Can a christian lose their salvation

[JohnOne]

It helps to define terms when discussing things in scriptures.

1 Tim. 4:1 To "depart from the faith" means to not believe in Christ as Savior and His sacrifice. We are told to be obedient to the faith which is to receive Christ and some people will not be obedient and come to Christ.

Romans 1:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Romans 16:26 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Acts 6:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Without faith there is no grace.

By grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH

They have faith and depart from it as God The Holy Spirit said. Your not coming against me I'm just sharing God's word.

 

[JohnOne]

As a result of waxing wanton against Christ these widows have these results

1 Timothy 5:11-12 KJV But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; 12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

They cast off their first faith and as a result have damnation ( the opposite of which is salvation )

They cast off their first FAITH. They had faith and cast it off.

 

[bikerchaz]

Welcome to CC Johnone.

 

[chancer]

Without faith there is no grace.

By grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH

They have faith and depart from it as God The Holy Spirit said. Your not coming against me I'm just sharing God's word.

You can't substantiate your claim through that one verse. Plus you have only shown half of it ...8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no [FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]one can[/FONT] boast[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]I mean if faith is a gift from God, it's given through God's grace. Otherwise one would be boasting in their own works and self - righteousness.

 

[Grace777x70]

Without faith there is no grace.

By grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH

They have faith

and depart from it as God The Holy Spirit said. Your not coming against me I'm just sharing God's word.

I understand and I am sharing God's word too . The definition of "depart from the faith" is to not be obedient to believe that Jesus is the Savior as God's word has shown.

What you have done is to take a scripture that we are saved by faith and then to say to depart from "this faith" is to depart from the "the faith" which is to believe in Christ for salvation. You are reading into what is being said from different scriptures.

 

[JohnOne]

Welcome to CC Johnone.

Thank you very much happy to be here.

 

[JohnOne]

I understand and I am sharing God's word too . The definition of "depart from the faith" is to not be obedient to believe that Jesus is the Savior as God's word has shown.

What you have done is to take a scripture that we are saved by faith and then to say to depart from "this faith" is to depart from the "the faith" which is to believe in Christ for salvation. You are reading into what is being said from different scriptures.

O there will be no getting around the exact definition.

1Ti 4:1 NowG1161 theG3588 SpiritG4151 speakethG3004 expressly,G4490 thatG3754 inG1722 the latterG5306 timesG2540 someG5100 shall departG868 from theG3588 faith,G4102 giving heedG4337 to seducingG4108 spirits,G4151 andG2532 doctrinesG1319 of devils;G1140

The verse with greek word numbers to the right. The greek word number for depart is G868

G868 ἀφίστημι aphistēmi af-is'-tay-mee


It means to remove, that is, (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: - depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

Notice this happens FROM THE FAITH. some shall remove, desist, desert, depart, fall away, withdraw self FROM THE FAITH. According to God ( The Holy Spirit ). Speaking expressly.

Titus 3:10

 

[Grace777x70]

As a result of waxing wanton against Christ these widows have these results

1 Timothy 5:11-12 KJV But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; 12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

They cast off their first faith and as a result have damnation ( the opposite of which is salvation )

They cast off their first FAITH. They had faith and cast it off.

Here is what that scripture is saying...sometimes things in the old english are mis-leading.

It is so important to read scriptures in context or that "text" will "con" you as the saying goes....

1 Timothy 5:11-12 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But refuse to put younger widows on the list, for when they feel sensual desires in disregard of Christ, they want to get married,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] thus incurring condemnation, because they have set aside their previous pledge.

This scripture is not saying that young widows that marry are in "damnation" and that they will spend eternity in hell separated from God - that's ridiculous.

There are many good commentaries that give meaning t this verse. It is talking about a widow that the church is supporting and what all that means.


This statement you made here is something you made up and it is not in the scripture that you quoted.

Quote:

They cast off their first faith and as a result have damnation ( the opposite of which is salvation )

They cast off their first FAITH. They had faith and cast it off.

 

[JohnOne]

Here is what that scripture is saying...sometimes things in the old english are mis-leading.

It is so important to read scriptures in context or that "text" will "con" you as the saying goes....

1 Timothy 5:11-12 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But refuse to put younger widows on the list, for when they feel sensual desires in disregard of Christ, they want to get married,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] thus incurring condemnation, because they have set aside their previous pledge.

This scripture is not saying that young widows that marry are in "damnation" and that they will spend eternity in hell separated from God - that's ridiculous.

There are many good commentaries that give meaning t this verse. It is talking about a widow that the church is supporting and what all that means.


This statement you made here is something you made up and it is not in the scripture that you quoted.

Quote:

They cast off their first faith and as a result have damnation ( the opposite of which is salvation )

They cast off their first FAITH. They had faith and cast it off.

Titus 3:10

 

[JohnOne]

This person is on ignore. I guess he equates damnation with salvation. I am not sure what to say the words and their definitions and the context is quite clear.

2 John 1:10-11 KJV If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

I shared the truth time for some rest.

 

[Grace777x70]

O there will be no getting around the exact definition.

1Ti 4:1 NowG1161 theG3588 SpiritG4151 speakethG3004 expressly,G4490 thatG3754 inG1722 the latterG5306 timesG2540 someG5100 shall departG868 from theG3588 faith,G4102 giving heedG4337 to seducingG4108 spirits,G4151 andG2532 doctrinesG1319 of devils;G1140

The verse with greek word numbers to the right. The greek word number for depart is G868

G868 ἀφίστημι aphistēmi af-is'-tay-mee


It means to remove, that is, (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: - depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

Notice this happens FROM THE FAITH. some shall remove, desist, desert, depart, fall away, withdraw self FROM THE FAITH. According to God ( The Holy Spirit ). Speaking expressly.

Titus 3:10

Thank you...I looked it up and it means to "fall away" from the faith..,,which means to trust in something else for your life instead of "the faith of Christ" for salvation only...and the Greek word being used by Paul is.."apostasy" and is defined here by Paul.

1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai )from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

[SUP]2 [/SUP]by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;

[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.

verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith....this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others..is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.

This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort...

It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.

.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ is what "departing from the faith is "

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This person is on ignore. I guess he equates damnation with salvation. I am not sure what to say the words and their definitions and the context is quite clear.

2 John 1:10-11 KJV If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

I shared the truth time for some rest.

FYI, in case you don't know, the person of whom you speak is of the hyper grace persuasion, which doctrine holds that no believer can ever be lost no matter what is done with the body. He will quote scripture all day long, but it is filtered through that lens.

btw what are you doing with that (what looks like a) battery fluid sucker?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Here is James scripture:

James 5:19-20 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

One way of seeing this is this "Brethren" is a term used by all Jewish people for each other , whether believers or not. James was writing to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. James is the first book written and at that time Jewish believers and non-believers were in the synagogues together. The term "brethren" can be seen used by Paul and Peter a lot in Acts when speaking to Jewish people. ( it could mean just Jewish believers too but his epistle would have been read in all places and heard from both believers and unbelievers).

Hello Grace777,

With all due respect, it doesn't matter whether James is speaking to Jew or Gentile, for The other words in the context support the meaning. The verse says "If any of you wander away from the truth" which would mean that believers in Christ are in view. The scripture reveals that while in that wandered state they are accumulating sin and are on their way to death. But, if another believer brings them back, then they will save that person from death and hide a multitude of sins. Please consider what Paul said to the Galatian believers:

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life."

In other words, a person can say that they are in Christ all they want, but anyone who is willfully sowing to the flesh, they will reap destruction. I would also remind you that Paul is not writing to unbelievers, but to the Galatian church. Salvation by grace through faith is like a wall socket and a plug. The wall socket is the believers connection to God's grace and the plug is the individual faith. As long as we are having faith, we are plugged into God's grace. But, when we stop having faith, then we have unplugged from the wall socket of grace. We need to plug back in to make connection to God's grace.

In Luke's version of Mt.24, Jesus said the following to His disciples and therefore to all believers:

"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap.For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth.Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

"Closing on you suddenly like a trap" doesn't sound very reassuring for the believer, does it? Our salvation comes through God's grace and our part is faith. Salvation is based on our continuing in faith, from first to last. For without faith it is impossible to please him. As I said, there is just an overwhelming amount of scripture demonstrating that our salvation is dependent upon our having faith. I am not one who believes in once saved, always saved. However, I do believe in "once saved, always saved" if we continue in faith. I believe that James 5:19 means exactly what it conveys.

 

[Grace777x70]

This person is on ignore. I guess he equates damnation with salvation. I am not sure what to say the words and their definitions and the context is quite clear.

2 John 1:10-11 KJV If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

I shared the truth time for some rest.

I think you will find that in your time here on CCV you will have to put 3/4 of the people on ignore as they believe when Jesus said " I will never leave you nor forsake you and that no one ( which includes ourselves ) can take you out of My hands" - 3/4 of the Christians here believe in what Jesus said and that we are secure in Christ.

Everyone will not agree with you on every doctrine so you will end up putting all of CC in ignore eventually because they are "heretics" in your mind as Titus 3:10 says.

Knowing this " security" we have in Christ brings about "maturity" just as it does in every other relationship.

The Lord bless you...and I hope you enjoy CC and grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus and in His great salvation.

 

[gb9]

I think you will find that in your time here on CCV you will have to put 3/4 of the people on ignore as they believe when Jesus said " I will never leave you nor forsake you and that no one ( which includes ourselves ) can take you out of My hands" - 3/4 of the Christians here believe in what Jesus said and that we are secure in Christ.

Everyone will not agree with you on every doctrine so you will end up putting all of CC in ignore eventually because they are "heretics" in your mind as Titus 3:10 says.

Knowing this " security"we have in Christ brings about "maturity" just as it does in every other relationship.

The Lord bless you...and I hope you enjoy CC and grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus and in His great salvation.

yeah, I love it when someone shows up on here, pounds works Salvationism , then gets ticked off, puts people on ignore because someone disagrees with them, not the Bible but with them. would be funny if it were not sad.

 

[JohnOne]

FYI, in case you don't know, the person of whom you speak is of the hyper grace persuasion, which doctrine holds that no believer can ever be lost no matter what is done with the body. He will quote scripture all day long, but it is filtered through that lens.

btw what are you doing with that (what looks like a) battery fluid sucker?

Thank yes I know I am aware of the hyper grace persuasion. Just following what God's word says on the matter. I have a battery fluid sucker but I use it to change the oil on machines lol No thats a tape measure I was horsing around at work. Just enjoying being out in the sun taking care of God's green earth. Its the company slogan actually from Genisis 1:11

Taking care of God's green earth one blade at a time.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hi brother Ahwatukee,

I have thought of those verses you mentioned to ggs7 and I will answer them if you don't mind.

Here is James scripture:

James 5:19-20 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

One way of seeing this is this "Brethren" is a term used by all Jewish people for each other , whether believers or not. James was writing to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. James is the first book written and at that time Jewish believers and non-believers were in the synagogues together. The term "brethren" can be seen used by Paul and Peter a lot in Acts when speaking to Jewish people. ( it could mean just Jewish believers too but his epistle would have been read in all places and heard from both believers and unbelievers).

So, James is saying if one of you should "stray" from the truth ( Which we know is Jesus ). The word Greek word "stray" means to be deceived. Here is Jesus using the word and He calls it "to err"..because of not knowing the scriptures.

Mark 12:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

This statement in verse 20 " he who turns a sinner from the error of his way' . The Greek word "turns" is the same word Peter used when talking in Acts 3:19 ( return ) when talking to the Jewish people after Pentecost. To turn means "to be converted" - as in believe and receive Christ.

Acts 3:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
.

James also calls this person a "Sinner" which is the complete opposite of what Paul calls believers - he always referred them as "saints" no matter what outward sin they were into ( see 1 Cor. where people were going to temple prostitutes foe sex etc. - yet Paul still calls them "saints" ) It's a matter of identity as a child of God.

I believe this passage in James is talking about Jewish brethren that have heard of Christ but do not believe in Jesus and thus wander from receiving Him as He is the Truth. Even "if" James was talking about believers it does not say that they go too hell. It says that their soul will be saved from death ( soul is used sometimes to talk about life here on earth as when Herod wanted Jesus' soul when He was a baby and they moved to Egypt to get away ).

I agree living from the flesh will destroy our life here on this earth. However to say that a believer in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit will not be with the Lord when they die goes against the abundance of clear scripture that say the complete opposite.

The rule is = never let obscure scriptures "rob" us of the truth that is in the multitude of scriptures that we know. If obscure scriptures "seem" to contradict the abundance of clear scriptures then we are not interpreting those scriptures correctly and need the Holy Spirit to reveal those to us.

There are a lot of times in the original Greek the "if" is actually a statement of it is fulfilled.....example

Colossians 1:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


If so be that ye continue in the faith (ei ge epimenete tēi pistei).

Condition of the first class (determined as fulfilled),

A.T. Robertson Word Pictures in the New Testament.

Sorry for the long post but this is very involved and there is so much more one can say about these passages in James 5:19-20.

Hello again Grace,

Here is another example:

"He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not blot out his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

The scripture above was written to the church of Sardis and the promise is that, for those who overcome, Jesus will not blot their names out of the book of life. So let's reverse that promise:

"The one who doesn't overcome will not be clothed in white garments. And I will blot out his name from the book of life, and I will not confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

In all of the promises to the seven churches, the opposite is true for the individual who does not overcome.

 

[JohnOne]

yeah, I love it when someone shows up on here, pounds works Salvationism , then gets ticked off, puts people on ignore because someone disagrees with them, not the Bible but with them. would be funny if it were not sad.

Our salvation is not based on works. Its about believe and unbelief. Belief = salvation, unbelief = damnation. Quite simple really. Sin leads to spiritual death. God decides and we have His word to follow. You judged based on bible verses I posted which is what God said. I followed God's instructions according to Titus 3:10 and 2 John 1:10-11 What is interesting is you not knowing the whole truth, you spoke. I believe thats in the bible too. You should read Psalms and Proverbs.

Speaking of Psalms. Here is an interesting Psalm.

Psalms 51:1 KJV To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. ( committed adultery ) Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.


Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Apparently David knew he could lose the Holy Spirit for his sin. Interesting how there are so many verses that share this truth. I could share many many more but only a few are needed. God's word.

Rom_3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

 

[Grace777x70]

Hello Grace777,

With all due respect, it doesn't matter whether James is speaking to Jew or Gentile, for The other words in the context support the meaning. The verse says "If any of you wander away from the truth" which would mean that believers in Christ are in view. The scripture reveals that while in that wandered state they are accumulating sin and are on their way to death. But, if another believer brings them back, then they will save that person from death and hide a multitude of sins. Please consider what Paul said to the Galatian believers:

"[/B][/B][/B][/B][/B]Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life."

In other words, a person can say that they are in Christ all they want, but anyone who is willfully sowing to the flesh, they will reap destruction. I would also remind you that Paul is not writing to unbelievers, but to the Galatian church. Salvation by grace through faith is like a wall socket and a plug. The wall socket is the believers connection to God's grace and the plug is the individual faith. As long as we are having faith, we are plugged into God's grace. But, when we stop having faith, then we have unplugged from the wall socket of grace. We need to plug back in to make connection to God's grace.

In Luke's version of Mt.24, Jesus said the following to His disciples and therefore to all believers:

"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap.For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth.Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

"Closing on you suddenly like a trap" doesn't sound very reassuring for the believer, does it? Our salvation comes through God's grace and our part is faith. Salvation is based on our continuing in faith, from first to last. For without faith it is impossible to please him. As I said, there is just an overwhelming amount of scripture demonstrating that our salvation is dependent upon our having faith. I am not one who believes in once saved, always saved. However, I do believe in "once saved, always saved" if we continue in faith. I believe that James 5:19 means exactly what it conveys.

I understand your interpretation of James and every one is entitled to their thoughts on a scripture and it may actually be a combination of our thoughts together too. I believe I have made my thoughts known on that portion of James which is backed up by other scripture as well.

I believe 100% in what Paul wrote in Galatians.

Galatians 6:7-8 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

I agree that the person who sows to their flesh will have corruption come upon them but if we live by the spirit within us - it brings life - God's kind of life to us in this earth.

Let's think this out for a minute.

If a person is walking according to the flesh - let's say.."slandering people" or gluttony. Take a believer who is a glutton - they are walking in the flesh in doing that. This person goes to church, reads the bible and prays all the time but they are still caught in this gluttony thing.

This person's body will eventually reap corruption and die from a diet related disease. They could have walked by the spirit within them and had self-control which is a fruit of the spirit and thus experience God's kind of life on this earth - ( our bodies will still get old until we get the new ones...yes!)

Would this person above who walked in the flesh all their lives when they die - go to hell because of this?...or are they not secure in Christ because of their new creation in Him?

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Romans 8:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. ( this is referring to the quality of life here on earth )

I am all for living holy lives as sin is stupid and destructful to us and to those we love and it is a bad witness for the Lord, and it deceives us from seeing what Christ has done for us.

Preach the grace of God and sin will fall away from believers like Titus 2:11-12 says.

There are 2 aspects to "salvation" and we need not to mix them when we read scriptures or we will come up with doctrines that are opposite the abundance of clear scriptures that say we are in Christ and are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

1) it refers to the quality of life that we will experience in this earth as Galatians 6:7-8 shows us

2) salvation in relation to "going to be with the Lord" when one dies because they are in Christ.


We can also just agree to disagree too s we all know in part and we don't know things a we ought to know them either Paul says.......

 

[Grace777x70]

Hello again Grace,

Here is another example:

"He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not blot out his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

The scripture above was written to the church of Sardis and the promise is that, for those who overcome, Jesus will not blot their names out of the book of life. So let's reverse that promise:

"The one who doesn't overcome will not be clothed in white garments. And I will blot out his name from the book of life, and I will not confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

In all of the promises to the seven churches, the opposite is true for the individual who does not overcome.

Thank you for bringing that scripture up.

There is just too much to write about that so I will refer people to this website that tackles obscure scriptures that may "seem" to contradict the abundance of clear scriptures about our security in Christ. It has people asking questions at the bottom too so I learn from those as well.

https://escapetoreality.org/2010/04/11/incomplete-deeds-the-zombie-church-of-sardis-rev-31-6/

Here is another about "overcoming" that is talked about in Revelation..

https://escapetoreality.org/2010/06/23/to-him-who-overcomes/