Hell. It is in the Bible isnt it?
- Thread starter MsSuzanna
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Yes, actually it does have to do with the gospel. It has to do with the distortion and dilution of the word of God. It has to do with the false teachings of every Biblical topic that are in the world today. It has to do with the truth and accuracy of God's word when the scriptures are blatantly ignored.
Hello VDP,
You are correct regarding the mark, for we are already seeing the technology for it. Click on the link below:
Swedish office staff offered implants to access facilities - BBC News
You are correct regarding the mark, for we are already seeing the technology for it. Click on the link below:
Swedish office staff offered implants to access facilities - BBC News
Ok, if it is talking about people/common man please feel free to point them out to me if that what you said holds true as of to this day.
You cannot preach the Gospel of Hope with eternal torture as a recompense if a person disagrees or is completely ignorant of Christ and His sacrifice.
You still haven't addressed what happens to ALLL those human souls that once lived before Christ came to earth. Torture them ALL for eternity too? Good for you brother. Keep it up!
It is not my pride that is hurt, but rather my soul that is enlightened here brother, regarding the TRUTH about Christ and the LIES about HIM also
You cannot preach the Gospel of Hope with eternal torture as a recompense if a person disagrees or is completely ignorant of Christ and His sacrifice.
You still haven't addressed what happens to ALLL those human souls that once lived before Christ came to earth. Torture them ALL for eternity too? Good for you brother. Keep it up!
It is not my pride that is hurt, but rather my soul that is enlightened here brother, regarding the TRUTH about Christ and the LIES about HIM also
My pleasure:
"Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people."
"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name"
There are thee angels which are said to be flying in midair and they follow one after another each having a different message to the inhabitants of the earth just as the scripture above demonstrates.
Every person who dies without faith has gone and will go into Hades where they are in torment in flame, just the rich man and will remain there until the great white throne judgment, which takes place at the end of the millennial period (Rev.20:111-15).
"Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people."
"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name"
There are thee angels which are said to be flying in midair and they follow one after another each having a different message to the inhabitants of the earth just as the scripture above demonstrates.
Every person who dies without faith has gone and will go into Hades where they are in torment in flame, just the rich man and will remain there until the great white throne judgment, which takes place at the end of the millennial period (Rev.20:111-15).
It's interesting you don't see Paul mention the doctrine of eternal torment.
Revelation is a prophetic book, it matches up with Ezekiel almost perfectly. Ezekiel foretold the fall of the first temple, Revelation foretells the fall of the 2nd temple.
Matt 24: These things will happen in YOUR generation (40 yrs). Temple fell in 70 AD. We know this is talking about the temple because Jesus said flee to the mountains of Judea. Who needed to flee? Christians in Jerusalem.
Why did NO Christians die when Rome sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the temple? Because when the abomination of desolation showed up they knew it was time to go.
“When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” Luke 21
Eternal torment? Matt 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
What about Gehenna? This Scripture is taken from Isaiah 66.
24“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Dead bodies.
That should cause you to reconsider the doctrine of eternal torment at least a little bit.
C.
Revelation is a prophetic book, it matches up with Ezekiel almost perfectly. Ezekiel foretold the fall of the first temple, Revelation foretells the fall of the 2nd temple.
Matt 24: These things will happen in YOUR generation (40 yrs). Temple fell in 70 AD. We know this is talking about the temple because Jesus said flee to the mountains of Judea. Who needed to flee? Christians in Jerusalem.
Why did NO Christians die when Rome sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the temple? Because when the abomination of desolation showed up they knew it was time to go.
“When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” Luke 21
Eternal torment? Matt 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
What about Gehenna? This Scripture is taken from Isaiah 66.
24“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Dead bodies.
That should cause you to reconsider the doctrine of eternal torment at least a little bit.
C.
How do you think the OT saints were saved? Their salvation was by faith, but it also had to be accompanied by the keeping of the Law. Regarding those prior to Christ, scripture says the following:
"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--"
Israel who fell in the desert died because of not having faith. Abraham was saved by having the same faith that we do, for he was credited with righteousness because he believed God. All believers throughout history are those nations that God said Abraham would be the father of. We who are having the same faith are the spiritual children of Abraham. And Christ was symbolic of that Rock out of which came living water.
"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--"
Israel who fell in the desert died because of not having faith. Abraham was saved by having the same faith that we do, for he was credited with righteousness because he believed God. All believers throughout history are those nations that God said Abraham would be the father of. We who are having the same faith are the spiritual children of Abraham. And Christ was symbolic of that Rock out of which came living water.
You are walking in Darkness organicbeast. The people of the O.T. had "I AM" to show them the Truth. You do know that "I AM" is the Son of God who today is Jesus?
God has been with us from the very beginning of time. Who do you think walked in the Garden with Adam? It was "I AM" who walked with Adam who is Jesus and who is with us today.
Could it be you have never accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior? Is this why your eyes are blinded to the Truth from the Holy Spirit?
No one who has accepted Jesus ever walks in blindness because we have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit who teaches us the Truth in the Scriptures.
God has been with us from the very beginning of time. Who do you think walked in the Garden with Adam? It was "I AM" who walked with Adam who is Jesus and who is with us today.
Could it be you have never accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior? Is this why your eyes are blinded to the Truth from the Holy Spirit?
No one who has accepted Jesus ever walks in blindness because we have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit who teaches us the Truth in the Scriptures.
Do you seem to think that Israel was the only nation living and existing at that time? Do you know countries like India and China existed for 5000 years? Looong before Christ physically came and was revealed to the earth.
Can you show me scriptures, where Israelites from the Old Testament traveled to other nations preaching the salvation of God and that of Christ?
You still don't make any sense. Sorry again
Can you show me scriptures, where Israelites from the Old Testament traveled to other nations preaching the salvation of God and that of Christ?
You still don't make any sense. Sorry again
My response to you is the same like that to Ahwatukee.
Do you seem to think that Israel was the only nation living and existing at that time? Do you know countries like India and China existed for 5000 years? Looong before Christ physically came and was revealed to the earth.
Can you show me scriptures, where Israelites from the Old Testament traveled to other nations preaching the salvation of God and that of Christ?
Do you seem to think that Israel was the only nation living and existing at that time? Do you know countries like India and China existed for 5000 years? Looong before Christ physically came and was revealed to the earth.
Can you show me scriptures, where Israelites from the Old Testament traveled to other nations preaching the salvation of God and that of Christ?
Do you seem to think that Israel was the only nation living and existing at that time? Do you know countries like India and China existed for 5000 years? Looong before Christ physically came and was revealed to the earth.
Can you show me scriptures, where Israelites from the Old Testament traveled to other nations preaching the salvation of God and that of Christ?
You still don't make any sense. Sorry again
Can you show me scriptures, where Israelites from the Old Testament traveled to other nations preaching the salvation of God and that of Christ?
You still don't make any sense. Sorry again
How about the countless Scriptures that show the wicked will be ashes?
As far as Scriptures that show believers eternally tormented? You have Gehenna which I explained, you have Lazarus PARABLE (which let's not make doctrines out of parables) and you have Revelation which I also explained.
The 2nd death is fire... but let's go further... Jesus said I come so that they would have ETERNAL LIFE and not PERISH... what is Perish - Eternal Death. Not eternal torment.
To Adam was told you shall surely DIE, not eternally torment. You think God would have made that clear to Adam?
How about when God says in the OT, I will by no means pardon the guilty, but the soul that sins shall DIE...
Souls are not eternal that's actually Greek thought not Scripture.
C.
As far as Scriptures that show believers eternally tormented? You have Gehenna which I explained, you have Lazarus PARABLE (which let's not make doctrines out of parables) and you have Revelation which I also explained.
The 2nd death is fire... but let's go further... Jesus said I come so that they would have ETERNAL LIFE and not PERISH... what is Perish - Eternal Death. Not eternal torment.
To Adam was told you shall surely DIE, not eternally torment. You think God would have made that clear to Adam?
How about when God says in the OT, I will by no means pardon the guilty, but the soul that sins shall DIE...
Souls are not eternal that's actually Greek thought not Scripture.
C.
How about the countless Scriptures that show the wicked will be ashes?
As far as Scriptures that show believers eternally tormented? You have Gehenna which I explained, you have Lazarus PARABLE (which let's not make doctrines out of parables) and you have Revelation which I also explained.
The 2nd death is fire... but let's go further... Jesus said I come so that they would have ETERNAL LIFE and not PERISH... what is Perish - Eternal Death. Not eternal torment.
To Adam was told you shall surely DIE, not eternally torment. You think God would have made that clear to Adam?
How about when God says in the OT, I will by no means pardon the guilty, but the soul that sins shall DIE...
Souls are not eternal that's actually Greek thought not Scripture.
C.
As far as Scriptures that show believers eternally tormented? You have Gehenna which I explained, you have Lazarus PARABLE (which let's not make doctrines out of parables) and you have Revelation which I also explained.
The 2nd death is fire... but let's go further... Jesus said I come so that they would have ETERNAL LIFE and not PERISH... what is Perish - Eternal Death. Not eternal torment.
To Adam was told you shall surely DIE, not eternally torment. You think God would have made that clear to Adam?
How about when God says in the OT, I will by no means pardon the guilty, but the soul that sins shall DIE...
Souls are not eternal that's actually Greek thought not Scripture.
C.
You are taking the very scripture that demonstrates conscious awareness after death and on-going punishment in flame and getting rid of it by calling it a parable and then saying "where's your proof?" You got rid of it! The rich man and Lazarus was a literal event that the Lord reveals to us. Parables are symbolism representing the literal. The rich man and Lazarus uses real names and the real location of Hades. It is not a parable.
"When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also."
The saints, referred to as "souls" in the scripture above are said to have been killed and are under the altar in heaven. They are carrying on a conversation with the Lord and they are give white robes to wear.
Yes the SOULS of saints are saved. That's the point of the gospel.
Death is the LAST enemy to go. Not a tool of God.
God is life.
Well at least you agree without the parable there is very little proof for the eternal torment doctrine. We're making progress.
Moving on: Lazarus isn't a parable????
The Random House College Dictionary describes a parable as “a short, allegorical story designed to convey a truth or moral lesson.”
Was Jesus teaching a lesson about hell? Does the context say, okay disciples, let me tell you about hell... No.
It's called an allegorical story, and Jesus Himself said He only spoke in PARABLES...
And if this was a doctrinal truth, you would see Paul mention certainly? But you don't.
You see "fiery indignation" which people assume is hell. But God is also an all consuming fire. And Holy Spirit is compared to tongues of fire. It sure appears "fire" can have multiple meanings in Scripture.
But I digress.
Okay so you think the following is true since Lazarus isn't a parable...
1. In Heaven you can see people burning alive in Hell with a small chasm between the two?
2. You think Lazarus would ask for a DROP of water on his tongue? While his entire body is burning?
3. You think people go to hell because they don't take care of the poor? That's what Jesus said about the rich man.
4. You believe people are in Abraham's Bosom in Heaven?
5. You believe people can hear the screams and torment over a chasm? So that people can talk to each other?
6. You believe that people have eyes, ears, and a tongue in heaven? What about their bodies still in the grave?
Obviously these are just a few questions that show this is a parable...
But what about the gospel?
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Death, not eternal torment.
What happens to the wicked?
Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”
Perish is being consumed into smoke, what consumes into smoke? The 2nd death, or the unquenchable fire, that I showed you in Isaiah 66. Does this fit with NT? Yes.
Jesus says I come that they may not perish, but have eternal life.
The ultimate fate of the wicked is: death.
“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: andthe day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.” Malachi 4:1.
“And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:3.
“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28.
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” 2 Peter 3:10.
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8.
But God doesn't love death, He is Life. Death is an enemy. So He who is Life, made a way for us to be One with Him. There is NO Eternal Life apart from Him. That's what people don't get. We have to be UNITED to Him, but this wasn't possible until Christ.
The Tabernacle is a picture of Christ. His flesh was the curtain that was torn in 2. So we could abide with Him and Him with us, eternally.
But apart from Him who is eternal life, souls die. As I explained earlier.
Behold, they shall be as stubble,
The fire shall burn them;
They shall not deliver themselves
From the power of the flame;
It shall not be a coal to be warmed by,
Nor a fire to sit before!
By the way, hell as outlined in Scripture isn't the lake of fire, because it is burnt up in the lake of fire as well.
Hell is a Latin word, but it's better translated Hades in Greek.
And Sheol is its Hebrew counterpart.
But the doctrine of eternal torment needs to have different translations to keep it's illusion. Do a word search on it.
C.
Death is the LAST enemy to go. Not a tool of God.
God is life.
Well at least you agree without the parable there is very little proof for the eternal torment doctrine. We're making progress.
Moving on: Lazarus isn't a parable????
The Random House College Dictionary describes a parable as “a short, allegorical story designed to convey a truth or moral lesson.”
Was Jesus teaching a lesson about hell? Does the context say, okay disciples, let me tell you about hell... No.
It's called an allegorical story, and Jesus Himself said He only spoke in PARABLES...
And if this was a doctrinal truth, you would see Paul mention certainly? But you don't.
You see "fiery indignation" which people assume is hell. But God is also an all consuming fire. And Holy Spirit is compared to tongues of fire. It sure appears "fire" can have multiple meanings in Scripture.
But I digress.
Okay so you think the following is true since Lazarus isn't a parable...
1. In Heaven you can see people burning alive in Hell with a small chasm between the two?
2. You think Lazarus would ask for a DROP of water on his tongue? While his entire body is burning?
3. You think people go to hell because they don't take care of the poor? That's what Jesus said about the rich man.
4. You believe people are in Abraham's Bosom in Heaven?
5. You believe people can hear the screams and torment over a chasm? So that people can talk to each other?
6. You believe that people have eyes, ears, and a tongue in heaven? What about their bodies still in the grave?
Obviously these are just a few questions that show this is a parable...
But what about the gospel?
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Death, not eternal torment.
What happens to the wicked?
Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”
Perish is being consumed into smoke, what consumes into smoke? The 2nd death, or the unquenchable fire, that I showed you in Isaiah 66. Does this fit with NT? Yes.
Jesus says I come that they may not perish, but have eternal life.
The ultimate fate of the wicked is: death.
“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: andthe day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.” Malachi 4:1.
“And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:3.
“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28.
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” 2 Peter 3:10.
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8.
But God doesn't love death, He is Life. Death is an enemy. So He who is Life, made a way for us to be One with Him. There is NO Eternal Life apart from Him. That's what people don't get. We have to be UNITED to Him, but this wasn't possible until Christ.
The Tabernacle is a picture of Christ. His flesh was the curtain that was torn in 2. So we could abide with Him and Him with us, eternally.
But apart from Him who is eternal life, souls die. As I explained earlier.
Behold, they shall be as stubble,
The fire shall burn them;
They shall not deliver themselves
From the power of the flame;
It shall not be a coal to be warmed by,
Nor a fire to sit before!
By the way, hell as outlined in Scripture isn't the lake of fire, because it is burnt up in the lake of fire as well.
Hell is a Latin word, but it's better translated Hades in Greek.
And Sheol is its Hebrew counterpart.
But the doctrine of eternal torment needs to have different translations to keep it's illusion. Do a word search on it.
C.
Last edited:
That is also what the point of the event of the rich man and Lazarus is about. It demonstrates that two people died, one righteous and the other unrighteous. Both died and the spirits/souls of both were found in two compartments of Sheol/Hades separated by a great chasm. Naturally, those who cling to the belief in annihilation are going to get rid of the rich and Lazarus as being a literal even because it destroys their belief of the spirit/soul being non-existent after death. Yet, we also have Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. Hey Moses! You're not supposed to be here! Don't you know that you are supposed to be asleep in the dust of the earth? Then we have Samuel of whom Saul employed the witch of Endor to call him up and Samuel said, "why have you called me up?" Then he told Saul, "this time tomorrow you and your son's will joint me in Sheol." How is it that Samuel, in his spirit, was talking with Saul, if the dead no nothing?
Jesus says.
1. Wicked shall perish and surely die.
2. Souls can be destroyed in hell.
3. He came so we would have life, but not perish.
I showed how Gehenna that Jesus talks about is taken directly from Isaiah 66, which is about dead bodies.
The punishment when first mentioned to Adam was also about death.
I showed how God says the soul that sins shall DIE. I've shown countless Scriptures that say the wicked shall be ashes.
And I've shown how Lazarus is a parable, since Jesus only spoke in Parables, and the overwhelming evidence of Scripture is that eternal punishment (not punishing) is death. Which coincidentally is the only place a person can go that life isn't at. Not eternal torment.
I could discuss how many early Christians historically believed in eternal destruction not torment. Until later on when it was considered heretical. I could discuss Hebrew thought before the NT came about. But I think the countless Scriptures I've shown and quoted should be enough. At this point, it would simply be arguing what the Scriptures say and I've never found that to be fruitful here.
C.
1. Wicked shall perish and surely die.
2. Souls can be destroyed in hell.
3. He came so we would have life, but not perish.
I showed how Gehenna that Jesus talks about is taken directly from Isaiah 66, which is about dead bodies.
The punishment when first mentioned to Adam was also about death.
I showed how God says the soul that sins shall DIE. I've shown countless Scriptures that say the wicked shall be ashes.
And I've shown how Lazarus is a parable, since Jesus only spoke in Parables, and the overwhelming evidence of Scripture is that eternal punishment (not punishing) is death. Which coincidentally is the only place a person can go that life isn't at. Not eternal torment.
I could discuss how many early Christians historically believed in eternal destruction not torment. Until later on when it was considered heretical. I could discuss Hebrew thought before the NT came about. But I think the countless Scriptures I've shown and quoted should be enough. At this point, it would simply be arguing what the Scriptures say and I've never found that to be fruitful here.
C.