my last argument for obedience

[Brainfreeze]

I am pretty sure I know what you are saying... and I agree with you.

I was answering Grace's post, then telling him that if we go by what is SAID on both sides, there is a lot of agreement.

It seems the disagreement comes in the "why" of things. Jesus tells us to obey Him. Gog folks say that we are to obey, but that it has nothing to do with our justification.

Gog folks say we are saved through grace, and that we will "naturally" obey. non-gog folks say we are saved through grace, but that we are obligated to obey.

Differences in the "why"...

Good assessment.. Now how does one obey? Through correction... God will do the correcting, on His time, not ours. It could be a choice though, you could even say it's both working together, God correcting and our obeying.. How do you just let go of someone you knew your whole life and went through problems with or felt you had a bond with. Some won't .. Some will say I'm not letting go of that friend, and I'm still going to go out smoke some weed and tag a building with that friend.. Now does God say, no way... It's over, no He won't do that... But when the cops come around that corner, and your disciplined .. Then you might think, why did I even call him in the first place.. Know what I mean, or relate that with someone who wants to race on the streets with motor bikes... You keep hanging with them, your going to get a ticket.

 

[FreeNChrist]

The gospel was taight to John directly, He walked with Jesus from the start of His ministry. He was one of the three chosen closest disciples, He saw jesus transfigured on the mount, refered to himself as the beloved disciple...was the only disciple NIT martyred by rome. not because they didn't try mind you. Hes also the one who received the revelation of Jesus Christ.so id think Joihns testimony should at the very LEAST carry the weight of Pauls writings. to just onlt go with paul. is a mistake. hes not Jesus no greater than any other apostle. John, james and peter all walked with Jesus, peter walked on water with him, they slept and spoke with him. they knew far more than we do of His words. so id say yeah, james, john and peter would be pretty valid testimonies......its not that we separate paul from them, its that Jesus is first above all and all scripture is profitable. Jesus is the Lord, His words rule scripture. Hes the one who died, so Hes the one whos words have the weight when theres a seeming conflict. non of those apostles including paul would not take jesus words over thiers I am 200 percent confident on that. all their words are pointing to His as salvation, were christiansm Christ is who matters most

Is Jesus God?

 

[e_v_e]

Paul talks about the natural or carnal man. The carnal man is of this world, and wears the fallen mind and therefore cannot understand God's Word. He is the man who has not met the Lord and has not his new, inner being. His Souls must die to the natural man, and take up their cross. We have to die to this world. Paul helps us understand this.

1 Corinthians 2:6-16 About the natural man
2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Galatians 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[Brainfreeze]

Paul talks about the natural or carnal man. The carnal man is of this world, and wears the fallen mind and therefore cannot understand God's Word. He is the man who has not met the Lord and has not his new, inner being. His Souls must die to the natural man, and take up their cross. We have to die to this world. Paul helps us understand this.

1 Corinthians 2:6-16 About the natural man
2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Galatians 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Yes, dying to the old and being (born again) and walking in that.. We have to learn to walk in that. It's not always easy to just die to our old lives though.

 

[hornetguy]

Good assessment.. Now how does one obey? Through correction... God will do the correcting, on His time, not ours. It could be a choice though, you could even say it's both working together, God correcting and our obeying.. How do you just let go of someone you knew your whole life and went through problems with or felt you had a bond with. Some won't .. Some will say I'm not letting go of that friend, and I'm still going to go out smoke some weed and tag a building with that friend.. Now does God say, no way... It's over, no He won't do that... But when the cops come around that corner, and your disciplined .. Then you might think, why did I even call him in the first place.. Know what I mean, or relate that with someone who wants to race on the streets with motor bikes... You keep hanging with them, your going to get a ticket.

agreed.... obedience is not immediate and complete. It's walking daily in the light, doing your best with the help of the Spirit.

We will fall short/sin/mess up... whatever you want to call it. That does NOT make us "disobedient". Repent and move on, covered with the forgiveness of God's grace.

 

[jasonj]

I am pretty sure I know what you are saying... and I agree with you.

I was answering Grace's post, then telling him that if we go by what is SAID on both sides, there is a lot of agreement.

It seems the disagreement comes in the "why" of things. Jesus tells us to obey Him. Gog folks say that we are to obey, but that it has nothing to do with our justification.

Gog folks say we are saved through grace, and that we will "naturally" obey. non-gog folks say we are saved through grace, but that we are obligated to obey.

Differences in the "why"...

yep and my thing is Jesus is the Lord. Jesus is the one who died. He is the one anointed as King. so His words can never be disregarded because of a new age belief. my issue is that Jesus does infact teach we are obligated. like forgiveness. when he says if you do not forgive others, I will not forgive you.....that statement has to somehow be mis interpreted by me, when its straight forward in their own bibles. I probly seem aggressive idk really. the only thing in this world that makes me stand strong and not be moved is Jesus words. I truly believe, that any doctrine that doesn't agree with the gospel of Jesus Christ, is not the gospel.

I love and truly appreciate pauls writings, so eloquent and well written. a treasure. but not the source of a gospel. Jesus is the gospel, pauls ministry was Just telling us the power of the atonement. we died to sin, and are alive to God. but when were alive to God, were not free of any obligation. what we do still has a great bearing on where we end up. the gog has no responsibility because were already forgiven no matter what. I do not acceot it, only because that's not what Jesus clearly teaches, regardless of my interpretation. not just the "why" more to me is the WHO.... does that make sense bro?

 

[Brainfreeze]

yep and my thing is Jesus is the Lord. Jesus is the one who died. He is the one anointed as King. so His words can never be disregarded because of a new age belief. my issue is that Jesus does infact teach we are obligated. like forgiveness. when he says if you do not forgive others, I will not forgive you.....that statement has to somehow be mis interpreted by me, when its straight forward in their own bibles. I probly seem aggressive idk really. the only thing in this world that makes me stand strong and not be moved is Jesus words. I truly believe, that any doctrine that doesn't agree with the gospel of Jesus Christ, is not the gospel.

I love and truly appreciate pauls writings, so eloquent and well written. a treasure. but not the source of a gospel. Jesus is the gospel, pauls ministry was Just telling us the power of the atonement. we died to sin, and are alive to God. but when were alive to God, were not free of any obligation. what we do still has a great bearing on where we end up. the gog has no responsibility because were already forgiven no matter what. I do not acceot it, only because that's not what Jesus clearly teaches, regardless of my interpretation. not just the "why" more to me is the WHO.... does that make sense bro?

Bam, we all agree! This is if you mean in the flesh world, and not a salvation one. the gospel and Paul are in complete agreement, we aren't so much, but that's ok brother Jason, we are growing in Christ together.

 

[e_v_e]

Modern words for dying to the natural man would be to describe it as dying to the ego, the modern "I" and all its needs and wants and ending the way it is "plugged in" to this world....and wears this world's mind. Nothing of the fallen world is His. I understand myself how hard it is because when I've been working, I worked in technology and then in academia...and it's very hard to switch from this world (and its progress, and tech, and the rest) and instead rest in her the core soul and wait for Him and talk to Him. This is an information world in which the ego or I views everything revolving around it and where souls live in their thoughts and earthly goals and desires and neglect His reality. This world is very insistent and mezmerizing, like hypnotic trance is what it gives.

There are infinite tricky devious aspects of the ego in a person....

 

[hornetguy]

yep and my thing is Jesus is the Lord. Jesus is the one who died. He is the one anointed as King. so His words can never be disregarded because of a new age belief. my issue is that Jesus does infact teach we are obligated. like forgiveness. when he says if you do not forgive others, I will not forgive you.....that statement has to somehow be mis interpreted by me, when its straight forward in their own bibles. I probly seem aggressive idk really. the only thing in this world that makes me stand strong and not be moved is Jesus words. I truly believe, that any doctrine that doesn't agree with the gospel of Jesus Christ, is not the gospel.

I love and truly appreciate pauls writings, so eloquent and well written. a treasure. but not the source of a gospel. Jesus is the gospel, pauls ministry was Just telling us the power of the atonement. we died to sin, and are alive to God. but when were alive to God, were not free of any obligation. what we do still has a great bearing on where we end up. the gog has no responsibility because were already forgiven no matter what. I do not acceot it, only because that's not what Jesus clearly teaches, regardless of my interpretation. not just the "why" more to me is the WHO.... does that make sense bro?

Yep... makes sense to me. Jesus said it.... I believe it.

 

[e_v_e]

Yes, dying to the old and being (born again) and walking in that.. We have to learn to walk in that. It's not always easy to just die to our old lives though.

True. This fallen sphere is made for it to be nearly impossible...to die to it.

 

[Brainfreeze]

agreed.... obedience is not immediate and complete. It's walking daily in the light, doing your best with the help of the Spirit.

We will fall short/sin/mess up... whatever you want to call it. That does NOT make us "disobedient". Repent and move on, covered with the forgiveness of God's grace.

Exactly ...100% agreed, now what's wrong with this Jason.

 

[hornetguy]

Modern words for dying to the natural man would be to describe it as dying to the ego, the modern "I" and all its needs and wants and ending the way it is "plugged in" to this world....and wears this world's mind. Nothing of the fallen world is His. I understand myself how hard it is because when I've been working, I worked in technology and then in academia...and it's very hard to switch from this world (and its progress, and tech, and the rest) and instead rest in her the core soul and wait for Him and talk to Him. This is an information world in which the ego or I views everything revolving around it and where souls live in their thoughts and earthly goals and desires and neglect His reality. This world is very insistent and mezmerizing, like hypnotic trance is what it gives.

There are infinite tricky devious aspects of the ego in a person....

I think that's partly why Jesus told us to have minds like children...

 

[Brainfreeze]

True. This fallen sphere is made for it to be nearly impossible...to die to it.

So true Sis!

 

[hornetguy]

Got to get to bed.... blessings to all... God is good...

 

[JustWhoIAm]

True. This fallen sphere is made for it to be nearly impossible...to die to it.

Yes. But it's a good thing for us that someone else is the author and finisher of our faith.

He's the potter.

Who is absolutely perfect? Myself, i'm on here debating and hanging out partially because it fulfills a need in me to have something to do that involves godliness. Is that selfish? Yes, in a way. But so is eating or sleeping. People do stuff to fill time. It's selfish in that it fulfills a natural desire in the self and people chase after that.

We're not going to be rid of that until later, one way or the other.

 

[jasonj]

Is Jesus God?

Jesus is the ec=xact representation of God. Jesus said plainly. I speak only the words of the Father. so more importantly, Jesus spoke Gods direct word. and also " God gave Him all authority in heaven and on earth" so yeah, Hes the only one delivered By God to be the Lord and master and King and everyuthing else to us. that's why I stick to His words. don't misunderstand me obedience to Christ is different than Law.

to obey Christs teachings we forgive and we are forgiven because of what has been done, but still he says forgive or I woll not forgive you.....everything he teaches is along those lines there is absolutely conditions after we are saved by His preciouis blood. you know the =bible says " you are not your own, you were bought at a price"...that price was paid in full. it was the suffering, the shame, the torture, beating, mocking, scourging, humiliation sopitting on and finally the nails driven through the bones in his wrists and feet. you see grace? its offered to us at that price. we here a free gift and it diminishes the price.

If we truly hold the price he paid, obligation to Him is the only way. were not perfect ive never vclaimed that, never will. I claim to be nothing, invisable. I have no family, not many close friends, have chosen to be single according to scripture ect......im nothing special at all never think or would say that. my only claim, is that I follow the only one worthy of My Life why do I see Him that way?........ive already explained here.if not for Jesus grace to me, id be eternally seprated from God. where there is no light, no good or worthy thought.....nothing. but because of His pain and suffering. I have an eternal Hope, a life awaits, something far better than the world " no eyue has seen no ear has heard and no mind conceived what God has prepared for those who Love Him." if were obeying Jesus we don't have to be perfect we just hace to learn His ways. if we show noi mercy, we have none coming. that's how obedience to Jesus works its not strict because of the things he teaches. its a perfect Law, with mercy and Justice, peace and Love all in one. that's why I want you guys to learn it, its wonderful and makes so much sense whren we Just believe Jesus and forget the doctrines that are different. I don't dislike or have a single hard feeling towards anyo f you guys, just cant stand doctrines that delet or make less important what Jesus said, because...of what I said here

 

[FreeNChrist]

Jesus is the ec=xact representation of God. Jesus said plainly. I speak only the words of the Father. so more importantly, Jesus spoke Gods direct word. and also " God gave Him all authority in heaven and on earth" so yeah, Hes the only one delivered By God to be the Lord and master and King and everyuthing else to us. that's why I stick to His words. don't misunderstand me obedience to Christ is different than Law.

to obey Christs teachings we forgive and we are forgiven because of what has been done, but still he says forgive or I woll not forgive you.....everything he teaches is along those lines there is absolutely conditions after we are saved by His preciouis blood. you know the =bible says " you are not your own, you were bought at a price"...that price was paid in full. it was the suffering, the shame, the torture, beating, mocking, scourging, humiliation sopitting on and finally the nails driven through the bones in his wrists and feet. you see grace? its offered to us at that price. we here a free gift and it diminishes the price.

If we truly hold the price he paid, obligation to Him is the only way. were not perfect ive never vclaimed that, never will. I claim to be nothing, invisable. I have no family, not many close friends, have chosen to be single according to scripture ect......im nothing special at all never think or would say that. my only claim, is that I follow the only one worthy of My Life why do I see Him that way?........ive already explained here.if not for Jesus grace to me, id be eternally seprated from God. where there is no light, no good or worthy thought.....nothing. but because of His pain and suffering. I have an eternal Hope, a life awaits, something far better than the world " no eyue has seen no ear has heard and no mind conceived what God has prepared for those who Love Him." if were obeying Jesus we don't have to be perfect we just hace to learn His ways. if we show noi mercy, we have none coming. that's how obedience to Jesus works its not strict because of the things he teaches. its a perfect Law, with mercy and Justice, peace and Love all in one. that's why I want you guys to learn it, its wonderful and makes so much sense whren we Just believe Jesus and forget the doctrines that are different. I don't dislike or have a single hard feeling towards anyo f you guys, just cant stand doctrines that delet or make less important what Jesus said, because...of what I said here

Is Jesus God?

 

[e_v_e]

I think that's partly why Jesus told us to have minds like children...

I find that the more I die the less I care for this world. It was hard...I had to go into starvation. Literally. To deny myself things I liked of this world. But little by little...I found that I don't even miss those things or want them. It's lovely to have the time with Him instead.

 

[BenFTW]

Jesus is the ec=xact representation of God. Jesus said plainly. I speak only the words of the Father. so more importantly, Jesus spoke Gods direct word. and also " God gave Him all authority in heaven and on earth" so yeah, Hes the only one delivered By God to be the Lord and master and King and everyuthing else to us. that's why I stick to His words. don't misunderstand me obedience to Christ is different than Law.

to obey Christs teachings we forgive and we are forgiven because of what has been done, but still he says forgive or I woll not forgive you.....everything he teaches is along those lines there is absolutely conditions after we are saved by His preciouis blood. you know the =bible says " you are not your own, you were bought at a price"...that price was paid in full. it was the suffering, the shame, the torture, beating, mocking, scourging, humiliation sopitting on and finally the nails driven through the bones in his wrists and feet. you see grace? its offered to us at that price. we here a free gift and it diminishes the price.

If we truly hold the price he paid, obligation to Him is the only way. were not perfect ive never vclaimed that, never will. I claim to be nothing, invisable. I have no family, not many close friends, have chosen to be single according to scripture ect......im nothing special at all never think or would say that. my only claim, is that I follow the only one worthy of My Life why do I see Him that way?........ive already explained here.if not for Jesus grace to me, id be eternally seprated from God. where there is no light, no good or worthy thought.....nothing. but because of His pain and suffering. I have an eternal Hope, a life awaits, something far better than the world " no eyue has seen no ear has heard and no mind conceived what God has prepared for those who Love Him." if were obeying Jesus we don't have to be perfect we just hace to learn His ways. if we show noi mercy, we have none coming. that's how obedience to Jesus works its not strict because of the things he teaches. its a perfect Law, with mercy and Justice, peace and Love all in one. that's why I want you guys to learn it, its wonderful and makes so much sense whren we Just believe Jesus and forget the doctrines that are different. I don't dislike or have a single hard feeling towards anyo f you guys, just cant stand doctrines that delet or make less important what Jesus said, because...of what I said here

So is that a yes? Jesus is God, Himself? Jesus is divine? Jesus had a preincarnate self? Jesus is your God?

 

[e_v_e]

Yes. But it's a good thing for us that someone else is the author and finisher of our faith.

He's the potter.

Who is absolutely perfect? Myself, i'm on here debating and hanging out partially because it fulfills a need in me to have something to do that involves godliness. Is that selfish? Yes, in a way. But so is eating or sleeping. People do stuff to fill time. It's selfish in that it fulfills a natural desire in the self and people chase after that.

We're not going to be rid of that until later, one way or the other.

We need to distract ourselves a little...because the soul hurts from the way things are in this world....the suffering in it and death and pain...which was not how He wanted it or made it originally for Adam and Eve.

But I'd say there is a different between managing and whole hog following the natural man, and natural desires, yes...that some chase after.