to start your own company to COMPETE with the one you left.

YOU MAKE the point of the blatant unfairness of socialism with your post.

Have a blessed day.

you think my job is a socialist job?

i do work in America, and this job i went to this morning is a capitalist one, based here in America. their sole motive is profit.
i outperformed everyone else by 500% today - but do i get paid anywhere near 5x what a new hire does? no. 11% more than a new hire, and i had to send 7 angry letters & threaten to quit before i got that.

what i said was that "it would be nice" if i was compensated for how much value i bring to the company. but i'm not. "it would be nice" if my reward was commensurate with my performance -- but it's not. and that's not "because, socialism" -- it's because the people that run this district don't care. they get bonuses for cutting cost - so having me around means they get a big check around Christmas, and i don't get any of it. that's why threatening to quit made a small impact.

you can say "YOU ARE FREE" to go and get some other non-existent job. sure. tell me some more about the unemployment rate...? the "gun" that forces me to stay here is the shrinking job market and the bills i have to pay. it's not cheap giving away shirts LOL!


i have three jobs. and i do freelance consulting work. it's just this job in particular that doesn't pay fair wage or reward performance -- i'm paid well in two of the other jobs, and when i consult i generally set my own fees. so my point is that "not being socialist" in no way guarantees anyone will be paid "fairly." next time you're at walmart, ask your cashier about that. see if she can explain to you why the prices are low there :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I respect your opinion about saying this parable is not about salvation, but I really disagree with you.



oh no no -- i said it's not only about salvation, not that it isn't about salvation at all. it's clear; He has saved us all by faith, not by our works, so the one with no works, but who believes, is saved just as well as the one who has many works -- just as the Gentiles are brought in, at a late hour, though Israel has worked as it were, since dawn.

but we can get understanding about other things from this teaching too :) -- for example a work ethic, as we agree
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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I have all the right to feel this is an unfair model and try to find a job that respects my qualities as a worker and reward me for that.
hey, i do have that right - and that's beautiful, if i can find such a place!
the job i worked at this morning, i do the same type of work for another smaller company where i'm paid literally almost twice the hourly rate that the first job pays. there, i'm treated with a lot of respect - everyone is - and every time i work with those people, my heart swells, because i'm so thankful, and it's just such a much different atmosphere altogether. oddly enough, it's run by a bunch of immigrant Mexican-born idealists :) -- and the other place, that's unfair, is run by "good ol' boy" white Americans with a long history in this country.
those mutli-generational Americans recognize how to squeeze all the profit out of their labor force, and the executives make a lot of money. my bosses there do not work - they just make schedules and delegate.
the 1st-generation Mexican immigrants recognize the value of hard work and of treating the "little people" well -- there aren't 'executives' in the company; my superiors work just as hard as i do and don't make very much more than me.
only trouble is, i can rarely get more than 3 days of work per week there. there just isn't enough of that type of business in my area. so i have to supplement it with other work.

this isn't socialism. it's how non-unionized, capitalist American businesses are. if you find a place with good people, who operate by good principles, cherish it, and be thankful - because though it's nice to say things like "you're free to go find better work" or that market pressure will make everyone treat all their employees fairly, that's not really how it pans out everywhere in reality. we have good, and we have bad. i expect that no matter what the economic system is in anyone's country, it's the same all over -- i think this is a heart issue, not a form of government or socio-economic schema issue.
 
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coby2

Guest
Everything is just unfair. I know someone in Brazil who gets paid almost nothing for working much harder than me. Flipside of socialism is: she's not welcome to stay here, only if you're rich you're welcome.
I just saw a guy working his socks off to clean our dishes during the break. I have done that work. It's really hard work and you get nothing. Only if you have an education or if you talk well you get paid better.
 

posthuman

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I just saw a guy working his socks off to clean our dishes during the break. I have done that work. It's really hard work and you get nothing. Only if you have an education or if you talk well you get paid better.
i used to wash dishes for a living when i was young. i worked in a country club - and because i worked hard, and had a boss with a good heart, i wound up making more than people in chain-restaurants made as cooks. and he trained me to do other things, and put me in management positions, and made sure i got good treatment and favors whenever he could. he was openhanded with everyone that worked hard for him ((God bless you, Rob White!))
i was blessed then, to have landed in a place that had resources to pay people, but more especially to have a boss that appreciated me and was willing to fight for my cause to get me paid what he felt i was worth. that wasn't typical at all, for that kind of work.

:)

but i respect good dishwashers very much - it can be back-breaking work, and good ones are hard to find! for most, it's a dead-end, so they don't push themselves at all, like Jamie was saying.
 

posthuman

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for most, it's a dead-end, so they don't push themselves at all, like Jamie was saying.
see, this is the story in all kinds of service-industry, corporate "wage-slave" jobs in America. people aren't treated well, seen as replaceable, and not rewarded for good work ethic unless they are blessed to have immediate supervsors with good hearts who take up their cause.
so we have "laziness" in capitalist, consumerist America every bit as much as what people warn so much about in "dreaded socialist states" -- it's not because of a socio-economic system. because we have a whole lot of dead-end jobs that keep people who work as much as they can below poverty level - Jamie's right; that's reality for a whole lot of America.

we don't all live in big cities where the want-ads in the newspaper are 30 pages thick. i grew up in poor Appalachia - there, for a lot of people, working at a fast-food place or at wal-mart might literally be the best options they have, and neither one might earn them a living wage.
 
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coby2

Guest
see, this is the story in all kinds of service-industry, corporate "wage-slave" jobs in America. people aren't treated well, seen as replaceable, and not rewarded for good work ethic unless they are blessed to have immediate supervsors with good hearts who take up their cause.
so we have "laziness" in capitalist, consumerist America every bit as much as what people warn so much about in "dreaded socialist states" -- it's not because of a socio-economic system. because we have a whole lot of dead-end jobs that keep people who work as much as they can below poverty level - Jamie's right; that's reality for a whole lot of America.

we don't all live in big cities where the want-ads in the newspaper are 30 pages thick. i grew up in poor Appalachia - there, for a lot of people, working at a fast-food place or at wal-mart might literally be the best options they have, and neither one might earn them a living wage.
In the seventies everyone just got money for doing nothing, so people didn't want these kind of jobs and we got all those people from Morocco to do the dirty work. Then they got smart and thought: Why should we work? Now it's not like that anymore, but that was really bad.
 
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jaybird88

Guest
It's capitalistic with socialist elements and a democracy, we have a few parties and people can choose. The rich want the most capitalistic and anti social one, so they get the most and the work people want the socialist party. They have to work together. We have one small christian party that's really good, social, but not drugs legalization etc.
i was in Amsterdam back when i was a kid. i liked it.
do they still arrest Dutch citizens when they refuse to wear the wooden shoes? i will never understand many of the dutch ways.
 

jamie26301

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May 14, 2011
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but i respect good dishwashers very much - it can be back-breaking work, and good ones are hard to find! for most, it's a dead-end, so they don't push themselves at all, like Jamie was saying.
Where I worked at McDonald's, the supervisor had been working for the company for 30 years - she STARTED at a time when hard work paid, precision to detail paid off, and she was always harping on workers to do the same. Which, frankly, I can appreciate.

The reason I can appreciate it is the mere complacency of workers there. Sickening complacency. Now, I sympathize with them GETTING that way, because I was STARTING to.

But we had a dishwasher, which the purpose was to give the dishes a good wash-rinse. She taught to fill the sink with water, the other with sanitizer, scrub the dishes and then rinse them, AND THEN they go into the washer. Out of the two years I worked there, there was only one time I saw the sinks full - when I did them. Because in my naivete, I also bought the pipe dream. And I had a conscious to do my best.

But I saw people didn't scrub the egg off the spatula - they NEVER did. I'd say, if that McDonald's is typical (which it's not, it was actually a better franchise than most - crew appreciation trip to the amusement park every year, for one), but I'd say any given morning you eat eggs from McDonald's, eggs from yesterday was caked on the utensil. Your ice coffee was probably stirred with spoons (if that company uses silverware, I imagine some don't) that had coffee caked on them from yesterday because no one wanted to do that actual work of filling sinks and washing dishes properly.

But then, I kinda sympathize because often, unless someone helped, the drive through person (who takes orders AND takes money at the same time) is the only one who even gets around to doing dishes. One problem with these places is they pile too much responsibility on one person.

I'm not saying I wouldn't work that hard today, but as time went on, I got more and more discouraged... many people START out complacent because they already know what to expect, which is nothing. Service work is REALLY supposed to be a "stepping stone" in employment, through high school and college. But some people are older, don't have the same opportunities or skills as people who are younger (I worked there after being sick for a few years, and I was about 23 years old) and I take issue with those people being shamed for not wanting to work for next to nothing just so other people can feel better about their taxes being squandered in OTHER ways.

I'm not saying that not working, living off a check is good or justified... only that I understand the mental processes that ultimately leads to people doing that... and perhaps if we stop and extend understanding to these groups of people, ACTUALLY talk about the challenges they faced, they would be more inclined to lend an ear to solutions... don't you think?
 

posthuman

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In the seventies everyone just got money for doing nothing, so people didn't want these kind of jobs and we got all those people from Morocco to do the dirty work. Then they got smart and thought: Why should we work? Now it's not like that anymore, but that was really bad.

ha if we did that, we would have Latinos doing all out dirty work instead of Moroccans!
in a way we already do . . this is part of why we talk about having an immigrant problem here already - because people from Central America come to the country in large numbers. most of them are doing jobs that most Americans don't want to do. if we didn't employ them, they wouldn't keep coming. but Americans would rather take welfare, sell drugs, or just mooch of someone and complain about the job market than take a low-paying job that requires a lot of work. and the people that offer those jobs know they can find someone who is happy to take them, because to the people coming from Central America, our minimum wage is way more opportunity than what they have in their own countries. so why should i pay you the $15/hr you want to tend my fruit trees or wash cars? i can get José to do it for $7.25, and he won't complain, and he'll show up for work on time every day.
 

posthuman

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I'm not saying that not working, living off a check is good or justified... only that I understand the mental processes that ultimately leads to people doing that... and perhaps if we stop and extend understanding to these groups of people, ACTUALLY talk about the challenges they faced, they would be more inclined to lend an ear to solutions... don't you think?

it would sure work a lot better than just calling them "liberal leftist takers" or saying they are poor because they are lazy, i think. it doesn't do someone much good to tell them they are free to go start their own business when they're in their 30's or 40's with no education and barely making their rent and car payments working at burger king next to 16 year olds. what they need is opportunity and encouragement, not to be fussed at, i think.
 

jamie26301

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it would sure work a lot better than just calling them "liberal leftist takers" or saying they are poor because they are lazy, i think.

I generally wouldn't listen to the following, or even entertain it...

it doesn't do someone much good to tell them they are free to go start their own business when they're in their 30's or 40's with no education and barely making their rent and car payments working at burger king next to 16 year olds.
if it was proceeded with insults like above.

The issue I take with these kinds of insults, is that they speak to the heart and motivation, more than they do any empirical evidence. Some people take the check, because they counted the costs, and found it was better to just stay on welfare, and work just so many hours not to lose it.

Many of us who was/is on welfare: We don't LIKE being thought of as lazy, we don't LIKE having to depend on someone else for money. But what we like and don't like in our mind and social thinking competes what what our BODY likes - namely food and shelter. The second trumps the first - dang near every time.

And for looking so rich and "well off," well, there are (as we have already seen on this thread) many stereotypes and myths surrounding the issue. (You know there are nice clothes and fake name brand purses - you'd have to know the product to know it's real, and know the person as the WHEN THEY BOUGHT IT- you can find nice things in thrift stores. I had a gov phone myself briefly - the gov doesn't deal smartphones. And so forth.) I might link a few articles later.

what they need is opportunity and encouragement, not to be fussed at, i think.
Opportunity would be best extended by changing some laws on assets for those on welfare by increasing them, so they can build a little wealth, IN ORDER TO PREPARE to let go of assistance.

And did I mention most people on welfare DO work? The welfare queen with ten kids is really a myth, and more the exception than the rule. If people are already working on assistance, and seeing the actual numbers coming in already, doesn't it stand to reason they don't let go of the check for a reason?
 

Jesus4ever

Senior Member
May 18, 2015
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[/FONT][/SIZE]If I may, that is not what he said - he said it is not ONLY about salvation.

The genius of parables, proverbs, and other figurative forms of teaching is that they teach more than one thing at a time - it is the listener who interprets that for themselves.

With the parable of the lost son, for example: I've heard one woman talks about at some points in her life, certain situations meant the parables was targeting her as the proud son, other times she identified more with the lost son. Other circumstances made her sympathize with the "unfair" compassion of the Father.

The lost son got "more" than the son who had been faithful and did his duty - it is another parable that is not only about salvation (meaning both/and) but also about being content with the gifts you've been given.



Certainly! Many of us are only pointing to the parts of the current system that makes it unfair for the poor.

Here in the States, people getting assistance is not the problem, imo. The gov regulations and requirements for that assistance is what's unfair. Because here, IF you try to go to work, and you put in so many hours/wages (which your wages are figured by gross), you get a good chunk of assistance taken away.

Some people may cry "well, that's fair, you don't need it, you're working." Um, no, it's not fair. The reason it's not fair is that you are only allowed, in assets, to have 2000 at one time (car and house doesn't count). In assets, that also includes anything valuable you may have, like expensive jewelry, or antiques. That is figured into your benefits - you have to report all that. And as far as the gov is concerned, it doesn't matter if that expensive ring has been in your family a few generations - it counts against you, because you should just be able to sell it and have some cash... how is that fair?

(I know all this, because I have been there, sat down, and counted the costs, looked at the laws, and tried to formulate a plan).

Now, cost of living is high here. So, I can only save 2000 dollars, before my network AND higher wages cuts into my benefits. Now here's the rub - as I start working, (and while my GROSS income is what is figured, remember I will start paying taxes), I lose more and more benefits. If you do the math, you lose MORE benefits than you gained working. Iow, there is no financial incentive to let go of welfare, because they penalize you saving a nest egg.

So, remember that I only started out with 2000 when I went to work? Well, I gotta use that, with my new income, to pay rent MONTHLY (here ranges from like 300 for efficiency apartments to 600 - for good prices - oh and unless it's gov subsidized, it tends to go up every year or every few years. My old apartment would go up like 25 or 50 dollars every year.), buy food cos my little bit of gross took it all away, maintenance for my car (if I had one - and keeping a car requires insurance - it's law here - upkeep of the car, and gas - that's a large expense), utilities, clothes, household supplies/cleaners, internet (a source of information for finding jobs and such), good ole what-if medical insurance, and so forth.

Now, I'm being humble, getting off my "lazy" butt and working a job "beneath me" and my hours vary, I'm making 7.25 an hour BEFORE taxes, and oh, did I tell you most service work jobs here WILL NOT give you full time?

Beg for more hours, and you're probably NOT going to get them, because the managers don't make the decisions - corporate does. So, the people who actually knows what's going on in the store, who works hard and who doesn't, can't make that decision to reward hard work and penalize laziness. I've actually had a big dog, a district manager, compliment me and say "I've heard good things about you." Compliments are nice, but they don't pay the rent.

One reason people don't like "beneath you" jobs is there is NO incentive to work hard. I think many people don't work hard, because you DON'T GET REWARDED FOR IT. So why break my back doing a good job, people think, when Billy Bob over here doing nothing gets paid the same? Oh and this is corporate American - this happens union or no union (Another factor to this is worker's rights states - WV, where I was, was one of them).

I did it for two years, and got burnt out. Why? Because I get on my knees, I scrub, I was fast, I paid attention to detail, I did very good - but someone over here, who just pushes a broom a little bit, chats with customers, hides in the restroom, makes it TWO positions higher than me, because hard work isn't what's rewarded in those places - it's personality, that you-either-have-it-or-you-don't kinda thing.

And these jobs, service work, is not intended anyway to be a fixed source of income, nor can they be - which is why when people complain about others' "mooching" and not making a living off these incomes like "honest" people, really grinds my gears... because YOU CAN'T.

We are not a producing nation - we once was. A producing nation values hard work, because that is how you get things done. You want a very good product because people saved for it. However, we are now a consuming nation. You borrow to have things, cos you just can't wait and save like your grandparents did, and so, what is valued now is putting on a face, because that is how you get someone to use their credit and buy something from you.

Many people criticizing socialist aspects are older, or grew up with older parents - they saw America at a certain time when certain rules applied. They don't apply anymore. Hard work is not the key, anymore. What you produce - a clean lobby, and fast service - is not the key anymore and I know FROM EXPERIENCE. So, it's easy to get discouraged AND EVEN SO, higher positions from the bottom doesn't pay all that much more anyway, including swing managers.

So I have a hard time getting what I need from my humble, hard working job. "Get another job!" Factor in that for me, I had to ride the bus - no car. So I have to work around that schedule. Also factor in that many companies forbid you to work for their competitors at the same time. McDonald's isn't going to let you work for Burger King at the same time, which would have been a short walk for me between shifts working at both.

"Learn a trade!" How am I supposed to do that with no money for college or vocational school? How do I do that with no direction from someone? Train on the job? Many jobs don't want to train ya - cos that's what school is for! Oh wait, but, I don't have money for school, and frankly, going into debt for 10s of 1000s of dollars I will probably never pay back is not worth it to me when I can take it easy on welfare.

People may say "save up money anyway!" I've had MULTIPLE people tell me, "just hide money in your apartment." Heh, that is illegal, and if you get caught, POSSIBLE PRISON TIME because to tell the gov. you have less than you do, or to not update them on change of income is a little vice called FRAUD and a very serious crime here... people do it all the time, though, and one (though not the only) reason the laws get tighter and tighter.

For mean personally, I found a solution, though I didn't see it to fruition because I feel in love, got married, and bye bye benefits. I used the PASS program - work incentive Social Security. That is how I paid for three semesters of schooling. However the classes I could sign up for where limited cos I took the bus. And the PASS is only available to people eligible for SSI - not the same as welfare. Though people take issue with gov funded education for people on welfare and I don't understand it because that is how you learn certain trades in this country. So, for people who rail against socialism... sometimes I think they more or less rail against the poor than anyone else.

Bottom line - before I meant my husband, being on assistance, I LIVED BETTER. Yes, I did, not in emotional and happiness sense, but finally I was more secure even when I worked - just had to watch my hours. For about a year and a half, both I and my husband worked for the family business, we were paid what the business could afford, and I did better financially under disability insurance, with a check and insurance card. I'm happier now, but the strain is much greater. I am now "one of those" - we make too much for a lot of help, but too little keep up with certain expenses.

And THAT is what an honest, hardworking family looks like compared to someone on assistance. I'm not saying it's right that people stay on it - only that I understand, because the gov. and corporate business makes working unprofitable. That's right, unprofitable.



Please, feel free to post every time you want, sister.

Yes, I didn´t read brother´s posthuman post correctly. My mistake! :)


I understand how you feel. From what you refer, it seems there are many liberal/leftism/"social" policies there...! Losing money after working instead of not doing it? Well, that´s what happens here, in Portugal. Here, for example, many people who have unemployment allowance, prefer to reject jobs that end up giving them less discretionary money in the end of the month, compared to the amount they gain staying at home, not working...!

From what you wrote I see unfairness also.

Do you believe America got worse after Clinton? Or do you think Obama is doing a good job?
 

Jesus4ever

Senior Member
May 18, 2015
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oh no no -- i said it's not only about salvation, not that it isn't about salvation at all. it's clear; He has saved us all by faith, not by our works, so the one with no works, but who believes, is saved just as well as the one who has many works -- just as the Gentiles are brought in, at a late hour, though Israel has worked as it were, since dawn.

but we can get understanding about other things from this teaching too :) -- for example a work ethic, as we agree
Yes, brother, you´re right! I didn´t read it well! I´m sorry! :)
 

Jesus4ever

Senior Member
May 18, 2015
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hey, i do have that right - and that's beautiful, if i can find such a place!
the job i worked at this morning, i do the same type of work for another smaller company where i'm paid literally almost twice the hourly rate that the first job pays. there, i'm treated with a lot of respect - everyone is - and every time i work with those people, my heart swells, because i'm so thankful, and it's just such a much different atmosphere altogether. oddly enough, it's run by a bunch of immigrant Mexican-born idealists :) -- and the other place, that's unfair, is run by "good ol' boy" white Americans with a long history in this country.
those mutli-generational Americans recognize how to squeeze all the profit out of their labor force, and the executives make a lot of money. my bosses there do not work - they just make schedules and delegate.
the 1st-generation Mexican immigrants recognize the value of hard work and of treating the "little people" well -- there aren't 'executives' in the company; my superiors work just as hard as i do and don't make very much more than me.
only trouble is, i can rarely get more than 3 days of work per week there. there just isn't enough of that type of business in my area. so i have to supplement it with other work.

this isn't socialism. it's how non-unionized, capitalist American businesses are. if you find a place with good people, who operate by good principles, cherish it, and be thankful - because though it's nice to say things like "you're free to go find better work" or that market pressure will make everyone treat all their employees fairly, that's not really how it pans out everywhere in reality. we have good, and we have bad. i expect that no matter what the economic system is in anyone's country, it's the same all over -- i think this is a heart issue, not a form of government or socio-economic schema issue.

Again, the problem is the way people behave, it´s their heart. Your boss is not the brightest fellow also, as, in my beliefs, rewarding best workers is a win/win situation. Rewarding best workers and making them feel well at their work, it´s vital for company health and future!

For example, here, in Portugal, we have big companies too, as we also have medium and small ones. Some of the best have very good results precisely because they reward their best workers! The problem is, as usual, the the vast majority of people earns about 3 to €4 an hour, working at least 40 h a week. If course, in these cases bosses don´t care about rewarding/promoting the best. These people earn about €165 per week, or €660 a month. Living with this wage here is hard, believe me.
 

jamie26301

Senior Member
May 14, 2011
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I understand how you feel. From what you refer, it seems there are many liberal/leftism/"social" policies there...! Losing money after working instead of not doing it? Well, that´s what happens here, in Portugal. Here, for example, many people who have unemployment allowance, prefer to reject jobs that end up giving them less discretionary money in the end of the month, compared to the amount they gain staying at home, not working...!

From what you wrote I see unfairness also.
We certainly have socialist aspects - but that doesn't mean you HAVE all out socialism.

Do you believe America got worse after Clinton? Or do you think Obama is doing a good job?
I was a kid in the 90s - posthuman and jaybird could probably speak to this better than I could. I really don't have the perspective to answer that question.

But no, I don't think Obama is doing a good job.