Hell. It is in the Bible isnt it?

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Dec 10, 2015
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Revelation 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
The New Jerusalem

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12 It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 The one who spoke with me had a gold measuring rod to measure the city, and its gates and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal. 17 And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements. 18 The material of the wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation stone was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; 20 the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

I do not know about you, but i will spend Eternity with God, never ceasing, Eternal, forever being with God on the New Earth. You can believe all you want that death awaits you, but as for me i will live forever with Jesus!
 
Apr 25, 2015
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And therein lies your problem, the word "destruction" instead of the word "olethros" which is where the word "destruction" is being translated from. If I was to paraphrase that verse, it would go like the following:

"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"

"They will be punished with everlasting, complete loss of well being and ruin and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might."

This is what the word "olethros" is defined as, but the translators have to use a word to encompass the description of "complete loss of well being and ruination" and so some choose the word "destruction" which according to olethros does not imply annihilation or extinction. If you want to continue in this belief, you are free to do so, but let it be on your own head
And I can same thing about you, that therein also lies your problem and misunderstanding.

You need to address the fact "oleothros" has more than ONE meaning. Not just one as "loss"

The Greek word aiwn (αιων) means an age, and the phrase eis ton aiwna (εις τον αιωνα) literally means to the age, but most English Bibles translate it for ever. Similarly the Greek adjective aiwnios (αιωνιος) derived from aiwn, literally means age-lasting, but is generally translated eternal or everlasting. Similar things are true in the Old Testament of the Hebrew word olam.

The difference between these two ways of translating is absolutely radical. Everlasting and forever both imply time with no limit or end. Age-lasting and to the age are both uncertain in duration, but imply a limited time. Limited punishment is compatible with other teaching in the Bible about the restitution of all things (Acts 3: 21) and God reconciling all things to himself (Col 1: 20). Unlimited punishment is incompatible with these teachings.

Finally to note that God and Christ are not humans like me and you, who would say "Agree with me or else I am going to hurt ya for all eternity" You have turned God worse than Adolf Hitler. Good luck!
 
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Mitspa

Guest
JUST...As the Devil says..."you shall not surely die".... he says .. "hell is not that bad" ...its like a bad visit to the dentist ....don't worry
 
Apr 25, 2015
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And therein lies your problem, the word "destruction" instead of the word "olethros" which is where the word "destruction" is being translated from. If I was to paraphrase that verse, it would go like the following:

"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"

"They will be punished with everlasting, complete loss of well being and ruin and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might."

This is what the word "olethros" is defined as, but the translators have to use a word to encompass the description of "complete loss of well being and ruination" and so some choose the word "destruction" which according to olethros does not imply annihilation or extinction. If you want to continue in this belief, you are free to do so, but let it be on your own head
And John 5:24 the very words of the Lord Jesus Christ:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."
 
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Mitspa

Guest
And John 5:24 the very words of the Lord Jesus Christ:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."
So those that don't believe in "hell" ..don't believe His Words...right?
 
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Gr8grace

Guest
And John 5:24 the very words of the Lord Jesus Christ:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."
Yes. So did you come into existence at salvation. Or did you exist consciously in death before salvation?
 
Apr 25, 2015
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There is nothing to continue here, as I suspected all along and the evidence is very clear to see by anyone who can see, that people just interpret the Bible as they see fit, it is one persons opinion over anothers, many Christians claim they have the Spirit of God and yet what do we see? a difference of opinion or interpreation of the Holy Scriptures, how can different Christians who claim to have Holy Spirit from God have a different interpretation of the Bible if there is supposed to be only One Holy Spirit? it is clear to see the division in Christianity. Of course I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion or interpretation of the Holy Bible, but how convoluted is that.


cya
So you see based on what you said, the author of confusion is not Christ but the devil. And her house is inside the natural/carnal mind of man.

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 2:7
 
Apr 25, 2015
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So those that don't believe in "hell" ..don't believe His Words...right?
So, what now I am advocate of Christ appointed to approve or disapprove you? No. I am merely dust brother.

What if you are somebody who does not want to concern yourself with the fiery judgement of God, but rather wish to focus on Him and follow Him? And if that converts your soul to the image of Christ and having then maybe you will gain further understanding. It is not up to me to make a judgement on what you asked me. Sorry.
 
Apr 25, 2015
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Yes. So did you come into existence at salvation. Or did you exist consciously in death before salvation?
When God told Adam and Eve that they would 'die' if they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil (Serpent) and after eating the forbidden fruit, did they die? or were they alive like what the Serpent told them? Did God lie or the Serpent?

There is a natural death and a spiritual death. Adam and Eve brought forth upon them not only natural/physical death after a certain period of time but also a state of constant spiritual death in the state of the 'carnal/natural' mind.

Romans 8:6 says: "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."

Romans 8:7 :"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

Therefore, those who believe in Christ shall pass from judgement unto death into life.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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You need to address the fact "oleothros" has more than ONE meaning. Not just one as "loss"
The definition of the word would disagree with you. Since in its definition it states that it does not imply annihilation/extinction, which is in reference to the base meaning of the word. In other words, wherever olethros is used, it never infers annihilation/extinction, that is why they put it in the definition, which you are ignoring. Not only that, but you ignore the other words in the contexts that support on-going punishment. I'll put the question to you again, how can you claim annihilation in the lake of fire, when the other words in the scripture support on-going conscious punishment?

"
They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."


First of all, the word "torment" in the scripture above means "to torture." The type of torture is supported by the words "burning sulfur." And the words "for ever and ever" support the state of that torment. You also have the words "no rest day or night" which would further support the state of their torment. Also, the word "anapausis" translated "rest" meaning no cessation/intermission from said torment. This is just one example.

Finally to note that God and Christ are not humans like me and you, who would say "Agree with me or else I am going to hurt ya for all eternity" You have turned God worse than Adolf Hitler. Good luck!


Your logic above infers that God's love and mercy overrides His righteous judgment, which it does not. For those who die in their sins, God's attributes of grace and mercy are no longer in operation and that because they are not covered by the shed blood of Christ. At the great white throne judgment God is not going to be holding back his judgment, for every sin must be accounted for. The burden of proof is upon all those who claim annihilation as the end punishment and that because scripture does not support annihilation or extinction as judgment.

Now, by stating this I am not looking forward to the punishment of the unrighteous, but am contending for the truth and accuracy of God's word. Those who claim that the unrighteous are simply burned up and are annihilated, are simply ignoring what the word of God says regarding this subject.

 
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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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So those that don't believe in "hell" ..don't believe His Words...right?

That is a true statement:

Luke 12:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But I will show you the One to fear: Fear Him who has authority to throw ⌊people⌋ into hell after death. Yes, I say to you, this is the One to fear!

Matthew 23:31-33 (NKJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt.
[SUP]33 [/SUP] Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

Matthew 5:22 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But I tell you, everyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Fool!’ will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But whoever says, ‘You moron!’ will be subject to hellfire.

John 10:27-28 (ASV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[SUP]28 [/SUP] and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
 
Mar 20, 2015
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the author of confusion is not Christ but the devil.
I can agree with that, so what I have got to try to do is figure out which Christian minds the devil has infiltrated and operating through, this appears to be no easy task for people like me because it is so easy to interpret the Bible how anyone wants to, I have prayed about it recentley and in the past with a sincere heart and this type of praying method does not work for me, and I am being absolutely honest, it does not work, but to be absolutely honest I don't even know what I am supposed to do other than do research and see what others say, for me it is the only way to draw a conclusion about matters.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Hey VCO,

So, how would you explain the rich man and Lazarus or the souls under the altar? I don't see a problem with them retaining their essence of who they are in the spirit/soul after the death of the body. It seems as though that when a person is alive, the brain works in unison with the soul/spirit, but retains the essence of the person in spirit form after death. What other conclusion can we come to since we have scripture of the rich man and Lazarus, Moses and Elijah meeting with Jesus and the souls under the altar, who obviously are the same people they were when they were in their bodies, as they are recorded as asking the Lord about vengeance upon those who killed them.

Regarding death, personally, I have come to understand death through scripture, just like life, as a state of existence and not annihilation or non-existence. Again, we have to go back the previous examples, Spirit or soul or both? Something of the person is existing after the death of the body, else, how could we have these examples of people being conscious and aware after the death of the body?



Again, we need to understand what is meant by "death," which, as I stated previously, I believe that death is a state of existence, not non-existence. In 1 Thes.4:14 in describing the resurrection, Paul said that Jesus is going to bring with him, i.e. when he descends from heaven, those who have died in him, i.e. their spirits, at which point they will be reunited with their resurrected, immortal and glorified bodies. This would demonstrate that their are soul/spirit of the those who have died in Christ who will been in His presence and will descend with the Lord to receive their resurrected bodies.

We are missing each other's understanding by maybe one inch.

You say: we need to understand what is meant by "death,".

I say: we need to understand what is "soul".

The two statements above that I highlighted and underlined are 100% true about the human spirit, but not true about the human soul. As I pointed out earlier, SOUL is NOT part of the human spirit, but rather part of the human body. The Spirit of a believe thinks, stores memories, prays, worships, etc. You know we all have experienced the, war between Soul and Spirit, where the soul wants to do the will of the flesh, while the spirit wants to do the will of GOD. Yes as we mature spiritually, the human spirit will become dominate over the human soul; but NEVER are the two the same thing.

The human soul is alive and functioning a natural birth, while the human spirit is not eternally alive and in tune with the will of God until it is birthed into that eternal life by the Holy Spirit Himself.

John 3:6 (ASV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The facts in that verse VALIDATE that Soul has to be part of the Flesh.

Not convinced? Read on.

Genesis 27:4 (ASV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And make me savory food, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat. That my soul may bless thee before I die.

Genesis 27:19-20 (YLT)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And Jacob saith unto his father, `I am Esau thy first-born; I have done as thou hast spoken unto me; rise, I pray thee, sit, and eat of my provision, so that thy soul doth bless me.'
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And Isaac saith unto his son, `What is this thou hast hasted to find, my son?' and he saith, `That which Jehovah thy God hath caused to come before me.'

Job 6:6-7 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Can flavorless food be eaten without salt? Or is there any taste in the white of an egg?
[SUP]7 [/SUP] My soul refuses to touch them; They are as loathsome food to me.


There Soul is related to satisfying hunger.


 
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Apr 25, 2015
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The definition of the word would disagree with you. Since in its definition it states that it does not imply annihilation/extinction, which is in reference to the base meaning of the word. In other words, wherever olethros is used, it never infers annihilation/extinction, that is why they put it in the definition, which you are ignoring. Not only that, but you ignore the other words in the contexts that support on-going punishment. I'll put the question to you again, how can you claim annihilation in the lake of fire, when the other words in the scripture support on-going conscious punishment?


I don't wish to strive with you again and again over the fact that you cannot see that it has TWO meanings associated with that word. Again as I had mentioned previously:
[SUB]
The Greek word
aiwn (αιων) means an age, and the phrase eis ton aiwna (εις τον αιωνα) literally means to the age, but most English Bibles translate it for ever. Similarly the Greek adjective aiwnios (αιωνιος) derived from aiwn, literally means age-lasting, but is generally translated eternal or everlasting. Similar things are true in the Old Testament of the Hebrew word olam.

The difference between these two ways of translating is absolutely radical. Everlasting and forever both imply time with no limit or end. Age-lasting and to the age are both uncertain in duration, but imply a limited time. Limited punishment is compatible with other teaching in the Bible about the restitution of all things (Acts 3: 21) and God reconciling all things to himself (Col 1: 20). Unlimited punishment is incompatible with these teachings.
[/SUB]
"They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

With regards to the above verse, there is no indication whatsoever that verse is applicable to any human soul that is not a Christian. Neither you nor me nor the church has a clear understanding on what that actually means, and how and when it will manifest. That verse could also apply to evils spirits, demons, and fallen angels.

Your logic above infers that God's love and mercy overrides His righteous judgment, which it does not. For those who die in their sins, God's attributes of grace and mercy are no longer in operation and that because they are not covered by the shed blood of Christ. At the great white throne judgment God is not going to be holding back his judgment, for every sin must be accounted for. The burden of proof is upon all those who claim annihilation as the end punishment and that because scripture does not support annihilation or extinction as judgment.
My logic is different in understanding of the way judgement of God will be executed than that of yours. Like the user 'Kedge' said above: there cannot be different truths of the Holy spirit. So, one of us is misguided. You believe it's me, and I believe it is you.

Also if you what you said is true that if anybody that does not, or did not know about Christ will be tortured all eternity with no end. Then what about all the human souls that lived on earth before Christ came to earth ? Will they ALLL be tortured in Hell for all eternity? That is completely absurd. You in fact contradicted yourself. It is in fact The great Magnificent White throne judgement of God that will render to each one according to his works, and especially to the ones who lived before Christ came to earth.

If what you said is true, then it clearly contradicts what Romans 2:6 says "
God will repay each person according to what they have done."


Now, by stating this I am not looking forward to the punishment of the unrighteous, but am contending for the truth and accuracy of God's word. Those who claim that the unrighteous are simply burned up and are annihilated, are simply ignoring what the word of God says regarding this subject.

The Bible is clear about punishment, but how that punishment will be executed and what will be the state of the human soul and his consciousness in the Lake of Fire where a soul suffers second death is of obvious dispute among us as we see now. I don't know how some think that they will continue to live even after the second death, which is not possible.


 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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With regards to the above verse, there is no indication whatsoever that verse is applicable to any human soul that is not a Christian. Neither you nor me nor the church has a clear understanding on what that actually means, and how and when it will manifest. That verse could also apply to evils spirits, demons, and fallen angels.



I beg to differ sir! The scripture is clear that it is those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark that the above is to be applied to, which are the inhabitants of the earth. And that scripture demonstrates on-going punishment, not annihilation. Furthermore, Evil spirits/demons are not who is in view as those not worshiping the beast and receiving his mark.


 
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I beg to differ sir! The scripture is clear that it is those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark that the above is to be applied to, which are the inhabitants of the earth. And that scripture demonstrates on-going punishment, not annihilation. Furthermore, Evil spirits/demons are not who is in view as those not worshiping the beast and receiving his mark.


Sorry but as per that verse no where does it indicate "inhabitants of earth" or which inhabitants of the earth. We would have to agree to disagree. As a matter of fact, the entire demonic plane of existence/world worships Satan as their God and they follow Him/darkness, and not The Light.
 

Vdp

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Nov 18, 2015
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Revelations 14:9-11
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, [SUP]10 [/SUP]he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

We do know all those who take the Mark of the Beast will be tormented forever and ever. Its not that big of a leap to believe all those in the Lake of Fire will also be tormented forever and forever.

Why is so hard to accept God punishment will last forever, never ending?
 
Apr 25, 2015
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I can agree with that, so what I have got to try to do is figure out which Christian minds the devil has infiltrated and operating through, this appears to be no easy task for people like me because it is so easy to interpret the Bible how anyone wants to, I have prayed about it recentley and in the past with a sincere heart and this type of praying method does not work for me, and I am being absolutely honest, it does not work, but to be absolutely honest I don't even know what I am supposed to do other than do research and see what others say, for me it is the only way to draw a conclusion about matters.
We are both temporal human beings on earth. And we know from the scriptures how it says, God is Love and how His love manifested on earth. If He loved us so much to be willing to die for us so that we can live and not perish, does that infer that those who do not get to hear and believe about His sacrifice, should be tortured for all eternity in Hell? That sounds insanely absurd and foolish of God. What about all human souls that lived before Christ came to earth? Would they ALL be tortured for all eternity? But, how if they didn't get to hear about Him right?

I believe God will judge every human soul- the believers out of their faith, and the unbelievers from their works.

As Romans 2:6 says: "God will repay each person according to what they have done"

Even today as of this 21st century there are many souls in many nations that are completely ignorant of Christ and His sacrificial death on the cross for the salvation of all mankind.

You are considerably older than me sir, and I do not wish to claim that I am wiser than you or anything. But I urge you to continue praying to Christ and address your concerns to him. Don't give up!


 
Apr 25, 2015
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Revelations 14:9-11
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, [SUP]10 [/SUP]he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

We do know all those who take the Mark of the Beast will be tormented forever and ever. Its not that big of a leap to believe all those in the Lake of Fire will also be tormented forever and forever.

Why is so hard to accept God punishment will last forever, never ending?
Do you know anybody/human soul that worships the beast and his image, and who has received the mark of his name?

What about all human souls that lived before Christ came to earth? Will they ALLLL be tortured for all eternity with no end in The Lake of Fire?
 

Vdp

Banned
Nov 18, 2015
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Actually Revelation 14 is talking about people, not about Demons.

Does any of this argument have anything to do with spreading the Gospel? Does anything about this argument have any bearing on those who have received Salvation and are Children of God?

You are arguing straw men!

If organicbeast wants to believe all those in the Lake of Fire will be destroyed then let him believe it. What he wants to believe will never effect us and how we walk with God. Its his Pride that has been hurt here and its his Pride that will keep him teaching this doctrine.