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Is Eternal Security Conditional or Unconditional?
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JohnOne
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1 Corinthians 5:1 KJV It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1 Corinthians 5:13 KJV But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Matthew 13:49-51 KJV So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? ......................
Revelation 21:8 KJV But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers ( fornicators or sexually immoral ), and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
1 Corinthians 5:13 KJV But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Matthew 13:49-51 KJV So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? ......................
Revelation 21:8 KJV But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers ( fornicators or sexually immoral ), and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Very true...
This below is the word of God...is this true for us?..if so then all of us will not be in heaven because we have sinned. This is the word of God too.....
Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
Everything in the scriptures is truly stated but everything is a statement of ultimate truth. The reality of the finished work of Jesus is a higher truth and it trumps all others.
If we read scriptures without filtering them through the finished work of Christ - we will be mixing up the Old Covenant with the New Covenant and we will have a mess on our hands which manifests itself in people doing works-righteousness to "maintain" their salvation for going to heaven to be with the Lord.
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Palmoni37
Guest
Please forgive me, my second reply and fearful of overstepping any protocol but it seems this discussion is embarking on a very deep spiritual point, how does free will work in the plan of God? We are in His Image to be formed into the divine nature (2 Pet 1;4), God and Christ have freewill therefore man must have it to be in His image, the first requirement of love.
The paradox enters when God gives up His freewill over mankind, being voluntarily bound by His own law, Christ gives up His freewill because He does nothing of His own. (John 5) They both set an example they wish us to follow. Therefore the only decision we can rightly make is not to make a decision of our own! God chooses to keep His law, to be like Him (in His image) we keep our law because we want to not because we have to, writing the law in our hearts. Then when we do the same we become of His nature. When our law agrees with His law, it is the fulfillment of it. It is pictured by Abraham when he offers his promised seed Isaac back to God, we do the same, receive freewill and give it back to Him, like Christ.
That is how Christ makes us free, we are not free until we have truth. He takes away the sin and law so we are free to become of His nature. The Truth shall make you free. so were we truly free before we came to Christ?
The first time Adam uses freewill he sins. 'For in the day you DO eat', is that a prophecy or command? He became as God by using his freewill. (vs22) This begs the question, did it progress the divine plan or hinder it? Without Judas would we be christian? This is His plan and formation of the divine nature in us, through sin and redemption the divine plan emerges. (Rom 3:7) Jacob is loved and Esau before they did anything, what we call sin is part of the scheme. (Rom 9:9-13)
Sin and redemption is the forming (yatszar) or molding, Christ was slain from the beginning, this is not God's mistake, having created the wonderful universe and beautiful earth... it all went wrong! Israel, the Church, and all mankind are separated to be later reunited, this is predestined, the insecurity is temporary and our lesson. Our God through Christ knew the end from the beginning, He will not fail. The security is promised from the very start, but in pain the seed is brought forth and conceived. A creative process essential to His purpose with certain conclusion, otherwise He is not God.
Lord be with you all, yours, and His, in Him
The paradox enters when God gives up His freewill over mankind, being voluntarily bound by His own law, Christ gives up His freewill because He does nothing of His own. (John 5) They both set an example they wish us to follow. Therefore the only decision we can rightly make is not to make a decision of our own! God chooses to keep His law, to be like Him (in His image) we keep our law because we want to not because we have to, writing the law in our hearts. Then when we do the same we become of His nature. When our law agrees with His law, it is the fulfillment of it. It is pictured by Abraham when he offers his promised seed Isaac back to God, we do the same, receive freewill and give it back to Him, like Christ.
That is how Christ makes us free, we are not free until we have truth. He takes away the sin and law so we are free to become of His nature. The Truth shall make you free. so were we truly free before we came to Christ?
The first time Adam uses freewill he sins. 'For in the day you DO eat', is that a prophecy or command? He became as God by using his freewill. (vs22) This begs the question, did it progress the divine plan or hinder it? Without Judas would we be christian? This is His plan and formation of the divine nature in us, through sin and redemption the divine plan emerges. (Rom 3:7) Jacob is loved and Esau before they did anything, what we call sin is part of the scheme. (Rom 9:9-13)
Sin and redemption is the forming (yatszar) or molding, Christ was slain from the beginning, this is not God's mistake, having created the wonderful universe and beautiful earth... it all went wrong! Israel, the Church, and all mankind are separated to be later reunited, this is predestined, the insecurity is temporary and our lesson. Our God through Christ knew the end from the beginning, He will not fail. The security is promised from the very start, but in pain the seed is brought forth and conceived. A creative process essential to His purpose with certain conclusion, otherwise He is not God.
Lord be with you all, yours, and His, in Him
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[SUP][a][/SUP] nor sodomites, [SUP]10 [/SUP]nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Where did it say they stopped their sins, Then they were made right with God?
What is it to say that no one can do Christ's word, but an admission that one doesn't have saving faith?
I feared thee lord because thine word is too hard for me to do. Therefore, I did nothing with the faith you gavest me. Here, I return to you what is yours.
Oh thou wicked and slothful servant...
Oh thou wicked and slothful servant...
And yet..Paul says this man that he said to remove - he was still saved as Paul handed him over for the destruction of the flesh and his spirit was still saved.
1 Corinthians 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
And Revelation 21:8 are descriptions of unbelievers in Christ.
In your religion any Christian that had any fear as Rev 21:8 says - would be thrown into the lake of fire. This is absolutely foolishness of course.....
We need to interpret all scripture with other scripture or that text will con us.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
If one does not have saving faith, they are not saved,
thus the argument is mute..
That's a new scripture...where is that one located. Your one in green above.
I know where the wicked servant one is...so I'm not asking about that one.
Here is a great grace-based teaching on the lazy servant for those that are interested.
https://escapetoreality.org/2015/05/19/parable-of-the-talents-matthew-25/
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JohnOne
Guest
It doesn't say saved it says so that his spirit MAY BE saved. In others words he might come to salvation if he is handed over to satan.
1 Corinthians 5:5 KJV To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
I rest my case, these same people that teach this, teach a license to sin and that a WICKED person is saved but God's word says they go to the lake of fire. They teach a different Gospel.
Galatians 1:6-9 KJV I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
2 John 1:9-11 KJV Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
This is the law of Christ.
I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren, like thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them as I shall command him. And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in my name, I will take vengeance on him. Deuteronomy 18:18-19
And if anyone hears my words and does not guard [them], I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has one who judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken from myself, but the Father himself who sent me has commanded me what I should say and what I should speak. John 12:47-49
And if anyone hears my words and does not guard [them], I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has one who judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken from myself, but the Father himself who sent me has commanded me what I should say and what I should speak. John 12:47-49
Perfectly obeying Christ's law includes being cleansed when we stumble. So any man who has the will and faith can do GOD's word.
Destruction of the flesh is dying so how could he die and then be saved? No, the use of the term may is used in simple terms. For example I went to the bank so that I may give you some money.
No one is teaching a licence to sin..just the complete opposite. Grace teaches us how to live godly in this world.
What we are saying is that sin does not separate the New Covenant believer from Christ. We maintain that if the true gospel is being preached the people's sins will fall off like dead leaves on a tree.
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Scriptureplz
Guest
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John 15:3[SUP] - [/SUP]Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Jesus spoke these words to His disciples. He was telling them they were already "clean" (saved) by the word he had spoken to them. He had testified to them that He was the Son of God, the Messiah that had come to save the world and the had believed it. There was no lifelong test of obedience for them to complete, they had already been saved by believing He was the Messiah, the Christ.
The verb saved in that verse is in the subjunctive mood, which indicates possibility, but not certainty.
You posted before that Jesus' words and commands were not a part of the NT but OT, so that proves you are trying to "filter" out all parts that call for an obedient walk of faith. And by the way, no one here in these forums is preaching we are justified and saved by "our own self righteous works". But this is the straw man you and your group keep trying to prop up constantly against those who disagree with your "filtered" out doctrine.
You talk about others trying to slander and bring false accusations against you and the Hyper grace movement, but you are one of the worst ones who constantly tries to suggest that those who believe in an obedient walk of faith are preaching either "legalism" or "works Salvationism" or DIY "self righteousness" which is nothing more than slander and false accusations directed toward us. You judge others of what you yourself practice on a regular basis, but now you have been warned.
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JohnOne
Guest
What Paul said is clear to that his spirit MAY BE saved. Jesus Christs words say the wicked go to the lake of fire. Your saying a wicked person is saved and doesn't go to the lake of fire. Hmmm rocket science 101. Your teaching a different gospel.
Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Revelation 21:8 KJV But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, andwhoremongers ( fornicators or sexually immoral ), and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Here is the gospel that Paul preached. In 1 Corinthians the people were going to the temple prostitutes for sex, getting drunk at communion, taking each other to court, in constant division and strife with each other, not walkinjg in love with the poor people in their midst..etc
What did Paul say to them?..you are not saved now going to go to heaven. NO..the complete opposite was said by Paul.
Paul still called those people "saints"....(I know this violates some people's religion )
Paul told them who they were in Christ..then corrected their behavior..he didn't say you were all unsaved now..
..he told them who they were in Christ...saints..they have His righteousness, holiness..etc.
The answer to behavior issues is to tell them who they really are in Christ now and then His live will change them
[SUP]2 [/SUP] To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
[SUP]4 [/SUP] I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Corinthians 1:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
The subjunctive in Greek in some cases is used because a "dependent clause" has been made. In this case - "handing over for the destruction of the flesh" - this is the dependent clause.
Here is an example = " I went to the bank so that I may give you some money." - going to the bank was the "dependent clause"
Here is the resource for this: ( I realize this conflicts with some religious beliefs )
The subjunctive mood is used in both independent (main) and depended (subordinate) clauses
More Detailed Use of the Greek Subjunctive Mood - Framed View
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
1. Nothing in that passage says what you claim being cleansed every time we stumble)
2. Is says the truth, Jesus did not come to judge, but to save (so why are you judging? When even christ did not judge)
3. It says clearly, only those who reject christ will be condemned. Nothing about those who recieve Christ in faith.
so what do they say about three strikes?
You posted before that Jesus' words and commands were not a part of the NT but OT, so that proves you are trying to "filter" out all parts that call for an obedient walk of faith. And by the way, no one here in these forums is preaching we are justified and saved by "our own self righteous works". But this is the straw man you and your group keep trying to prop up constantly against those who disagree with your "filtered" out doctrine.
You talk about others trying to slander and bring false accusations against you and the Hyper grace movement, but you are one of the worst ones who constantly tries to suggest that those who believe in an obedient walk of faith are preaching either "legalism" or "works Salvationism" or DIY "self righteousness" which is nothing more than slander and false accusations directed toward us. You judge others of what you yourself practice on a regular basis, but now you have been warned.
If people identify themselves with doing D.I.Y self-works righteousness when it is being exposed in the light of the gospel of the grace of Christ - that is their own business. I never accused specific people of doing that. That is the difference.
It's like the story of Jesus telling about the self-righteous Pharisee that says his own works are good and the tax collector that says he needs God. If people identify with the Pharisee in the story - then that is between them and the Lord.
Here is what I say about obedience for believers in Christ.
Obedience is a fruit of the life of Christ in our inner man. It is not the root. It's the love of God manifesting Himself in and through us to a hurt and dying world and to our fellow brethren.
We obey our Lord and Father because we know Him and trust in His character and obedience is not a set of rules, but a love-trust relationship. When you know the love of God for us we will obey Him naturally and effortlessly.
I maintain that obedience is a fruit of the life of Christ in our inner man that is created in Christ. When we teach the grace of God this enables us to bear His fruit in and through us.
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