from post #119
It is only controversial to those who are not willing to accept the TRUTH of Scriptures.
lol, NOT a punishment. Tell yourself whatever you want, but the TRUTH of the matter it was most certainly a punishment for eating the forbidden fruit.
Which is the outcome of either a Blessing or a punishment. Have you not read the Old Testament at all? God clearly said over and over again, if you do good and keep my commandments i will give you rain, etc.... If you do not keep my commandments i will not give you rain etc..... You can call it what you want, in order to justify your own thinking, but for thousands of years, it was considered a punishment. Leave it to the last days generation to take what was clearly a PUNISHMENT, and turn it into a statement of certain consequences. lol that seriously made me laugh out loud.
lol, let me rephrase the question for only you then? When did the consequences of Eve's disobedience end according to Scriptures? A part of her consequences of her disobedience was to have painful child birth. Has that ended? Did that cease at the cross? Or do women to this very day still suffer the consequences of Eve's disobedience? Another consequence that God ordained for the woman was that her husband shall rule over her. Has this consequence ended, and if so, please tell me what Scriptures teaches that that part of the consequences of Eve's disobedience has ended. Just wanting some Scriptural references to that part of the consequences ending, no longer applies.
Please notice i am not stating or voicing my opinion at all what it means to RULE, therefore NOT giving any kind of interpretation concerning that.
OK, Finally someone has answered the question i presented. The Consequences of sin continues it has not ended.
^i^
hi dave, this thread has sure become long since I first read the first posts. frankly, I cannot read all of the next few pp now, but in response to this recent reply, I think one of the issues raised in some of the posts is to some ppl, discipline and punishment are 2 very different things. I have come to the point where I have understood discipline to be training done in love (and actually positive), whereas punishment is more the negative consequence, the opposite of reward or price. No, it may not matter or be clear to some, but it is like when parents and God loves children, they prune/discipline the child whereas when they are hopelessly disobedient and rebellious, it may be the point where they cannot prune anymore and punish or cut off completely.
What I understood God did in Genesis 3 is discipline, not punishment, if that makes it any clearer. Now the big lie and misinterpretation came when thru many generations in many cultures, childbirth has changed from the simple, physiologic function of delivering a child happily as it was in jewish and early Christian women's lives. Childbirth was never always painful as most modern cultures, and esp American births (bec.this forum is predominantly American I say this) are now. and as (is it coby) cited, there is natural childbirth whether it be waterbirth, Lamaze, etc where women most definitely did not take too long to give birth, and not painfully too. Idk if u came across that thread on less known Bible gems in the singles forum, but I simply shared some truths gained from learning abt and personally experiencing this so called birth. This reply isn't long, but it basically has to do w/ Gen.3.16 saying the hard work of adam and eve (both etsev in Hebrew) are not different in the sense that eve had to have pain and travail in childbirth while adam had to work hard to till the earth to get harvest of its fruit. I believe the Christian writer where I first learned of natural childbirth and who painstakingly traced the origin of the false teaching and 'experience' that all women are doomed to have painful and difficult births was led by the Lord to let not only other women, but men and fathers, teachers and preachers too, that well, childbirth is not all painful in all mgenerations and cultures as most Bible translations now depict...
Here, I normally would not talk or write too much, esp in a rush, for as we many of us know, it is easier to make mistakes that way. but this is something close to my heart, and wc I have studied in my simple, curious mind-- the whys, hows of birthing, wc I am sure many many other women worldwide would testify to that they did give birth w. a little hard work, but not painful at all in 3, 4 hrs, not always 10 or so as sometimes-- actually often-- depicted in movies or writings etc.
