Is the Devil bound right now...?
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that's a good point, there seems to be lots of deception going on in the nations (or "gentiles")
Brothers,
FINALLY, you have returned to the true context of the 1000yr binding.
First think of this, there are 2 "bindings".
1. The binding of Satan to be thrown down after the war in heaven, Rev 12:1-17. (my opinion is Pentecost, when the kingdom of the Gift of the Holy Spirit began, Christ's kingdom on earth, salvation Rev 12:10, rules the kingdom on earth for 1000 yrs).
2 The binding of the dragon for the 1000 yrs, Rev 20. (I believe symbolic)
What is it, that the dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns does when he is released? (identified in Rev 12:3, Rome)
He deceives the nations the "NATIONS MAGOG". (Kings of the east, Iran, present)
He surrounds restored Israel in Jerusalem.
FINALLY, you have returned to the true context of the 1000yr binding.
First think of this, there are 2 "bindings".
1. The binding of Satan to be thrown down after the war in heaven, Rev 12:1-17. (my opinion is Pentecost, when the kingdom of the Gift of the Holy Spirit began, Christ's kingdom on earth, salvation Rev 12:10, rules the kingdom on earth for 1000 yrs).
2 The binding of the dragon for the 1000 yrs, Rev 20. (I believe symbolic)
What is it, that the dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns does when he is released? (identified in Rev 12:3, Rome)
He deceives the nations the "NATIONS MAGOG". (Kings of the east, Iran, present)
He surrounds restored Israel in Jerusalem.
John,
Again, if you are going to claim that prophecy has been fulfilled, then you have to be able to show the fulfillment of it. When the war in heaven takes place, Satan and his angels will literally be thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth. But, before that can take place, the 5th and 6th trumpet have to take place first, as they are in sequential order. And since we have no eyewitnesses nor a historical record of demonic beings being let out of the Abyss and stinging people like scorpions and unless you have a third of the immediate population killed by an army of 200 million, you have no fulfillment of the 7th trumpet and that because trumpets 5 & 6 have to come first.
Also, the binding of the dragon/Satan is most definitely literal and not symbolic as you claim. For there is nothing in the scripture that would suggest that the binding is anything but literal. Take heed about the warning that is written at the end of the book of this prophecy:
"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll."
Honestly, you have been butchering the information contained in this book!
I believe that two separate 'casting' events are in view here, rather than two binding events.
Brother Ahwatukee,
According to 1 Cor 15:23-28,
There is a first resurrection, Jesus
A second resurrection, at His coming
Then He delivers the kingdom to the Father.
If you want to say that this is a symbolic passage of many resurrections, that is up to you.
But in understanding Rev 20, and the thousand year reign, the two resurrections are quite clear.
The first, when Jesus rose, Rev 20:4-6
And the second, at His coming, Rev 20:7-9
Those who live and reign, are from the first resurrection, John the Baptist, 144000, Mwnmc#, etc.
The dragon is described as having 7 heads and 10 horns, Rev 12:3, see how in Rev 12 that the dragon sends out a "flood of people" after the woman, Israel. The earth helps her. This is the limit (chain of the dragon) of Rome's power in chasing after the woman during the times of the gentiles (great tribulation).
Rome comes out of the pit. 5th trumpet, 5th vial, end of 1000 yrs. (restored sea-earth beast, 1929)
Rome is back as a nation, isn't that "proof" enough?
Israel is restored to Jerusalem, isn't that proof enough?
The people of the Euphrates are dried up, isn't that proof enough?
The Kings of the East and their allies are ready to destroy Israel, isn't that proof enough.
The signs are all here, right now!
Will the Dragon have a literal "chain" to hold this spirit being?
If the bottomless pit opens here on earth, how can it not have a bottom?
You want to say this is supposed to be understood literally,
1 Cor 2:14, "the things of the Spirit of God......they are spiritually discerned."
Brother John
According to 1 Cor 15:23-28,
There is a first resurrection, Jesus
A second resurrection, at His coming
Then He delivers the kingdom to the Father.
If you want to say that this is a symbolic passage of many resurrections, that is up to you.
But in understanding Rev 20, and the thousand year reign, the two resurrections are quite clear.
The first, when Jesus rose, Rev 20:4-6
And the second, at His coming, Rev 20:7-9
Those who live and reign, are from the first resurrection, John the Baptist, 144000, Mwnmc#, etc.
The dragon is described as having 7 heads and 10 horns, Rev 12:3, see how in Rev 12 that the dragon sends out a "flood of people" after the woman, Israel. The earth helps her. This is the limit (chain of the dragon) of Rome's power in chasing after the woman during the times of the gentiles (great tribulation).
Rome comes out of the pit. 5th trumpet, 5th vial, end of 1000 yrs. (restored sea-earth beast, 1929)
Rome is back as a nation, isn't that "proof" enough?
Israel is restored to Jerusalem, isn't that proof enough?
The people of the Euphrates are dried up, isn't that proof enough?
The Kings of the East and their allies are ready to destroy Israel, isn't that proof enough.
The signs are all here, right now!
Will the Dragon have a literal "chain" to hold this spirit being?
If the bottomless pit opens here on earth, how can it not have a bottom?
You want to say this is supposed to be understood literally,
1 Cor 2:14, "the things of the Spirit of God......they are spiritually discerned."
Brother John
That seems to be what the scriptures indicate. Is there a need for another outward demonstration of the pouring out His Spirit?
Many date setters in different denominations. (not supporting JW’s)
I think the Spirit of Christ, the one anointing Holy Spirit of God invisibly came and worked in the heart of men possibly beginning with Abel in who he had mercy and grace on.
Jesus in respect to the working of the Spirit of Christ performed that as a way of preaching the gospel in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand. Old Testament saints like the new are purified by the same mutual faith that came from hearing God (God’s faith) He puts no difference between an outward Jew and a gentile.
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. . Act 15:7
There are those who say the first century reformation has not occurred and therefore nothing was restored. That can take away the understanding in Romans that says; "if any man has not the Spirit of Christ they do not belong to Christ".
Receiving the "end of your faith", even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1Pe 1:9
According to my understanding first and foremost the flesh of Christ did not profit or should we look for it to ever profit. God remains without form. We continue to walk by His faith, the unseen understanding, not by sight according to the spirit of error after the god of this world ..
The last days represents this side of the first century reformation. This is the whole New Testament era leading towards the last day, the second resurrection, the end of this world system, and the god of it..
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of “my Spirit” upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
It would seem that some turn that upside down and make the flesh the real presence. The reason for the fall in the beginning. Can’t serve two masters in that way. We worship God in Spirit according to His spiritual words, called faith to faith.
The one time outward demonstration of the invisible promised work of pouring out His eternal Spirit life on a corrupted creation (sinful flesh) is over.
Our supernatural (no nature as a genesis, beginning ) God remains without mother or father as a beginning of days and therefore no end of Spirit life. The flesh profited for nothing.
Trying to give God a nature in respect to flesh and blood which could never enter the kingdom of God from my perspective is where many error. God does not accept worship in respect to that seen .It’s His nemesis.
God I believe, considers us who have passed from eternal damnation to eternal life new creatures. Again the one time demonstration is over. When He comes again on the last day he is bringing our new incorruptible bodies .
Twice in the section of scripture to embellish his truth he uses the word “henceforth” to indicate eternally .
Wherefore “henceforth” know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we "have known" Christ after the flesh, yet now “henceforth”know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2Co 5:16
When the Spirit of Christ, as the same anointing Holy Spirit of God comes on the last day. This is when the time keepers (sun and moon) will be removed from the heavens and earth, then we who are reigning with Christ on earth as ambassadors, sent as apostles from a foreign land (our citizenship as to our birth right is not from here) and those who have fallen asleep in Christ(the first resurrection), not reigning with Christ here........ together both in the twinkling of the eye be given our new incorruptible bodies.
The former things pertaining to here will not be remembered or ever come to mind.
Hi John,
The proof is in the pudding, as they say. These resurrections and those changed and caught up do not take place at the same time.
Christ the first fruits:
1). For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The Church at His appearing:
2).For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
The Male Chile/144,000:
"She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[SUP]a[/SUP] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne."
The Two Witnesses:
"But after the three and a half days the breath[SUP]b[/SUP] of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on"
The Great Tribulation Saints:
"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[SUP]a[/SUP] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Christ put the first resurrection in motion and it is still in operation. The next phase of the first resurrection will be the gathering of the church both dead and living. After that, the Male Child/144,000, and around the same time the two witnesses will be killed and resurrected and finally the great tribulation saints will be resurrected. So as you can see, it is not Just Jesus and the church.
The proof is in the pudding, as they say. These resurrections and those changed and caught up do not take place at the same time.
Christ the first fruits:
1). For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The Church at His appearing:
2).For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
The Male Chile/144,000:
"She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[SUP]a[/SUP] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne."
The Two Witnesses:
"But after the three and a half days the breath[SUP]b[/SUP] of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on"
The Great Tribulation Saints:
"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[SUP]a[/SUP] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Christ put the first resurrection in motion and it is still in operation. The next phase of the first resurrection will be the gathering of the church both dead and living. After that, the Male Child/144,000, and around the same time the two witnesses will be killed and resurrected and finally the great tribulation saints will be resurrected. So as you can see, it is not Just Jesus and the church.
Not a salvation issue but perhaps interesting to some
When looking at that parable in Revelation 20. We know that literal chains cannot bind a lying spirit, that a lying spirit can blind the mind of those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living, abiding in them..
That brings to question; what is the spiritual meaning of everlasting chains in respect a dark hidden understanding, seeing chains must be a metaphor, as used in parables.
Do we simply ignore what I call the key to the spiritual understandings of any parable seeing he hides the spiritual from some while giving it to His children? Should we be careful to not make everything a metaphor? Yes. But ignore the possibility of a spiritual hidden understanding, No.
I would suggest asking oneself the question in respect to the loosening and binding law that can get turned upside down. What is it they are bound from not doing?
The fall occurred when Christ said; it is finished . Other than being bound from appearing with the other angels that were be led by the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God, what could they be bound from not doing?
When looking at Jude as to "everlasting chains" under darkness, it I believe simply means they have no spiritual understanding. As far as salvation they are not subject to salvation to begin with. There is nothing to say the father of lies will not go on to the last day judgement day accusing the brethren day and night before God. (We can see that seeing he uses the Exodus account as us receiving salvation, our eternal rest in Christ.)
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jud 1:5
The tribulation we are in began at the time of the first century reformation. This is when the outward Jew was no longer needed to be used as shadows and types. That reformation turned the whole world upside down, but did not stop Satan who deceives the whole world right to the end of days. The binding was therefore from entering heaven with the other angels .( neither was their place found any more in heaven)
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, “which deceiveth the whole world”: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:7
He was cast out but not from deceiving the whole world.
The parables (mashal )of Solomon seem to give us some insight.
Just a personal note, the paraphraser used the word proverbs to indicate parables .My personal choice is the word parable in respect to dark hidden as to the spiritual meaning . It works better for me in lieu of Matthew 13:34.
Strongs lexicon 04912 mashal {maw-shawl'}
apparently from 04910 in some original sense of superiority in mental action; TWOT - 1258a; n m
AV - proverb 19, parable 18, byword 1, like 1; 39
1) proverb, parable 1a) proverb, proverbial saying, aphorism 1b) byword 1c) similitude, parable 1d) poem 1e) sentences of ethical wisdom, ethical maxims
The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel; To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the “words of understanding”; To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion. A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and "the interpretation"; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not. Pro 1:1-10
Without the parable or key that unlocks the mysteries by giving us His spiritual understanding they remain dark sayings."parables with no spiritual understanding". It's His work that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure, as the light shining in a dark place that does give us again the hidden spiritual understanding.
His revealed understandings shall be an ornament of grace unto our head, and chains about our neck.
Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
When looking at that parable in Revelation 20. We know that literal chains cannot bind a lying spirit, that a lying spirit can blind the mind of those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living, abiding in them..
That brings to question; what is the spiritual meaning of everlasting chains in respect a dark hidden understanding, seeing chains must be a metaphor, as used in parables.
Do we simply ignore what I call the key to the spiritual understandings of any parable seeing he hides the spiritual from some while giving it to His children? Should we be careful to not make everything a metaphor? Yes. But ignore the possibility of a spiritual hidden understanding, No.
I would suggest asking oneself the question in respect to the loosening and binding law that can get turned upside down. What is it they are bound from not doing?
The fall occurred when Christ said; it is finished . Other than being bound from appearing with the other angels that were be led by the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God, what could they be bound from not doing?
When looking at Jude as to "everlasting chains" under darkness, it I believe simply means they have no spiritual understanding. As far as salvation they are not subject to salvation to begin with. There is nothing to say the father of lies will not go on to the last day judgement day accusing the brethren day and night before God. (We can see that seeing he uses the Exodus account as us receiving salvation, our eternal rest in Christ.)
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jud 1:5
The tribulation we are in began at the time of the first century reformation. This is when the outward Jew was no longer needed to be used as shadows and types. That reformation turned the whole world upside down, but did not stop Satan who deceives the whole world right to the end of days. The binding was therefore from entering heaven with the other angels .( neither was their place found any more in heaven)
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, “which deceiveth the whole world”: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:7
He was cast out but not from deceiving the whole world.
The parables (mashal )of Solomon seem to give us some insight.
Just a personal note, the paraphraser used the word proverbs to indicate parables .My personal choice is the word parable in respect to dark hidden as to the spiritual meaning . It works better for me in lieu of Matthew 13:34.
Strongs lexicon 04912 mashal {maw-shawl'}
apparently from 04910 in some original sense of superiority in mental action; TWOT - 1258a; n m
AV - proverb 19, parable 18, byword 1, like 1; 39
1) proverb, parable 1a) proverb, proverbial saying, aphorism 1b) byword 1c) similitude, parable 1d) poem 1e) sentences of ethical wisdom, ethical maxims
The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel; To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the “words of understanding”; To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion. A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and "the interpretation"; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not. Pro 1:1-10
Without the parable or key that unlocks the mysteries by giving us His spiritual understanding they remain dark sayings."parables with no spiritual understanding". It's His work that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure, as the light shining in a dark place that does give us again the hidden spiritual understanding.
His revealed understandings shall be an ornament of grace unto our head, and chains about our neck.
Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
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Hi garee! what's the first century reformation, and who's saying it hasn't occurred?
Hello Garee,
If the literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense. Rev.20:1-7 means exactly what it says. What the great chain and key to the Abyss is made of is irrelevant. This is an amillennialist argument. They cite that a corporeal chain could not bind Satan and therefore, it must interpreted as spiritual. Whatever the chain is made of, Satan is bound in the Abyss. Here are the facts:
* The words "thousand years" is listed six times and therefore, God is conveying a literal thousand years.
* A thousand years is the amount of time that is stated that Jesus rules on this current earth
* That same thousand years is the amount of time that Satan is bound
* The location of the Abyss is where Satan will be bound, which is used elsewhere as a literal place.
a. The same place that those demons collectively called "Legion" begged Jesus not send them into (Lk.8:31).
b. The same place that the angel of the Abyss, the beast, is currently restricted in (Rev.9:11).
c. The same place that Jesus said Capernaum would be brought down to (Luke 10:15)
Whenever the names of literal people and literal locations are being used, these are not the characteristics of a parable. By symbolizing what is meant to be interpreted as being literal, you distort the word of God. You're forcing this information into being a parable. I would bring to your attention regarding the great chain, neither does the scripture state that it is corporeal. For you all you know, it could be a chain that is made for spiritual beings. You could say the same thing about demonic beings being under the earth, which should not be able to contain spiritual beings, yet, they are in fact contained and therefore, there is most definitely something that keeps them from being able to get out of the Abyss, otherwise they would all have escaped a long time ago.
You left out the most important part of that scripture:
"The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them."
He spoke parables to that generation of Israel, but to us, the church, the knowledge and the secrets of the kingdom have been given to us.
The proper way to read the book of Revelation is a face value unless a symbolic interpretation is obvious. Those who force symbolic interpretations upon what is meant as literal just distort the scriptures. This is also why many don't understand the severity of the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
If the literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense. Rev.20:1-7 means exactly what it says. What the great chain and key to the Abyss is made of is irrelevant. This is an amillennialist argument. They cite that a corporeal chain could not bind Satan and therefore, it must interpreted as spiritual. Whatever the chain is made of, Satan is bound in the Abyss. Here are the facts:
* The words "thousand years" is listed six times and therefore, God is conveying a literal thousand years.
* A thousand years is the amount of time that is stated that Jesus rules on this current earth
* That same thousand years is the amount of time that Satan is bound
* The location of the Abyss is where Satan will be bound, which is used elsewhere as a literal place.
a. The same place that those demons collectively called "Legion" begged Jesus not send them into (Lk.8:31).
b. The same place that the angel of the Abyss, the beast, is currently restricted in (Rev.9:11).
c. The same place that Jesus said Capernaum would be brought down to (Luke 10:15)
Whenever the names of literal people and literal locations are being used, these are not the characteristics of a parable. By symbolizing what is meant to be interpreted as being literal, you distort the word of God. You're forcing this information into being a parable. I would bring to your attention regarding the great chain, neither does the scripture state that it is corporeal. For you all you know, it could be a chain that is made for spiritual beings. You could say the same thing about demonic beings being under the earth, which should not be able to contain spiritual beings, yet, they are in fact contained and therefore, there is most definitely something that keeps them from being able to get out of the Abyss, otherwise they would all have escaped a long time ago.
You left out the most important part of that scripture:
"The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them."
He spoke parables to that generation of Israel, but to us, the church, the knowledge and the secrets of the kingdom have been given to us.
The proper way to read the book of Revelation is a face value unless a symbolic interpretation is obvious. Those who force symbolic interpretations upon what is meant as literal just distort the scriptures. This is also why many don't understand the severity of the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
Brother Ahwatukee,
I can only try to make you understand by using the things that you have told me, that you believe.
The key for you to understand this is,
1.Rome is the beast, dragon, Caesar is the Antichrist
2. This is about the restoration of Israel to Jerusalem and the 2nd resurrection (last)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
1. We have already discussed this to some degree so I'll get to the point.
The Iron legs of Dan 2 are Rome
The 4th beast of Dan 7 is Rome
The beast of Rev 17 is Rome
The woman of Rev 17 is Rome (RCC)
The dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns is Rome, Rev 12:3
Maintain your understanding consistency.
Make the beast represent the same thing at all times throughout Revelation.
Rome.
If the beast is Rome in Rev 17, then it MUST be Rome at the 5th trumpet.
If the Dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns in Rev 12:3 is Rome who sends a flood the woman (Israel), then the dragon who comes out of the B. pit MUST be Rome Rev 20.
You must see that Rome is one key to understanding these passages.
2. At the time of this writing (96 ad), the times of the gentiles had just begun (great tribulation).
Rome would kill the people of the kingdom (true Christians), and rule Israel (natural branches) for the next 1900 yrs.
How long would the times of the gentiles last? Luke 21:20-24
The seal and trumpets is about the restoration of Israel to Jerusalem and Rome.
Rev 20 is about the restoration and Rome.
You KNOW that these are nations, (governments, your word)
My brother,
What is hard for me to understand is how a person of such great knowledge of scripture, can not understand the symbolism in the Revelation.
It's like the 6th seal Rev 6:14, where "heaven departed as a scroll", you said that it was literal, but were still thinking.
What happened to your O.T. knowledge of the symbols?
Why don't you apply the O.T. meaning to them?
I mean, this was written in 96 ad right?
Did someone tell you NOT to connect them?
How can you do an in depth study of Revelation, and look at the history of the language and symbols, and rule the whole basis for the language and symbolism as "not applicable"?
You are saying to me that the O.T. symbolism doesn't apply in most "literal" applications.
gotta run
I can only try to make you understand by using the things that you have told me, that you believe.
The key for you to understand this is,
1.Rome is the beast, dragon, Caesar is the Antichrist
2. This is about the restoration of Israel to Jerusalem and the 2nd resurrection (last)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
1. We have already discussed this to some degree so I'll get to the point.
The Iron legs of Dan 2 are Rome
The 4th beast of Dan 7 is Rome
The beast of Rev 17 is Rome
The woman of Rev 17 is Rome (RCC)
The dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns is Rome, Rev 12:3
Maintain your understanding consistency.
Make the beast represent the same thing at all times throughout Revelation.
Rome.
If the beast is Rome in Rev 17, then it MUST be Rome at the 5th trumpet.
If the Dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns in Rev 12:3 is Rome who sends a flood the woman (Israel), then the dragon who comes out of the B. pit MUST be Rome Rev 20.
You must see that Rome is one key to understanding these passages.
2. At the time of this writing (96 ad), the times of the gentiles had just begun (great tribulation).
Rome would kill the people of the kingdom (true Christians), and rule Israel (natural branches) for the next 1900 yrs.
How long would the times of the gentiles last? Luke 21:20-24
The seal and trumpets is about the restoration of Israel to Jerusalem and Rome.
Rev 20 is about the restoration and Rome.
You KNOW that these are nations, (governments, your word)
My brother,
What is hard for me to understand is how a person of such great knowledge of scripture, can not understand the symbolism in the Revelation.
It's like the 6th seal Rev 6:14, where "heaven departed as a scroll", you said that it was literal, but were still thinking.
What happened to your O.T. knowledge of the symbols?
Why don't you apply the O.T. meaning to them?
I mean, this was written in 96 ad right?
Did someone tell you NOT to connect them?
How can you do an in depth study of Revelation, and look at the history of the language and symbols, and rule the whole basis for the language and symbolism as "not applicable"?
You are saying to me that the O.T. symbolism doesn't apply in most "literal" applications.
gotta run
The doctrine of men called "full Preterism" does not believe in a literal, physical 2nd coming, and some of them believe like the JW that it was spiritual and happened back in the Apostle's days. "Partial Preterism" divides itself from those by accepting a still future literal, bodily return to earth of our Lord Jesus.
This is not some spiritualization. Every eye seeing Jesus return with clouds, with all kindreds upon the earth wailing because of Him is a literal physical bodily reference, not some spiritualization created by men...
Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
KJV
Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 with 1 Thess.4, Rev.19, 2 Thess.1, Zech.14, Acts 1, Heb.9:28, are only a few Scriptures which testify of Jesus' literal, bodily second coming, with Zech.14 being specific to the spot on earth where He will return to.
Rev.20 shows the existence the "camp of the saints" in the "beloved city" ON EARTH where Christ's saints are, in reference to Jerusalem per Rev.22:14-15 where the Tree of Life will exist, also per the Ezekiel 47 Millennial chapter, even giving En-gedi, an old Biblical city in the middle east, as a literal location for where the Tree of Life will manifest. In John 14 Jesus shows His saints will be where He will be, and that He has prepared "mansions" for His elect, which are the abodes of the priests per the Ezekiel millennial temple layout, on earth.
Matthew 25 declares that when Jesus comes to sit upon the throne of His glory (which is the earthly throne of king David), and before Him will be gathered all nations, and He will separate His sheep from the goats.
Those are only a few examples that reveal Christ's second coming is still future, and that it will be seen by all peoples on earth. I didn't even get into to all the requirements of fulfilled Bible prophecy that must be fulfilled along with that event of His return which have never... to this day... happened yet.
To deny that Jesus' return is still yet to occur, along with the many Bible prophecies to show it, is man's foolishness.
The origin of that foolishness is from the devil, since it's the devil that today's powers of this world work for, and worship. They want a world kingdom without Jesus, but instead world-wide worship of Lucifer instead. Only in the 20th-21st centuries have they openly... expressed their plan and desire to create a "one world government" with one head over all nations, with declaring Jerusalem the International City of Peace. That movement only in the generation when Israel became a nation again in 1948 has been moving quickly forward towards that one-world government goal over all nations and peoples.
John, with all due respect, from what you have told me, you have not had enough time of study regarding end-time events and the book of Revelation. I have provided solid scriptures regarding these issues and you still don't want to understand and that because you have been exposed to the false teaching out in the world and are already adopting them. Therefore, I leave you with your beliefs and interpretations.
Brother Ahwatukee,
Just think about this,
Jesus is coming back in His glory and we shall be like Him,
But you say no, He will be have a regular body like when He was on earth the first time, that's why people will be able to see His face. And when it says we will be like Him, We will just have normal fleshly bodies like His, all "healed", we'll be like Him.
When the creator, the "I Am", reveals Himself, reveals His face, the mystery of God will be finished, Rev 10:7, 7th trumpet.
When Jesus appears in His glory we will be meeting the God of Mt Sinai face to face.
Do you think that the God of Mt Sinai, coming to destroy His enemies, will just be Jesus in His "unglorified" body?
Do you think that He will reign in Jerusalem for 1000 yrs in His glory like Mt Sinai or in a normal body?
You see this is where it all falls apart for you.
You cannot answer the hard questions and hold to the time line that you have set.
How many times will the face of God be revealed? 2,3,4,?
This is a serious question that you need to answer.
Again, you say that I am teaching someone else's teaching,
Again, where are they? Who are they? There is nobody but me and my Bible.
You have accused me again and again without any proof. (come on Bro, I'm not lying)
I love you brother, God bless you.
Brother John
Just think about this,
Jesus is coming back in His glory and we shall be like Him,
But you say no, He will be have a regular body like when He was on earth the first time, that's why people will be able to see His face. And when it says we will be like Him, We will just have normal fleshly bodies like His, all "healed", we'll be like Him.
When the creator, the "I Am", reveals Himself, reveals His face, the mystery of God will be finished, Rev 10:7, 7th trumpet.
When Jesus appears in His glory we will be meeting the God of Mt Sinai face to face.
Do you think that the God of Mt Sinai, coming to destroy His enemies, will just be Jesus in His "unglorified" body?
Do you think that He will reign in Jerusalem for 1000 yrs in His glory like Mt Sinai or in a normal body?
You see this is where it all falls apart for you.
You cannot answer the hard questions and hold to the time line that you have set.
How many times will the face of God be revealed? 2,3,4,?
This is a serious question that you need to answer.
Again, you say that I am teaching someone else's teaching,
Again, where are they? Who are they? There is nobody but me and my Bible.
You have accused me again and again without any proof. (come on Bro, I'm not lying)
I love you brother, God bless you.
Brother John