Do you believe in Cessationism or Continuationism? (poll)

[Depleted]

Ah. Once again -- same problem, different day. A lot of stuff people were wondering and assuming about was already answered somewhere along the way in this thread, and yet, the reality isn't so much a problem of wondering, but a problem of trying to get your point across way above anyone else's point. The true assumption keeps being "only I understand all this, so be still while I learn you, because I'm not wasting my time reading what you said." Add that trait to several people, and viola! All you get is disconnected noncommunication.

That's not "benefit of a doubt." That's arrogance.

 

[Depleted]

Ben, Nice try. Some of us did learn what others think. Unfortunately "the educators" make it loud without ever noticing they weren't gifted in teaching.

 

[noeleena]

Hi,

The Lord will use what we have here on this earth to show the love that is needed , to speak wisdom, to heal, to cover , to be with, to see the path that goes before us , to speak through us by the Spirit , to save from death ,

to use the body to be healed with in our own organs , to have a simple faith and to have with in you the Spirit that is in unison with The Lord ,

Have you NOT been lead by the Spirit and gone into places where you are protected and have no fear into the the house of the accuser , many will scoff at that. and say don't tempt the Lord ,

you do not walk in THE WAYS of The LORD . oh ye of no faith you lack wisdom and you are scattered as husks of wheat . by the wind .

...noeleena...

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you do not know what that verse actually means.

The disciples and apostles were for the most part very simple men. Paul was the exception having an extensive education provided by the Jews and Romans.

The knowledge they possessed was far in excess of their educational capacity. They refuted the religious doctors of the day having never gone their schools.

Knowledge today is quite different in that most people are educated and can study Gods word. The Holy Spirit still gives insight into the word of God but it comes through study not gifting as some would have us to believe.

There is no new revelation. Gods word the that which is perfect is complete. Perfect means complete in the context of the verse. There are many others here who maliciously perpetuate the misinterpretation of the verse to continue in their private interpretation of this scripture so as not to interfere with the predetermined doctrine they wish to follow.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I understand what 1 Cor. 13:8 means . . . If we look at context - (v1) it's operating the gift of holy Spirit - the manifestations of the Spirit without love . . . . (v2) prophesy is a manifestation of the Spirit for the profit of edifying the body of believers, tongues is a manifestation of the Spirit for the profit of edifying oneself or to edify the body of believers, so in that context - knowledge would also be one of the manifestations of the Spirit and it would be "word of knowledge". It is exactly how Paul received most of the church epistles - by revelation - revealed information from Jesus Christ.

When I speak of revelation - it is God revealing to us by word of knowledge and/or word of wisdom things we may need to know in a given situation that we are in. God is a personal God and speaks to us individually. Now, if we believe that the manifestation of tongues have ceased, manifestation of prophecy has failed, then it stands to logic that in the same verse - knowledge has vanished away would be the manifestation of word of knowledge - That knowledge comes to us by revelation through word of knowledge and/or word of wisdom.

Some erroneously private interpret the scripture to mean that we see the "complete scripture" face to face . . . . My scripture does not have a "face" unless I want to MAKE it fit my interpretation and say - "well the "face" is the "face of a page" . . ."

 

[keepitsimple]

Ben, Nice try. Some of us did learn what others think. Unfortunately "the educators" make it loud without ever noticing they weren't gifted in teaching.

Lynn ... I did learn what others think. And I was polite in my differing viewpoint of understanding. What more is required of me than that ? Neutrality is not unity. It simply ignores what it lacks conviction of. And disagreeing with something does not preclude arrogance. If speaking what we honestly feel and understand while disagreeing makes one arrogant, what is left to say ? Are you also open to new apostles today for the sake of unity and peace Lynn ? Should you be considered arrogant if you said you are not ? These issues do divide believers whether we want to admit it or not. That's why I said let's just leave it at that. It's too tiring and far too heavy a drain on ones soul. I am no ones teacher ... nor judge. I have enough on my hands with my own self-examination.

 

[notuptome]

I understand what 1 Cor. 13:8 means . . . If we look at context - (v1) it's operating the gift of holy Spirit - the manifestations of the Spirit without love . . . . (v2) prophesy is a manifestation of the Spirit for the profit of edifying the body of believers, tongues is a manifestation of the Spirit for the profit of edifying oneself or to edify the body of believers, so in that context - knowledge would also be one of the manifestations of the Spirit and it would be "word of knowledge". It is exactly how Paul received most of the church epistles - by revelation - revealed information from Jesus Christ.

When I speak of revelation - it is God revealing to us by word of knowledge and/or word of wisdom things we may need to know in a given situation that we are in. God is a personal God and speaks to us individually. Now, if we believe that the manifestation of tongues have ceased, manifestation of prophecy has failed, then it stands to logic that in the same verse - knowledge has vanished away would be the manifestation of word of knowledge - That knowledge comes to us by revelation through word of knowledge and/or word of wisdom.

Some erroneously private interpret the scripture to mean that we see the "complete scripture" face to face . . . . My scripture does not have a "face" unless I want to MAKE it fit my interpretation and say - "well the "face" is the "face of a page" . . ."

Really? Your scripture should have a face because it does have a face. The face is that of the Risen Savior. When you face Him your outlook on religion changes.

You speak in obtuse terms of religion but neglect the realities of Christ.

1 John 1:1 ¶ That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickyZ]

I don't see the relevance nor the biblical instruction for any of us to act on God's behalf in this manner. Jesus didn't.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

 

[keepitsimple]

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

There is no greater work than to spread the gospel of salvation. Perhaps Jesus was referring to believers reaching out to all of the lost souls worldwide ? If you are of the mindset to believe it to be Jesus' many performed miracles during His life on earth, I'd require you to explain to me what greater work anyone could do than to raise a dead body ? Jesus' work was to bring us lost sinners into his kingdom Ricky. I won't be around here much longer. I just wanted to address a couple of topics before taking my leave. God bless and may He keep all of you in Christ's love.

 

[valiant]

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

these words were spoken to Christ's unique apostles

 

[BenFTW]

I can't help but wonder why so many are sick and suffering today, given that if what you say is true, that being that we can all do these things if we are willing, then why wouldn't we ? Jesus healed as many as had come to Him. He gave the apostles the same authority as His own to do likewise with the House of Israel when He had sent them out to preach the gospel. This God-given authority left no room for doubt as to who Jesus was and is to all the Jews to whom the gospel was preached. The words of Jesus were proved by His miraculous power and authority ... "that you may know that the Son of God has authority to forgive sins etc. ... I say to thee, take up thy mat and walk". I also wonder why we have zero scriptural reference to any healings being performed by God's chosen vessels while speaking in tongues ? I'm simply being honest and straight-forward with you Ben. I don't see the relevance nor the biblical instruction for any of us to act on God's behalf in this manner. Jesus didn't. Neither do I see where the apostles did either .. and if they had, don't you think that we would have been told and instructed in this manner ? In any event, I am not seeking to debate. Just pointing out what I see and understand in God's written Word. More and more lately, I am starting to think that there is too great a divide amongst believers on this issue for there to be any true harmony between these two camps. And for this reason, I think it best to simply leave things at that. Thank you for replying.

VVell thats easy, haha. Belief or the lack thereof.

 

[RickyZ]

these words were spoken to Christ's unique apostles

So then, you've scratch this verse out of the Bible because it doesn't apply to you?

How sad, so very very sad.

 

[RickyZ]

There is no greater work than to spread the gospel of salvation. Perhaps Jesus was referring to believers reaching out to all of the lost souls worldwide ? If you are of the mindset to believe it to be Jesus' many performed miracles during His life on earth, I'd require you to explain to me what greater work anyone could do than to raise a dead body ? Jesus' work was to bring us lost sinners into his kingdom Ricky. I won't be around here much longer. I just wanted to address a couple of topics before taking my leave. God bless and may He keep all of you in Christ's love.

How did Jesus reach out to unbelievers and perform the work of spreading the gospel? (And was there actually a gospel prior to His death and resurrection?) By showing mankind that as the Messiah, the one chosen to set right all that was lost in man's fall, He has the power and authority to over rule all that was lost in the fall... including our health and mortality.

I'm sorry you don't feel that Christ in you can do the same things He did before you.

 

[BenFTW]

Maybe I should have stated that differently. I mean what do you think the correlation is?

I have written a couple responses but none of them felt right. So I am going to go with, "I don't know." haha All I could do is speculate but I don't wish to insult anyone in my speculation.

 

[keepitsimple]

How did Jesus reach out to unbelievers and perform the work of spreading the gospel? (And was there actually a gospel prior to His death and resurrection?) By showing mankind that as the Messiah, the one chosen to set right all that was lost in man's fall, He has the power and authority to over rule all that was lost in the fall... including our health and mortality.

I'm sorry you don't feel that Christ in you can do the same things He did before you.

How did Jesus reach out to unbelievers and perform the work of spreading the gospel?

He taught in their synagogues and on the shores of the sea and in their towns as One who had authority ... and backed up His Words by performing miracles. Is this what we should be doing today as well Ricky ... performing miracles to show that Christ is in us ? Is this how you spread the gospel that saves us by grace thru faith ... by doing what Jesus and the apostles did ? Is a martyr's death ours as well, as it was 11 of the 12 ? We are not the apostles. And we are not prophets. We are followers and believers in Jesus Christ by God's grace thru faith in Him. Tell me Ricky ? Do you and others here have a family doctor ... and if so, why ? Do you take medication for a bad headache ? Why ? Do those with faith enough to heal and used of God visit hospitals to heal the sick ? Why not ? What's everybody waiting for ? People are dying without Christ daily. Wouldn't they believe if they were healed by one given God's gift of healing ? Jesus backed up His Words because He could. He is God. And if He desires to heal us, He surely will. But believing in modern day tongues or new revelations given thru modern day apostles and prophets has never been a prerequisite for God's divine intervention in our lives. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Faith is not trying to convince ourselves that we can do all things that Jesus did. Sufficient for us is that the prayers of a righteous man availeth much. Incidentally, a physical death still remains as a result of man's fall because the very wages of our sin is death. But thanks be to God in Jesus Christ, our souls will yet live eternally in His glory.

 

[RobbyEarl]

1 Corinthians 12

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets?Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31But earnestly desire the best[d] gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

The perfect has not come yet if you think this world is perfect then think again these gifts and miracles will not cease until Jesus (the perfect) comes.

 

[RickyZ]

How did Jesus reach out to unbelievers and perform the work of spreading the gospel?

He taught in their synagogues and on the shores of the sea and in their towns as One who had authority ... and backed up His Words by performing miracles. Is this what we should be doing today as well Ricky ... performing miracles to show that Christ is in us ? Is this how you spread the gospel that saves us by grace thru faith ... by doing what Jesus and the apostles did ?

http://christianchat.com/blogs/rickyz/4349-beach-incident.html

 

[keepitsimple]

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Robby ... the last thing I desire is to create a stumbling block for you. But consider the following. If, as you believe, that prophecies, tongues and knowledge remain with faith, hope and love until Christ's return, how is it that faith, which is the evidence of things not seen and hope, which will be fully met and satisfied when we see Christ face to face ... how is it that these two (faith and hope) remain with love when Christ's face is seen by us and our hope in Him has been fulfilled ? When we see Christ face to face, both faith and hope become unnecessary attributes. What we see requires no faith ... or hope. Both will have been fully satisfied. Verse 10 refers to that which is perfect (not Him Who is perfect) ... in the context of completeness or completion ... as in God's written Word to us ...i.e ... the bible. Furthermore, Jesus had already been here before this writing. Yes, He's coming again and yes, He is perfect. But He certainly wasn't "in part" the first time He came to save us. One has to choose to believe that the second half of verse 10 speaks of something entirely different than the first half of the very same verse. And all who believe that verse 10 refers to Jesus do adhere to this rationale. They have to.

 

[keepitsimple]

http://christianchat.com/blogs/rickyz/4349-beach-incident.html

It may surprise to learn that I do believe that God does answer our prayers and on occasion, this does involve the miraculous ... His divine intervention

 

[Angela53510]

As for the miracles bit, all those things... miracles, signs and wonders they are to draw people to God, to Jesus. It reveals the heart of God when a person is healed.

The problem that I have seen over and over with the charismatic/pentecostal and Word Faith movements, is that too many people are drawn to the miracles, the signs and wonders, instead of being drawn to Jesus. Too many have this fascination with the "miraculous" instead of the miracle working God. I have just seen this over and over. It is a sign of spiritual immaturity, for sure, but if the emphasis is on gifts and signs and wonders, then people forget to look to God, to worship him and to get to know him better.

Let's face it, even in the Bible many were attracted to the signs and wonders, but not to Christ. In fact, the twelve disciples did not see any amazing miracles, Jesus just called them to come, and they came.

We all need to work on listening to God, and certainly to studying his Word, where we will learn how to be disciples, which no miracle in the world could teach us. And to come and obey and especially take up our cross daily and follow him!

 

[Depleted]

Lynn ... I did learn what others think. And I was polite in my differing viewpoint of understanding. What more is required of me than that ? Neutrality is not unity. It simply ignores what it lacks conviction of. And disagreeing with something does not preclude arrogance. If speaking what we honestly feel and understand while disagreeing makes one arrogant, what is left to say ? Are you also open to new apostles today for the sake of unity and peace Lynn ? Should you be considered arrogant if you said you are not ? These issues do divide believers whether we want to admit it or not. That's why I said let's just leave it at that. It's too tiring and far too heavy a drain on ones soul. I am no ones teacher ... nor judge. I have enough on my hands with my own self-examination.

I did say some. If I thought I was the only one learning, I would have said that.

As for people thinking there are apostles today? There are people who think that. I disagree, but that doesn't give me room to use the line that my benefit of a doubt is the person knows nothing. That's not benefit of a doubt. That IS arrogance.