Israel’s Final Restoration

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Sure it has bearing on Romans 11. Romans 11 is talking about Israel and my question to you is which Israel is Romans 11 talking about.

I showed you once already, was it so hard to see?

1. The Isreal who are descended from Abraham (natural) paul was from the tribe of Benjamin, as he said in Vs 1
2. The Israel of which there is a remnant, (national Israel) vs 5
3. The Israel which is partially blind (vs 7, vs 8-10, 25-26)
4. The Israel who fell. so that the gospel can come to the rest of the world, namely us gentiles (vs 11, 12)
5. The Israel who paul said them being cast away brings reconciliation to the rest of the world (vs 15)
6. The Israel who is the Natural olive tree vs the gentile who is the unnatural olive tree. (vs 16-18)
7. The Israel who is the natural branches (vs 19- 21) as apposed to gentile believers who are unnatural branches)
8. The Israel who is Natural branches readily grafted into cultivated olive tree, vs unnatural branches from wild olive tree. who was grafted un (gentile) Vs 24)
9. The Israel who is ungodly, But will be changed to repent of her ungodliness, and turn from her wicked ways, Also known as Jacob) (vs 26-17)
10, The Israel who is currently an enemy of the gospel. but beloved because of the fathers (vs 28-29)

How many times do I have to show you who this is? was my post where I highlighted who Isreal/Gentile and Christ was not enough?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
1. Israel

Yes, Paul was a literal Jew. But look at how he works with the salvation of Jews - even he, as a Jew, can be saved in church!! That is the context of this verse. Not any future event.

Read carefully:

"I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them." Rom 11:14

Salvation plan for Jews is the same as for us.


2. The prophecy about taking away sins


Oh, taking away our sins has nothing to do with us? Can you prove that somehow? I thought its the basis of Christianity.
ok, I know it is hard for some people.

1. Paul is speaking of a future even, When the ungodliness of Jacob will be removed. Not the salvation of induviduals.
2. Paul is not speaking of the salvation of induviduals. But talking about how one groups (isreal) falling away led to another groups (gentile) being grafted in. And how great this is, But we gentiles better not be foolish, but be wise, Because just as fast as they were cast away, We too can be cast away. In fact that is what will happen. When their blindness is remeoved, and all isreal is saved.

trying to force rom 11 into individual salvation of one person is to totally ignore what is said in the text.


.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
What do you mean by pagan church? Church from 1st to 19th century?
WHat do you think the church of rome was?
What do you mean by antisemitism? The thing that every man on this planet has the same way of salvation is antisemitism?

I mean your argument used against me is no more usefull in the argument then me saying your belief came from antisemetism of the early roman church.

Lets stick to facts and not use these strawmen arguments, which do nothing to support our case.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
The deliverer came out of Zion 2000 years ago.
Nope. that was a future event.

Paul spoke future tense.. You have Christ dieing AFTER paul wrote romans 11. That is not good exegesis.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
How do you know Israel will repent as a nation in the future? Do you have some Bible verses for that? Except of "in this way all Israel will be saved" we are discussing right now.
we can start with ez 37, and we can find many many more OT prophesies which show a future repentance of the nation of Isreal after she was utterly scattered completely from her homeland, which did not occure for the first time until 70AD.
 
R

RobbyEarl

Guest
1968, God will perform His word and when you see the Fig tree blossom look up for your redemption draweth nigh. Amen
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Some of these prophecies were fulfilled even before the first coming of Christ, some are spiritual about Christ and church, as New testament says.
If you think that they were intended to be fulfilled multiple times in history or that they must be all literal and not spiritual, you can show us why.

You do not spiritually fulfill prophesy. Prophesy must be literally fulfilled. or it loses its purpose.

If God says this will happen, it will happen, it proves he is God for ONLY god can say this will happen, and it happens literally hundreds, maybe 1000's of years later. No other so called prophet of any diety can do this.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
In Seminary, even the pre-trib, pre-millennial professors said, "There is NO plan B for the Jews!"

Again, one needs to look at who Israel is, once Christ fuflilled everything in the Old Testament. And do all those OT Scriptures to prove something in a Gentile future, way down the road? Not really!

Much easier to understand the giving back of the land as when the exiles from Judah return from Babylon. That was the Jews last chance to get it, right, and they went from the extreme of not following God, but foreign gods to the other extreme of thinking they were saved by the law.

As for the 3 millennium references in Revelation 20, the only place that is found in the Bible - so really one reference repeated three times. And good hermeneutics never makes a doctrine out of one reference, or for that matter, three found only in one chapter.

Especially in a book that is symbolic!

I look forward to the return of Christ, when he will restore the earth and rule and reign over us for eternity. Instead of a literal 1000 year reign with saints and sinners, which is problematic in itself, let alone Satan being released after the millennium. And what happens after that? I am sure the Bible is not supposed to end on a cliff hanger about the future!

I love ya sis. But it does not matter what seminary teachers or professors say, You will have other professors from other seminaries say the total opposite.

What matters is what God says.

Ez 37 says Isreal, after she had been completely removed from her land, which did not occur until 70AD (this did not happen with Babylon, they did not remove all people. only some did they take back to Babylon. ) would be reunited as one nation, Repent of her sins, and be restored in her land.

other prophesies from the same and other prophets say the same thing.

This is not about Isreal. or the jews. it is about God keeping his word, and fulfilling his prophesies.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Are you able to answer the question... who are the flesh children of Israel?
I answered the question I gave you pauls interpretation on who they are

what more can you possibly need?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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I showed you once already, was it so hard to see?

1. The Isreal who are descended from Abraham (natural) paul was from the tribe of Benjamin, as he said in Vs 1
2. The Israel of which there is a remnant, (national Israel) vs 5
3. The Israel which is partially blind (vs 7, vs 8-10, 25-26)
4. The Israel who fell. so that the gospel can come to the rest of the world, namely us gentiles (vs 11, 12)
5. The Israel who paul said them being cast away brings reconciliation to the rest of the world (vs 15)
6. The Israel who is the Natural olive tree vs the gentile who is the unnatural olive tree. (vs 16-18)
7. The Israel who is the natural branches (vs 19- 21) as apposed to gentile believers who are unnatural branches)
8. The Israel who is Natural branches readily grafted into cultivated olive tree, vs unnatural branches from wild olive tree. who was grafted un (gentile) Vs 24)
9. The Israel who is ungodly, But will be changed to repent of her ungodliness, and turn from her wicked ways, Also known as Jacob) (vs 26-17)
10, The Israel who is currently an enemy of the gospel. but beloved because of the fathers (vs 28-29)

How many times do I have to show you who this is? was my post where I highlighted who Isreal/Gentile and Christ was not enough?
No need to get upset I'm just trying to figure out how you come to your view. I'm hitting item 1 in your list first and then I will address the others afterward.

In verse 1 who is God's people that Paul is questioning whether God has cast them away or not?

A) All of the flesh descendants of Abraham.

or

B) Only the flesh descendants of Israel that God chose like Paul who was a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:1 KJV
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Nope. that was a future event.

Paul spoke future tense.. You have Christ dieing AFTER paul wrote romans 11. That is not good exegesis.
Paul was quoting Old Testament prophecies.

Romans 11:26 KJV
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The deliverer, Jesus came out of Zion 2000 years ago and he did turn Jacob from ungodliness... Saul was "Jacob" until the Deliverer came and changed him to Paul.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Paul was quoting Old Testament prophecies.

Romans 11:26 KJV
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Highlighted words show a future event. In this manner shall all isreal be saved, The manner will be the deliverer who will turn the ungodliness away from Jacob (Isreal)

There is no other way to interpret this without twisting what it says. It does not individuals will be saved, It says literally, the nation of Isreal (Jacob) will turn from its evil ways, repent, and receiver her messiah.


The deliverer, Jesus came out of Zion 2000 years ago and he did turn Jacob from ungodliness... Saul was "Jacob" until the Deliverer came and changed him to Paul.
Saul was not Jacob, And paul was not talking about himself being all Isreal.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
No need to get upset I'm just trying to figure out how you come to your view. I'm hitting item 1 in your list first and then I will address the others afterward.

In verse 1 who is God's people that Paul is questioning whether God has cast them away or not?

A) All of the flesh descendants of Abraham.

or

B) Only the flesh descendants of Israel that God chose like Paul who was a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:1 KJV
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Paul said this to answer a question. Has God cast away his people (israel)

Pauls answer was no. He was an insrealite. He is part of the remnant who God promised he would continue to have.

Why bother having a remnant, if like you guys believe, God is done with Isreal. Having a remnant then becomes meaningless.

The only reason to have a remnant, is to assure the people of that nationality God is not done with your people.. He will never let them cease to exist. Which is what paul says in the rest of the chapter as well as explaining why there is a remnant.

Can you name a cannanite today how about an Edomite? Did God ever promise that they would have a remnant?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Highlighted words show a future event. In this manner shall all isreal be saved, The manner will be the deliverer who will turn the ungodliness away from Jacob (Isreal)

There is no other way to interpret this without twisting what it says. It does not individuals will be saved, It says literally, the nation of Isreal (Jacob) will turn from its evil ways, repent, and receiver her messiah.




Saul was not Jacob, And paul was not talking about himself being all Isreal. I can not believe you posted this with any honest intention at all..
Are you saying that you believe that all, as in every single one of Israel's physical descendants will be saved?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Are you saying that you believe that all, as in every single one of Israel's physical descendants will be saved?
I am saying that in the future, At a certain time ( as explained by paul) the nation of Isreal. wherever they are on earth, as A NATION will turn from their ungodly ways, Repent, and be saved.

Does that mean every person living? That is up to God.. I can not make such claims. Ez 37 said the two nations (Isreal and Judah will repent. Turn from their wicked ways, be re-united. Restored to her place on earth, Never to stop following God again, This is the even paul is describing.


Ez 37: [SUP]21 [/SUP]“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; [SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. [SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Again, Does this mean every child of Israel living at the time? the text does not say, But it does say they will be turned from their ungodliness and wicked ways, Be reunited as one nation, And never be divided again.

This has never happened in the history of mankind since Israel was formed.
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
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You are changing the Bible:

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery...Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and IN THIS WAY all Israel will be saved."
Don't know what Bible translation you're using, but the Greek manuscripts does not have that "IN THIS WAY" phrase in that verse.

Rom 11:25-26
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
KJV


Rom 11:25-26
25 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;
26 and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
ASV


Rom 11:25-26
25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in,
26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,

RSV


Rom 11:25-27
25 I want you to know about this truth from God, dear brothers, so that you will not feel proud and start bragging. Yes, it is true that some of the Jews have set themselves against the Gospel now, but this will last only until all of you Gentiles have come to Christ-those of you who will.
26 And then all Israel will be saved.

Do you remember what the prophets said about this? "There shall come out of Zion a Deliverer, and he shall turn the Jews from all ungodliness.
27 At that time I will take away their sins, just as I promised."

TLB


Rom 11:25-27
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
NIV


Rom 11:25-26
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery -- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation -- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
NASU
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
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Thing is, the NIV edition I have doesn't have that phrase "IN THIS WAY", neither is it in the Greek texts.

Here's the NIV passage from Bible Gateway...

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
 
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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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ok, I know it is hard for some people.

1. Paul is speaking of a future even, When the ungodliness of Jacob will be removed. Not the salvation of induviduals.


PROVE IT!

2. Paul is not speaking of the salvation of individuals.
It may not have struck you but a group is made up of individuals and each ONE has to be converted.

But talking about how one groups (isreal) falling away led to another groups (gentile) being grafted in. A
the falling away and grafting in is of many INDIVIDUALS. Not all Israel was cut off. not all Gentiles were saved

And how great this is, But we gentiles better not be foolish, but be wise, Because just as fast as they were cast away, We too can be cast away. In fact that is what will happen. When their blindness is remeoved, and all isreal is saved.
still missing the point of ISRAEL? yawn,

trying to force rom 11 into individual salvation of one person is to totally ignore what is said in the text.
it is dealing with large numbers of individuals. or do you think their leader only will be converted?
 
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tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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So if all Israel being saved means Physical Israel and not saved individuals does that mean a Jewish criminal say a Murderer will be saved because He or She is Jewish?
 
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God who is not served by human hands is simply no respecter of person. The outward flesh of any nation has never had anything do with salvation. Types and shadows as that seen, the temporal were used temporally to point to the eternal not seen, but were never the payment for sin. They provide no saving grace.They are considered dead works (they have no spirit life to offer)

Ceremonial laws are merely fleshly temporal ordinances or celebrations. They either look ahead or back to an event.

If the flesh of Christ profited for nothing (zero) what would make a person think it would of profited for any other person?

Taking that which is spiritual and trying to make it about literal flesh and blood is not about the gospel of Christ .It would be another kind. Not one we have received. .

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the “things which are seen”, but at the “things which are not seen”: for the things which are seen “are temporal”; but the things which are not seen “are eternal”.

A clear distinction must be made between the invisible, eternal “thing of God” and the visible temporal “things of men”. It is there that Satan the antichrist (singular) seeks to devour those antichrists (plural) who know not the wiles of the devil.

Scripture provides a clear picture of the antichrist and shows how deceived men like Peter, who worked with Satan to offend God.

You could say Peter forgot to apply the precept found in 2Co 4:18 so that he could find the spiritual meaning of the parable in regard to the gates of hell that was given prior to Peter trying to thwart the salvation program the gospel. You could say the opposite happened the gates did prevail , when it became the “things of men”.

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.But he turned, and said unto "Peter", Get thee behind me, "Satan": thou art an "offence unto me": for thou savourest not the "things that be of God", but "those that be of men". Mat 16:22

Many dismiss the procedure above(2Co 4:18 ) needed to rightly divide the word of God . In a false fear of what they call spiritualizing even where the spiritual understanding is needed .Therefore making the parable without effect. They will say look for the literal interpretation. Don’t search for the spiritual understanding.

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

That kind of not rightfully dividing the word of God would be dissipation of the spirit, the subtle that caused the fall in the beginning. When Adam and Eve refused to walk by faith in respect to a invisible God , walking by faith (the unseen God) but rather put their trust in the creature that took on the form of a creature .

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those “things” which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, Col 2:16

Intruding into those fleshly “things of men” the temporal, and hoping to make them the not seen , eternal , spiritual, is a hope that comes by turning the “things of God” upside down in a hope they could come after what is seen .

Searching as for silver or gold for the spiritual meaning as the “things of God” in the parables throughout the scriptures can save much work of repenting, as with Peter..who was used as one of antichrists (plural) one led by the father of lies. (the antichrist singular)