What do you mean Jason, can you explain with scripture... I do agree their has to be a change of heart.
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Amen..that is true...but the real issue is - he is contending "if you don't interpret Jesus's words exactly like I do - you are NOT obeying Christ". That is what people are being opposed to...not obedience. I have written at least 7 posts here in this thread saying we are to be obedient to Christ and I have seen a few others say the exact same thing.... so this "straw-man" about people that trust in the grace of Jesus' work on the cross are not obeying Jesus is bogus. That is the real issue.
Okay thanks clearing but still need to keep up reading all post, maybe late yet this is a nice way for me to comprehend the matter.
Thanks again
This will be the 4th time I wrote this very same thing in this thread....
I have not seen anyone in the "grace crowd" say NOT to obey Christ. That is a total mis-representation of the truth and it stems from not understanding the gospel of grace that is in Christ alone or not listening to what is really being said. We are to serve in newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
There is obedience in the New Covenant but it's source and motivation is different from the Old Covenant mindset of "doing in order to get". The Old Covenant was sourced on obeying rules and regulations.
The source of obedience in the New Covenant is from an exchanged life because we are new creations now in Christ and as we renew our minds to the truth and life that is in Jesus only - we walk out that life outwardly that reflects who we really are in Christ. We are created in righteousness and holiness in our inner man that is in Christ.
The fruit of His life in us flows through and in us to walk in love and obedience to a hurt and dying world and also to our brethren. It is not a matter of obeying rules - it's a matter of His life being expressed from us.
We are saved by grace through faith only in Christ's completed work. We then have good works but they are sourced by His life and love in us. No one that is believing in the grace of God says not to do good works.
We should all be living godly by the grace of God in our lives.
Grace believers may not agree when some people take scriptures out of context to try to prove that we need to do things in order to be saved like " Hebrews chapter 10 :26-29. " which is used continuously out of context.
Neither has any one that believes in the gospel of grace of Christ say there is no repentance in the believer. In fact, believers in the "gospel of grace " say we should be repenting constantly.
These are all mis-representations of what is really being said. Perhaps it's time to see what is really being said so that these continuous false accusations can be stopped and we can all grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ.
So, once more no believers in the "gospel of grace" say NOT to obey Christ. Repentance should be happening constantly as we learn new truth. No one says to "sin all you want" as we have said over 100 x times - that grace teaches us to live godly in this present world.
Let's put these false accusations to bed and walk on in the Lord Jesus as we grow in His grace and knowledge and let's encourage each other to walk out what Christ has already done for us.
Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
I have not seen anyone in the "grace crowd" say NOT to obey Christ. That is a total mis-representation of the truth and it stems from not understanding the gospel of grace that is in Christ alone or not listening to what is really being said. We are to serve in newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
There is obedience in the New Covenant but it's source and motivation is different from the Old Covenant mindset of "doing in order to get". The Old Covenant was sourced on obeying rules and regulations.
The source of obedience in the New Covenant is from an exchanged life because we are new creations now in Christ and as we renew our minds to the truth and life that is in Jesus only - we walk out that life outwardly that reflects who we really are in Christ. We are created in righteousness and holiness in our inner man that is in Christ.
The fruit of His life in us flows through and in us to walk in love and obedience to a hurt and dying world and also to our brethren. It is not a matter of obeying rules - it's a matter of His life being expressed from us.
We are saved by grace through faith only in Christ's completed work. We then have good works but they are sourced by His life and love in us. No one that is believing in the grace of God says not to do good works.
We should all be living godly by the grace of God in our lives.
Grace believers may not agree when some people take scriptures out of context to try to prove that we need to do things in order to be saved like " Hebrews chapter 10 :26-29. " which is used continuously out of context.
Neither has any one that believes in the gospel of grace of Christ say there is no repentance in the believer. In fact, believers in the "gospel of grace " say we should be repenting constantly.
These are all mis-representations of what is really being said. Perhaps it's time to see what is really being said so that these continuous false accusations can be stopped and we can all grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ.
So, once more no believers in the "gospel of grace" say NOT to obey Christ. Repentance should be happening constantly as we learn new truth. No one says to "sin all you want" as we have said over 100 x times - that grace teaches us to live godly in this present world.
Let's put these false accusations to bed and walk on in the Lord Jesus as we grow in His grace and knowledge and let's encourage each other to walk out what Christ has already done for us.
Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Here is another one from post #400..no body denies not being obedient to Christ.
Amen...Obedience is a fruit of the life of Christ in our inner man. It is not the root. It's the love of God manifesting Himself in and through us to a hurt and dying world and to our fellow brethren.
We obey our Lord and Father because we know Him and trust in His character and obedience is not a set of rules, but a love-trust relationship. When you know the love of God for us we will obey Him naturally and effortlessly.
I maintain that obedience is a fruit of the life of Christ in our inner man that is created in Christ. when we teach the grace of God this enables us to bear His fruit in and through us.
Amen...Obedience is a fruit of the life of Christ in our inner man. It is not the root. It's the love of God manifesting Himself in and through us to a hurt and dying world and to our fellow brethren.
We obey our Lord and Father because we know Him and trust in His character and obedience is not a set of rules, but a love-trust relationship. When you know the love of God for us we will obey Him naturally and effortlessly.
I maintain that obedience is a fruit of the life of Christ in our inner man that is created in Christ. when we teach the grace of God this enables us to bear His fruit in and through us.
I would say that we have slightly different understandings... I would not say you are not following Christ. I believe you do lift up Christ in what you say. I assume you do in your life, as well. Nobody can believe Jesus is God and not be in Him.
Like I said in a previous post, I think that the two beliefs are very similar.
Both sides believe we are to obey Jesus teachings.
Both sides believe we are saved through grace.
Both sides believe that works by believers "happen"
Both sides believe we, as saved believers, still sin, and are forgiven
Both sides use scripture to back up their beliefs.
Both sides believe they are "rightly dividing" the Word
If you really get to the nitty gritty of it all, the difference is in sanctification. Its necessity and how it is accomplished. That is where a lot of the disagreement comes from.
Yes, I believe this... this is a responsible and mature outlook though, and has to be worded as such or it could look like a lawless grace kind of scenario.
I don't mean to be rude HRFTD, but here you go: Google
You and I both know the result of this discussion, if it went down and it wouldn't be edifying in the long run. Simply put the emphasis is on the fruit of conversion and the necessity of it to be there, or else you aren't saved. Thats between God and man, not so called "fruit inspectors." The word says to "examine yourself." People need to be less judgy and more encouraging and exhorting so that people can walk as God has called them.
I will say, when I came to God.. I wasn't in the world I was at a camp, away from the world... When I got dropped back off into it, I went around old " friends " I felt immediately out of place. I didn't know what that was.. When you truly turn your heart to God, that should be the feeling when you go back to your vomit, a feeling of being out of place or in the wrong place.
I see that you were willing to disparage with a label, but not willing to go beyond that.
Thank you for your honesty - it is refreshing. I appreciate it.
I believe on the surface they look the same - one's motivation and source determines whether it's doing something in the flesh ( and if you don't - you lose your salvation ) or by the life of Christ manifesting the love through and in us.
Believers in the grace of Christ and in His finished work say that we are saved by grace through faith and all obedience and good works are also by grace through faith in what Christ has done for us. But they are fruits of being saved - NOT the root of salvation
Paul said that he labored more then anyone else - yet not himself - but the grace of God within him.
1 Corinthians 15:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.
Ben mentioned Lordship Salvation. Here are its 9 teachings. What are the errors?
1) Repentance is not a simple synonym for faith. Scripture teaches that sinners must exercise faith in conjunction with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Peter 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47), and even this is a gift of God (2 Timothy 2:25). Genuine repentance, which comes when a person submits to the lordship of Christ, cannot help but result in a change of behavior (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18–20).
2) A Christian is a new creation and cannot just “stop believing” and lose salvation. Faith itself is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:1–5, 8), and real faith endures forever (Philippians 1:6). Salvation is all God’s work, not man’s. Those who believe in Christ as Lord are saved apart from any effort of their own (Titus 3:5).
3) The object of faith is Christ Himself, not a promise, a prayer, or a creed (John 3:16). Faith must involve a personal commitment to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:15). It is more than being convinced of the truth of the gospel; it is a forsaking of this world and a following of the Master. The Lord Jesus said, “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me” (John 10:27).
4) True faith always produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). The inner person is transformed by the Holy Spirit (Galatians 2:20), and the Christian has new nature (Romans 6:6). Those with genuine faith—those who are submitted to the lordship of Christ—follow Jesus (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God’s commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matthew 12:50), abide in God’s Word (John 8:31), keep God’s Word (John 17:6), do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21–23; Hebrews 3:14). Salvation is not adding Jesus to the pantheon of one’s idols; it is a wholesale destruction of the idols with Jesus reigning supreme.
5) God’s “divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life” (2 Peter 1:3; cf. Romans 8:32). Salvation, then, is not just a ticket to heaven. It is the means by which we are sanctified (practically) in this life and by which we grow in grace.
6) Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all. Christ demands unconditional surrender to His will (Romans 6:17–18; 10:9–10). Those who live in rebellion to God’s will do not have eternal life, for “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble” (James 4:6).
7) Those who truly believe in Christ will love Him (1 Peter 1:8–9; Romans 8:28–30; 1 Corinthians 16:22). And those we love we long to please (John 14:15, 23).
8) Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one’s faith is genuine (1 John 2:3). If a person remains unwilling to obey Christ, he provides evidence that his “faith” is in name only (1 John 2:4). A person may claim Jesus as Savior and pretend to obey for a while, but, if there is no heart change, his true nature will eventually manifest itself. This was the case for Judas Iscariot.
9) Genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Corinthians 1:8). This was the case for Simon Peter. A “believer” who completely turns away from the Lord plainly shows that he was never born again to begin with (1 John 2:19).
What is lordship salvation?
1) Repentance is not a simple synonym for faith. Scripture teaches that sinners must exercise faith in conjunction with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Peter 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47), and even this is a gift of God (2 Timothy 2:25). Genuine repentance, which comes when a person submits to the lordship of Christ, cannot help but result in a change of behavior (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18–20).
2) A Christian is a new creation and cannot just “stop believing” and lose salvation. Faith itself is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:1–5, 8), and real faith endures forever (Philippians 1:6). Salvation is all God’s work, not man’s. Those who believe in Christ as Lord are saved apart from any effort of their own (Titus 3:5).
3) The object of faith is Christ Himself, not a promise, a prayer, or a creed (John 3:16). Faith must involve a personal commitment to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:15). It is more than being convinced of the truth of the gospel; it is a forsaking of this world and a following of the Master. The Lord Jesus said, “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me” (John 10:27).
4) True faith always produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). The inner person is transformed by the Holy Spirit (Galatians 2:20), and the Christian has new nature (Romans 6:6). Those with genuine faith—those who are submitted to the lordship of Christ—follow Jesus (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God’s commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matthew 12:50), abide in God’s Word (John 8:31), keep God’s Word (John 17:6), do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21–23; Hebrews 3:14). Salvation is not adding Jesus to the pantheon of one’s idols; it is a wholesale destruction of the idols with Jesus reigning supreme.
5) God’s “divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life” (2 Peter 1:3; cf. Romans 8:32). Salvation, then, is not just a ticket to heaven. It is the means by which we are sanctified (practically) in this life and by which we grow in grace.
6) Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all. Christ demands unconditional surrender to His will (Romans 6:17–18; 10:9–10). Those who live in rebellion to God’s will do not have eternal life, for “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble” (James 4:6).
7) Those who truly believe in Christ will love Him (1 Peter 1:8–9; Romans 8:28–30; 1 Corinthians 16:22). And those we love we long to please (John 14:15, 23).
8) Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one’s faith is genuine (1 John 2:3). If a person remains unwilling to obey Christ, he provides evidence that his “faith” is in name only (1 John 2:4). A person may claim Jesus as Savior and pretend to obey for a while, but, if there is no heart change, his true nature will eventually manifest itself. This was the case for Judas Iscariot.
9) Genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Corinthians 1:8). This was the case for Simon Peter. A “believer” who completely turns away from the Lord plainly shows that he was never born again to begin with (1 John 2:19).
What is lordship salvation?
Where's brother Mitspa ... He's good with this stuff, and explaining with scripture how it' is so. Mr. Grace and Ben are doing well to though. And keeping love and care in the mix.. Love it
I agree which is why Paul had to constantly defend the gospel of grace because it is scandalous. In the book of Romans alone he had to stop 4x times and say 'Does this mean you can sin all you want?"..God forbid!
Make no mistake about it..the gospel of the grace of Christ is scandalous and is offensive to us that are "trying to earn our salvation by righteous works". Paul was continuously fighting the Judaizers coming in and perverting the gospel because they were afraid people might sin.
When we preach the true gospel of the grace of Christ and nobody says "What?..are you saying we can sin all we want?"..If no one says that...we have not preached the gospel that Paul did.
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Here is a thread devoted for Lordship salvation itself..so anyone interested can check that out. People can send us on numerous rabbit trails if you let it and end up having nothing accomplished. It will just end up in the same merry-go-round as usual and amount to confusion.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/125477-lordship-salvation.html
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/125477-lordship-salvation.html
Actually, the teachings of LS seem to line up with the subject of the OP quite well. Obedience to Jesus THE LORD.
K
keepitsimple
Guest
The error is the assumption that the believers in the gospel of God's grace given us in Christ don't strive to live an obedient life that is pleasing to God.