Baptisms

[oldhermit]

But meaningless with out the cross. You are placing emphasis on water baptism and not the cross and adding to what God has done. What good is baptism with out the cross the focus should be on the cross and not water.

Still no answer to my questions

I think you do not really understand what I am saying about water baptism. Let us take a look at Romans 6:3-9

3"Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him."

Here is what Paul says takes place when one is baptized, v3
In baptism we are placed into Christ and into his death, v3
In baptism we are are buried WITH him into death, v4
Similarly in baptism, we are also raised in new life, v4
In baptism we are united WITH him in the likeness of his death, v5
In baptism our old self is crucified WITH him, v6
In baptism our body of sin is removed. v6
In baptism we are freed from sin, v7.
In baptism we have died with Christ, v8

There is nothing magical about the water. The water does not do these things. These are things that God does when we have obeyed what he has commanded us to do in baptism. God has given us baptism as the way of uniting us with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and this is where he has chosen to remove our sins.

 

[oldhermit]

No I just need to shake the preachers hand and have my head dunked or sprinkled with water

Sprinkling is not baptism.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Like wise, but yall preach that if I dunk my head in water by a preacher then I'm saved, Is that not so?

Only if you have faith.

 

[RobbyEarl]

Folks usually say Amen, but Okay is good.

The rest has been commented on throughout the two ongoing threads, not repeating myself just adding in more confirming verses

You go with the snip, that's the problem we snip this and snip that to fit it in or own belief never mind what the snip says. I Hold to the whole word of God and it snips me. I love you Pilgrim and pray that your eye's may be opened to the cross and Him Crucified. We want so badly to earn our salvation that we get blinded to it and boast in what we do, rather than what God did. If that offends you I sorry but it is the truth and I love you enough to tell you the truth. Yes we should be baptized I have no qualm with that, but to say we cannot be saved unless we are, makes the cross of no effect and a work of man rather than God. The focus become Baptism and not what the wholr bible is about and that is Christ and Him crucified.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

You go with the snip, that's the problem we snip this and snip that to fit it in or own belief never mind what the snip says. I Hold to the whole word of God and it snips me. I love you Pilgrim and pray that your eye's may be opened to the cross and Him Crucified. We want so badly to earn our salvation that we get blinded to it and boast in what we do, rather than what God did. If that offends you I sorry but it is the truth and I love you enough to tell you the truth. Yes we should be baptized I have no qualm with that, but to say we cannot be saved unless we are, makes the cross of no effect and a work of man rather than God. The focus become Baptism and not what the wholr bible is about and that is Christ and Him crucified.

The snip isnt the problem, its cutting out the wrangling against the scripture which were added for confirmation not wrest with it with you.

I didnt snip the whole word of God, I dont consider the whole post of RobbyEarl to be that.

You seem to be really lost on much of what I have posted and if you want to know you will need to search both threads, but I am not in a very comfortable present (offline) position to be repeating myself (which I will leave at that).

You dont offend me, I dont even read you, I prefer posters who post to confirm the scriptures to the endless wrangling and contradicting and railing that goes on here.

I will typically pass over anyone who speaks from themselves too much (I am just not interested)

Just posting scripture to the thread not to you there.

 

[mpaper345]

Water baptism is essential as part of the salvation plan of God,and if it is part of the salvation plan of God,then it comes from God,and not from us,so we have to take heed to it.

The Bible says baptism does now save us,not the washing away of the filth of the flesh,but a good conscience towards God.

Jesus said he that believes,and is baptized,shall be saved.

Jesus said we must be born of water,and the Spirit.

The Bible says if we are buried in the likeness of Christ's death,planted together with Him,then we shall rise to newness of life,along with Christ.

The people in the book of Acts,that were baptized unto John's baptism,had to be rebaptized in the name of the Lord.

We have to identify with the man Christ Jesus,who as a human went through 3 steps in providing salvation for mankind,and we being human have to go through those 3 steps,but we are a living sacrifice unto God.

The sins of the world were placed upon Jesus,and He died,and was buried,laying down those sins,and rose again,and we have to repent of our sins,dying out to sin,being water baptized,laying down those sins,and we rise to newness of life,receiving the Spirit.

Water baptism is essential,and is part of the salvation plan of God,and comes from God,and not from us.

As far as the thief on the cross,we can only do what we can do,and we can only follow that which we know,which in certain circumstances baptism can be bypassed,because God is a fair,and just God,that will overlook some things,if it is a legitimate reason,which people not knowing the truth of the Bible,and Jesus,can have a chance to be with God,after the millennial reign of Christ,when the dead rise to be judged,if they met the criteria,which they did not have to be water baptized,but will be judged on their belief in a higher power,that loves people for He provided for their needs,which creation testifies of this,and their conscience,for love is the fulfilling of the law,so if they lived their life loving people,because they saw in creation,that it is what they should do,and had a repentant heart to honestly do what is right,they should be able to be with the saints after the millennial reign of Christ.

We can only do what we can do,and we can only follow that which we know,so baptism can be bypassed in certain circumstances,if it is a legitimate reason.

1.The thief on the cross acknowledged Jesus as Lord,and Saviour,when he said,Lord remember me when you come in to your kingdom,and Jesus said,today you will be with Me in paradise.Baptism was bypassed because the thief had no way to be baptized,for he was on the cross,and could not do it,and God is a fair,and just God,that will not condemn him for something out of his control.The thief was saved.

2.Somebody comes to Christ,and accepts Him as Lord,and Saviour,and believes the full Gospel message,and even water baptism,and does not haste to get baptized,but on the way to the Church to perform the baptism,the person is in a car accident,and dies,not being able to get to water baptism,water baptism is bypassed,for God is a fair,and just God,and will not condemn the person for something that is out of the person's control,for God knew it was in the person's heart to get baptized,but tragedy struck,so baptism is bypassed,and the person is saved.

3.Lack of understanding about baptism,with the person honestly not trying to deny truth,but reading the Bible,or not able to get a Bible yet,but never gets around to understanding water baptism,with no fault of the person,and dies not being water baptized,whenever the person dies,which this lack of understanding coming from the preachers mainly,not preaching water baptism,which can apply to a foreign country,where the preachers,preach Christ,and His shed blood,and they believe with all their heart,but the preachers do not preach water baptism,so the people do not look for it,and might not get around to ever understanding it,and they die,water baptism is bypassed,for God is a fair,and just God,and the person is saved.

Or any circumstance,that is a legitimate reason,with no fault on the person's part,that they do not get water baptized,water baptism can be bypassed,for God is a fair,and just God,and the person saved.

We must be born of water,and the Spirit,but in certain circumstances water baptism can be bypassed,if it is a legitimate reason,for why it did not get performed,and out of the control of the person,for the Old Testament saints were not water baptized,and they shall enter the gates of heaven,and people that never heard the truth,that believed in a higher power,and loved people,and met the criteria,were not water baptized,and they shall enter the gates of heaven.

But to people that hear we have to be water baptized,and do not check it out,and ignore it,for whatever reason,they refuse to believe,because of their own belief,or faulty preaching,when God said when somebody claims to be preaching the word of God,then search the scriptures daily to see if it is true,and they hear we have to be water baptized,and but do not want to believe it,or check it out,they will be accountable,especially when people show them scriptures,of even Jesus Himself saying we have to be water baptized,and they do not believe it,then they will be accountable.

So anybody that preaches the full Gospel of Christ to somebody,the burden lies on them,with what they will do with that,and they will be accountable,but some preachers do not preach the full Gospel,and some people,with no fault of their own,with a legitimate reason,never understand it,like foreign countries,but believe in repenting,and the blood of Christ,if it is no fault of their own,baptism can be bypassed.

As far as people looking at water baptism as works,it comes from God,and not from us.

Also they have works confused,for the book of Romans is addressed to the Gentiles,to point them to Christ,and not saved by works is not talking about after we are saved,but Paul is telling the Gentiles that they are not saved by their works,lest any man should boast,but they are saved by accepting Jesus,because Paul was pointing them to Christ,which means,Paul was telling the Gentiles that they are not saved in their religions,and their works,to think they have favor with God,and a relationship with God,apart from Christ,but they have a relationship,and favor with God,by accepting Jesus.

Not saved by works is not talking about after a person is saved,but it is saying that anything we do,any works we do,apart from Christ,will not save us,or benefit us,but only by accepting Christ,are we saved,and then after we are saved we have to have works of the Spirit,to have faith active in our life.

Not saved by works is talking to the Gentiles,that they are not saved by their works,in their religions,apart from Christ,for if a person is without Christ,their righteousness is as filthy rags,and there is none that does good,no,not one,but they are saved by accepting Christ,and receiving His Spirit.

So since not saved by works is not talking after we are saved,then water baptism cannot be a work that is apart from Christ,which not saved by works is talking apart from Christ,and it comes from God,and not from us.

 

[mailmandan]

You're so wrong. Anti-type means the reality, or fulfillment, of the type. Antiupon is the etymological root of the word antitype .

And who was wrong in post #162? The Greek word “antitupon,” as used in I Peter 3: 21, is “an adjective, used as a noun,” and denotes, in the NT, “a corresponding type,” being “said of baptism.” “The circumstances of the flood, the ark and its occupants, formed a type, and baptism forms “a corresponding type,” each setting forth the spiritual realities of the death, burial, and resurrection of believers in their identification with Christ.

It is not a case of type and antitype, but of two types, that in Genesis, the type, and baptism, the corresponding type.” Noah was saved by the ark “through (via) water.” Water was not the means of their salvation, but the ARK. The ARK is what both delivered and preserved them, the two aspects of “salvation.” Their “salvation” was typical of the salvation promised to the Christian. It pictured it. So also does Christian baptism picture salvation and reveal, symbolically, the gospel.

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

 

[mailmandan]

The bible says that those who hear but don't do are liars. There is more to faith than just believing.

Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Christ for salvation. Obedience which follows and is produced "out of faith" is works. As soon as you confuse the root of salvation (faith in Christ) with the fruit of salvation (good works) you have crossed the line into salvation by works. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of saving faith, but not the essence of saving faith and not the means of our salvation. So faith is the root and good works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit at all would demonstrate that there is no root.

 

[Grace777x70]

And who was wrong in post #162? The Greek word “antitupon,” as used in I Peter 3: 21, is “an adjective, used as a noun,” and denotes, in the NT, “a corresponding type,” being “said of baptism.” “The circumstances of the flood, the ark and its occupants, formed a type, and baptism forms “a corresponding type,” each setting forth the spiritual realities of the death, burial, and resurrection of believers in their identification with Christ.

It is not a case of type and antitype, but of two types, that in Genesis, the type, and baptism, the corresponding type.” Noah was saved by the ark “through (via) water.” Water was not the means of their salvation, but the ARK. The ARK is what both delivered and preserved them, the two aspects of “salvation.” Their “salvation” was typical of the salvation promised to the Christian. It pictured it. So also does Christian baptism picture salvation and reveal, symbolically, the gospel.

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

Well done Dan!

Trying to reason with works-based salvationists is like trying to baptize a cat in water. They will fight tooth and nail for their "works-based doctrine".

It is their only lifeline to Christ because it's based on what "they do" to obtain and maintain salvation - and they will not rely on what Christ has done for us by grace through faith only.

We pray that they receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness and thus find true life which can only be found in our Lord and to know the heart of our good, loving Father.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Thank you for your consistency in contending for the faith - which is the gospel of the grace of Christ alone for salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[tourist]

What would be an acceptable denomination to be baptized under? Where in the bible does it specifically say that a certain method is to be used? Where in the bible does it say that being baptized by an actual physical method is essential for salvation? It has been my understanding that confession of sins and the shed blood of Jesus is sufficient for salvation.

 

[Grace777x70]

What would be an acceptable denomination to be baptized under? Where in the bible does it specifically say that a certain method is to be used? Where in the bible does it say that being baptized by an actual physical method is essential for salvation? It has been my understanding that confession of sins and the shed blood of Jesus is sufficient for salvation.

Amen...I agree brother..and the good news gets better as we "get to be water baptized" as an outward sign of what already happened to us when we were baptized into Christ's death and resurrection to new life - the moment we believed in Christ. This water baptizing is done after we believed and received the grace of God and became obedient to the faith.

It's such a great blessing! We all need to be taught what really happened to us when we cam to Christ and water baptism time is great to show that truth and cement our minds into being in Christ now.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What would be an acceptable denomination to be baptized under? Where in the bible does it specifically say that a certain method is to be used? Where in the bible does it say that being baptized by an actual physical method is essential for salvation? It has been my understanding that confession of sins and the shed blood of Jesus is sufficient for salvation.

You need to consider if confession of sins and the shed blood of Jesus makes you a member of the new covenant. And then consider if a person who is not a member of that covenant can be saved.

 

[garee]

You go with the snip, that's the problem we snip this and snip that to fit it in or own belief never mind what the snip says. I Hold to the whole word of God and it snips me. I love you Pilgrim and pray that your eye's may be opened to the cross and Him Crucified. We want so badly to earn our salvation that we get blinded to it and boast in what we do, rather than what God did. If that offends you I sorry but it is the truth and I love you enough to tell you the truth. Yes we should be baptized I have no qualm with that, but to say we cannot be saved unless we are, makes the cross of no effect and a work of man rather than God. The focus become Baptism and not what the wholr bible is about and that is Christ and Him crucified.

I agree it’s simply that God is not served with human hands in any way shape or form. He is not worshiped by human hands and neither does he heal in respect to that seen. We walk by faith the unseen.

Thinking a person’s work in respect to a ceremonial law, that is designed as a shadow that points to unseen, eternal, as if there was something we could add to our salvation can only blind the mind.

Getting oneself wet with water neither saves a person or points as a sign they have been saved. I think it is designed for one purpose and that was to point ahead to the word Christian the new name God calls us as His kingdom of Priest, set aside, sanctified as Ambassadors or Christ our King sent as apostles from a foreign land (the kingdom of God not of here) .

In that way the Levitical priesthood were set aside to represent us on this side of the first century reformation. Again every new testament believer is considered a priest, there is no longer Jew and Gentile we are one in Christ, our King of kings.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The foundation in respect to water baptism has its roots in the Old Testament. It is what the John Levite was discussing with the other disciples in chapter 3. It is why Christ from the tribe of Judah who need a Levi to administer to baptism so he could begin the public ministry . Surely it was not a sign that Jesus had been born again.

Exodus 28:41 And thou shalt put them upon Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt anoint them, and consecrate them, and sanctify them, “that they may minister unto me in the priest's office”.

It is not us who we are ministering to.

Exodus 29:44 And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to me in the priest's office.

After Aaron's two sons where baptized to show they were ready to enter the kingdom of priests they took it upon themselves to add a little to the ceremonial.

And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD Lev 10:1

 

[KenAllan]

Now the question is, have our sins been forgiven because we have been Baptized or have our sins been forgiven because we have received Jesus as our Lord and Savior?

If all our sins can be forgiven just by being Baptized then what need do we have then of accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior?

All we would need to do is be Baptized over and over again for the remissions of our sins.

There are those who secretly bring in heresies to deceive people into following what they teach. The Catholic Church is a very good example of this.

Jesus told us there will be Wolves in our mists trying to destroy us with their false Doctrines.

 

[roaringkitten]

Now the question is, have our sins been forgiven because we have been Baptized or have our sins been forgiven because we have received Jesus as our Lord and Savior?

If all our sins can be forgiven just by being Baptized then what need do we have then of accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior?

All we would need to do is be Baptized over and over again for the remissions of our sins.

There are those who secretly bring in heresies to deceive people into following what they teach. The Catholic Church is a very good example of this.

Jesus told us there will be Wolves in our mists trying to destroy us with their false Doctrines.

That's what these water gospel wolves are doing. They bring in damnable heresy(ie: the water gospel) which is really an arm of Catholicism rearing it's ugly head. Almost every thread over the past several months in the BDF turns into a debate between works and grace because the same few heretics infect each thread with their heresies. We try to talk about the love of Christ and how he saved us, and how we are secure in Him, etc, and yet the wolves come in each time and hijack the threads with their works gospel. When they attack the gospel, they deny Christ, that's the bottom line. It is getting really old this nonsense that goes on here.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." 2 Pet 2:1

 

[garee]

Now the question is, have our sins been forgiven because we have been Baptized or have our sins been forgiven because we have received Jesus as our Lord and Savior?

If all our sins can be forgiven just by being Baptized then what need do we have then of accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior?

All we would need to do is be Baptized over and over again for the remissions of our sins.

There are those who secretly bring in heresies to deceive people into following what they teach. The Catholic Church is a very good example of this.

Jesus told us there will be Wolves in our mists trying to destroy us with their false Doctrines.

Yes crucify over and over as if once was not enough to pay the eternal wage of sin. We do not offer our own dead works towards Him because then one would be to many and and a thousand not enough..

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith (as our work) toward God,

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Now the question is, have our sins been forgiven because we have been Baptized or have our sins been forgiven because we have received Jesus as our Lord and Savior?

The real questions IMO are 1) are sins forgiven outside of the new covenant, and 2) what brings us into the new covenant?

 

[notuptome]

Where did he get the idea that he needed to be baptized?

Jewish traditions taught water baptism or washings to symbolize cleansing when a sacrifice was offered. The High Priest could not enter the inner sanctuary without having a ceremonial washing.

Water baptism is very much an OT Jewish ceremonial tradition.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[oldhermit]

Jewish traditions taught water baptism or washings to symbolize cleansing when a sacrifice was offered. The High Priest could not enter the inner sanctuary without having a ceremonial washing.

Water baptism is very much an OT Jewish ceremonial tradition.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I am not questioning this. Heb.6:2 verifies this. But surely you can see the difference between the ceremonial washings of the Law and NT baptism. But, those ceremonial washings of the Law of Moses had nothing to do with the conversion of the Eunuch. He was not being converted to Judaism but to Christianity.

 

[notuptome]

I am not questioning this. Heb.6:2 verifies this. But surely you can see the difference between the ceremonial washings of the Law and NT baptism. But, those ceremonial washings of the Law of Moses had nothing to do with the conversion of the Eunuch. He was not being converted to Judaism but to Christianity.

You asked where he got the idea and like many of our Christian rites and ceremonies they are descended from Judaism.

He was given proper discipleship about the meaning of water baptism so he received water baptism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger