Once saved, always saved

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J

John146

Senior Member
#561
Jan 13, 2016
17,085
3,677
113
#561
eternally-gratefull said:
I do not make up stories and say one part of scripture is not related to me to make a seeming contradiction go away.

I interpret it for what it says.

Paul said we are saved by faith alone, But those who are saved will do the works God created us to do (eph 2: 8-10) James said if I claim that I have faith but do not have the works Paul said I would do(eph 2: 10). Then my faith is dead (no faith at all) thus I need to examine myself. because I am deceived in thinking I have faith. I am not saved, why? Because as paul said, I am saved by faith alone, I am not saved if I do not have faith period. .

Paul spoke to jews to. He spoke to legalistic Jews. James spoke to licentious jews. Same people, Different context.
Click to expand...
Ephesians 2:10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

We should walk in them, not must, not will. A Christian should go on to good works. I am not justified by my faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ. James is taking you back to OT times because God is once again dealing with the nation of Israel. In the OT, a man had to live by his own faith through the demonstration of works. The faith of Christ was not even available to them yet.

Galatians 2
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#562
Jan 13, 2016
17,085
3,677
113
#562
BrotherJustin said:
"James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works."

This article does a good job of answering the question: Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?
Click to expand...
The question James is answering is not will works follow faith, but rather, will faith save him?

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"
 
B

BrotherJustin

Guest
#563
#563
John146 said:
Ephesians 2:10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

We should walk in them, not must, not will. A Christian should go on to good works. I am not justified by my faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ. James is taking you back to OT times because God is once again dealing with the nation of Israel. In the OT, a man had to live by his own faith through the demonstration of works. The faith of Christ was not even available to them yet.

Galatians 2
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Click to expand...
Works without faith is no faith at all.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#564
Jan 13, 2016
17,085
3,677
113
#564
BrotherJustin said:
Works without faith is no faith at all.
Click to expand...
Ok, are you justified by your faith or the faith of Christ? Paul let's us know whose faith justifies...

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Again, the faith of Christ was not available to the OT saints.
 
B

BrotherJustin

Guest
#565
#565
John146 said:
Ok, are you justified by your faith or the faith of Christ? Paul let's us know whose faith justifies...

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Again, the faith of Christ was not available to the OT saints.
Click to expand...
What do you mean, "...are you justified by your faith or the faith of Christ?" - ?

To me, "your faith" and "the faith of Christ" seem the same--for, my faith is in Christ.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#566
Jan 13, 2016
17,085
3,677
113
#566
BrotherJustin said:
What do you mean, "...are you justified by your faith or the faith of Christ?" - ?

To me, "your faith" and "the faith of Christ" seem the same--for, my faith is in Christ.
Click to expand...
My faith waivers but Christ's faith never waivers. Christ demonstrated His faith through the cross.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#567
#567
John146 said:
The question James is answering is not will works follow faith, but rather, will faith save him?

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"
Click to expand...
We need to get serious here, James is talking about people who CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH but has no works that follow it.

He is not talking to all people who have faith He never said they had faith at all. He just said he claimed to have faith. That is a HUGE difference.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#568
#568
John146 said:
My faith waivers but Christ's faith never waivers. Christ demonstrated His faith through the cross.
Click to expand...

Your faith is still faith.. Unlike the people James were talking to. unless you are a hearer of the word and not a doer.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#569
#569
John146 said:
Ephesians 2:10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

We should walk in them, not must, not will. A Christian should go on to good works. I am not justified by my faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ. James is taking you back to OT times because God is once again dealing with the nation of Israel. In the OT, a man had to live by his own faith through the demonstration of works. The faith of Christ was not even available to them yet.

Galatians 2
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Click to expand...
please do not put words in people mouths,

There is no must about it,

A person saved by faiht is made a new creature, this new creature has a nature that does works.. To nor work is against his nature, thats why if you just have a claimed faith you will have no work.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#570
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#570
John146 said:
That's not appropriate reasoning. We are to read and study all Scripture with the understanding of who is the audience. Do you obey all Scripture? Of course not. Why? Because you have the understanding that portions of Scripture are not for you to obey. Know the audience and apply the doctrine taught appropriately.
Click to expand...
You are making an application to James that is incorrect. Are you going to determine which scriptures to obey and which scriptures to reject? That seems pretty dangerous to me.

It is indeed all profitable for doctrine for reproof and for correction. Let's hope you start to do better to create some confidence that you can rightly divide the word of truth. Off to a rather shaky start.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#571
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#571
John146 said:
Ok, are you justified by your faith or the faith of Christ? Paul let's us know whose faith justifies...

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Again, the faith of Christ was not available to the OT saints.
Click to expand...
What is the faith of Christ if it is not grace? Were the OT saints saved by grace? Absolutely without question. Salvation by grace and Gods grace.

How do we measure the love of God for us? Look to the cross of Calvary and beyond the cross to the empty tomb.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
B

BrotherJustin

Guest
#572
#572
John146 said:
My faith waivers but Christ's faith never waivers. Christ demonstrated His faith through the cross.
Click to expand...
To have faith is to accept the word of another (God / Christ) about some matter. But Christ was God.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#573
Jan 13, 2016
17,085
3,677
113
#573
notuptome said:
You are making an application to James that is incorrect. Are you going to determine which scriptures to obey and which scriptures to reject? That seems pretty dangerous to me.

It is indeed all profitable for doctrine for reproof and for correction. Let's hope you start to do better to create some confidence that you can rightly divide the word of truth. Off to a rather shaky start.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Click to expand...
Did you build an ark? Why not? Do you make sacrifices? Why not? Did you go to Nineveh and cry out "yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown." Why not? Because you have determined which Scriptures to follow and which Scriptures are not meant for a believer today to follow.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#574
Jan 13, 2016
17,085
3,677
113
#574
notuptome said:
What is the faith of Christ if it is not grace? Were the OT saints saved by grace? Absolutely without question. Salvation by grace and Gods grace.

How do we measure the love of God for us? Look to the cross of Calvary and beyond the cross to the empty tomb.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Click to expand...
Not one person in the OT knew about the cross. There are pictures and types and prophecies but no one look forward to the day where Jesus would die on the cross. The Lord's closest disciples didn't have a clue.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#575
#575
John146 said:
Did you build an ark? Why not? Do you make sacrifices? Why not? Did you go to Nineveh and cry out "yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown." Why not? Because you have determined which Scriptures to follow and which Scriptures are not meant for a believer today to follow.
Click to expand...
Did God tell us to build an ark, To offer sacrifices? to go to ninevah? Those are specific jobs God gave certain peopel to do and thats your line of reasoning?

Do you commit adultry, Murder, Dishonor your parents because the OT was not written to you?
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#576
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
692
113
#576
John146 said:
The question James is answering is not will works follow faith, but rather, will faith save him?

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"
Click to expand...
You really are a stumbling block. There is a definite article in the text which makes the verse say can the faith save him, which refers back to the faith he just described, i.e., a non-working faith.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#577
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#577
John146 said:
Did you build an ark? Why not? Do you make sacrifices? Why not? Did you go to Nineveh and cry out "yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown." Why not? Because you have determined which Scriptures to follow and which Scriptures are not meant for a believer today to follow.
Click to expand...
My obedience to those scriptures is in the fact that I believe them. I believe the Genesis account of creation as well and the tower of Babel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#578
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#578
John146 said:
Not one person in the OT knew about the cross. There are pictures and types and prophecies but no one look forward to the day where Jesus would die on the cross. The Lord's closest disciples didn't have a clue.
Click to expand...
Isaiah 53 describes a suffering Messiah. Didn't see because they did not want to see. The OT also states that cursed is the man who is hung on a tree.

De 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#579
Jan 13, 2016
17,085
3,677
113
#579
notuptome said:
My obedience to those scriptures is in the fact that I believe them. I believe the Genesis account of creation as well and the tower of Babel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Click to expand...
Ok, so you believe them. So do I. But I don't obey them because we both know that is not our doctrine to obey.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#580
Jan 13, 2016
17,085
3,677
113
#580
Paul is very clear that the faith that saved him has no words attached to it whatsoever.

Philippians 3:9, "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"

My righteousness is through the faith of Christ. His righteousness has been imputed to my account at the moment of belief no matter if I go on to good works or not.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.