Is Eternal Security Conditional or Unconditional?

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I can't abide Joseph Prince, or other Word Faith teachers, so does that make me ok in the eyes of whoever wrote this? I got my information on soteriology first from the Bible. Then, in seminary, in theology, we learned about all the different kinds of soteriology.

Um, From what I've read, you seem to align with Free Grace somewhat. So that would fall outside the bounds of orthodoxy that this person embraces.

 

[mailmandan]

Belief without obedience would be some other way.

Belief without obedience is not genuine belief, but is an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14-20). Seeking salvation by works through attempted obedience without genuine saving faith in Christ is the more common "some other way."

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Belief without obedience is not genuine belief, but is an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14-20). Seeking salvation by works through attempted obedience without genuine saving faith in Christ is the more common "some other way."

Nowadays I wouldn't say that way is more common, but it definitely is the other side of the coin.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

We don't abide in sin because we are in Christ - our inner man is created in righteousness and holiness and as John says in 1 John 3:9 and 5:18 - the one born of God cannot sin - not once nor a million times. It is sealed by the Holy spirit from the flesh. All sin is done in the flesh.

There is more of that split personality doctrine, did you also learn that from the escape from reality web site too? The spirit that is on the inside causes the works to be performed on the outside. But you have been brainwashed into believing there is no connection between what is going on between the heart and mind, and the outward works being performed in the body. And that when you sin, it was not you who really sinned, but your body that sinned. LOL Therefore you believe your insides are still clean, even when you sin outwardly.

That my friend is nothing more than voo-doo doctrine and a state of self delusion, and it is also a way of self justification for ongoing sin being performed outwardly on a regular basis because you believe you are still golden on the insides.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

This one with HRFTD also,

Gal 5:19-21 Is speaking of living after the flesh where Paul states to the contrary Paul saying, I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God

Yeah, but they deny they said such things, even when you show them the proof. They should be in politics, they flip flop their words and views like a lively fish on hot pavement.

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead

“Anything goes” antinomianism could be also expressed as libertine antinomianism if one is speaking of the variety that says the Christian cannot really sin regardless of what they do. This was common among some of the Gnostics.

The kind of Antinomianism we see more of in our day (beginning with the “Free Grace” movement of Zane Hodges et al. and morphing just a bit in the newer form as seen in teachers such as Joseph Prince) is essentially Sandemanian Antinomianism (a heresy associated with an eighteenth century movement) rather than libertine Antinomianism.

Sandemanianism did not directly say that anything goes in the sense that anything was approved of but just said that everyone was OK who gave mental assent to the gospel. Thus, those who made a profession could live as they pleased even though the leaders did not necessarily endorse this behavior. It is still “anything goes” as regards salvation even if the teachers and leaders profess not to endorse sin.

Joseph Prince has embraced this by espousing unconditional security without the need for the perseverance of the saints. This semi-Calvinist view is an unorthodox one that gives comfort to those who have never evidenced a changed life (Prince even asserts that repentance does not involve a turning from sin). I have spoken to a homosexual follower of Prince who acknowledged what the Bible said about his lifestyle. He was not concerned, however, because he was sure God saw it as no big deal in spite of what the Bible said.

One of the chief characteristics of the new Antinomianism as it has developed in the 21st century is that it insists that we must never speak of do’s and don’ts and can never use words such as “should” or “ought.” All of life must be subjective spontaneity and those who offer any word of exhortation (such as those found in the NT) are presenting a “legalistic ministration of death.”

Relativism and Antinomianism: It's Mostly About Sex | Apologetics Index

I do often wonder where some people get their information, so thanks for posting this link.

I can't abide Joseph Prince, or other Word Faith teachers, so does that make me ok in the eyes of whoever wrote this? I got my information on soteriology first from the Bible. Then, in seminary, in theology, we learned about all the different kinds of soteriology.

Yes, that is right- all the kinds. Because there are more than just Armininans and Calvinists. In fact, there are those who believe in eternal security, who definitely preach sin, and believe that Jesus died for their sin. Just like the Bible says!

And for me personally, I am always aware of the New Testament sin lists. I have sinned since I was saved, but God also showed me my sin, which meant I was required to repent. As many times as it took. And I am sure I will keep on sinning, till Jesus appears, or I die.

So that is the big difference between me and an Arminian. I believe that the only way to overcome sin, is to walk with Jesus. And the Holy Spirit leads and guides us into repentance. Otherwise, what would be the point of the Holy Spirit being in our hearts, and writing the law on our hearts? If we could become sinless of our own accord, the Holy Spirit could just touch us briefly and then be gone.

Instead, the promise of the Holy Spirit is for our entire lives. And for me, that is a very good thing. Just like I couldn't save myself, I cannot sancitify myself.

I have said this over and over - please do not confuse justification with sanctification. Justification starts our journey with Christ, sanctification continues our journey with Christ and glorification is reserved for when we return.

It seems like people here in this thread do not understand that our entire walk with Christ is our sanctification. We are justified by God. (See Romans 5:1 and the word "justify" in the Aorist passive.) Then the same God sanctifies us!

But then, I have written about this over and over, and some people still don't get what I have written. But then, some people have me on ignore, so they are not able to read what I have written.

It's a strange thing to me. I was contemplating how so many have others on ignore for what they believe. They continue to argue in thread after thread, but they are not reading, discussing, refuting what those on ignore have said. I guess that is a mystery to me!

Feel free to explain how you can properly discuss when you have half the forum on ignore. (I'm hoping someone is reading this and can give the message to their friends.)

Well said...

I don't ascribe to everything any teacher teaches either. no matter who they are. I doubt in 10 years I will believe the same things I do now as I grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord. One thing I am solid on is the gospel of the grace of Christ alone for salvation.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

There is more of that split personality doctrine, did you also learn that from the escape from reality web site too? The spirit that is on the inside causes the works to be performed on the outside. But you have been brainwashed into believing there is no connection between[/B] what is going on between the heart and mind, and the outward works being performed in the body. And that when you sin, it was not you who really sinned, but your body that sinned. LOL Therefore you believe your insides are still clean, even when you sin outwardly.

That my friend is nothing more than voo-doo doctrine and a state of self delusion, and it is also a way of self justification for ongoing sin being performed outwardly on a regular basis because you believe you are still golden on the insides.

Here was my take on their dissociative identity faith (that I made a while back):

Hyper grace believers don't believe that it's possible to walk in righteousness with a consciousness of their sin nature, and the concomitant imperative to overcome it. Thus their need for methods to dissociate from what they call sin-consciousness, which essentially means ignoring the voice of the conscience.

This they do by considering the flesh and the body to be separate and distinct. In other words, mental separation is made between the flesh and the body, which allows for the belief that the body is sinless. The sinful flesh, then, simply becomes an idea that is compartmentalized in the mind and discarded (ignored, denied) because it is the old man that was crucified and no longer exists. This process of denying the existence of sinful flesh and identifying only with the incorruptible spirit and sinless body is what hyper grace believers call the renewing of the mind.

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament has a good description of this mental dissociation process in which a person only identifies with what they want to be (their identity as the righteousness of GOD), and blots out any consciousness or idea contrary to it (their sin nature).

f. Gnosticism offers a radical solution to the conflict of conscience. It is true that instances are very sparse. But the basic dualistic solution involves a full separation between the two egos. The true I of the Gnostic is identical with the divine world of light, while the other I belongs to the chaotic world and is thus to be abandoned. In the final analysis, then, there is no bad conscience for the Gnostic. Naturally this opens the door not merely to asceticism but also to libertinism.​

Paul talks about the two 'I's mentioned above in Romans 7-8, in which victory is found, not through denial of the sinful flesh's existence, but through not obeying it in grace through faith.​

 

[Grace777x70]

Yeah, but they deny they said such things, even when you show them the proof. They should be in politics, they flip flop their words and views like a lively fish on hot pavement.

This is absolutely false and is slander..as I have not denied this..in fact I say that sin cannot make a true believer in Christ lose their salvation and I stick to that truth and back it up with scripture too.

See post #351 and Post #357

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-18.html#post2632671

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Here. Let me repost this because it is highly relevant, and some folks may have missed it. Essentially, saying behavior doesn't matter to salvation is in effect the same thing as saying do whatever you want.

The kind of Antinomianism we see more of in our day (beginning with the “Free Grace” movement of Zane Hodges et al. and morphing just a bit in the newer form as seen in teachers such as Joseph Prince) is essentially Sandemanian Antinomianism (a heresy associated with an eighteenth century movement) rather than libertine Antinomianism.

Sandemanianism did not directly say that anything goes in the sense that anything was approved of but just said that everyone was OK who gave mental assent to the gospel. Thus, those who made a profession could live as they pleased even though the leaders did not necessarily endorse this behavior. It is still “anything goes” as regards salvation even if the teachers and leaders profess not to endorse sin.

Joseph Prince has embraced this by espousing unconditional security without the need for the perseverance of the saints. This semi-Calvinist view is an unorthodox one that gives comfort to those who have never evidenced a changed life (Prince even asserts that repentance does not involve a turning from sin). I have spoken to a homosexual follower of Prince who acknowledged what the Bible said about his lifestyle. He was not concerned, however, because he was sure God saw it as no big deal in spite of what the Bible said.

One of the chief characteristics of the new Antinomianism as it has developed in the 21st century is that it insists that we must never speak of do’s and don’ts and can never use words such as “should” or “ought.” All of life must be subjective spontaneity and those who offer any word of exhortation (such as those found in the NT) are presenting a “legalistic ministration of death.”​

Yeah, it's a very slippery and very subtle doctrine but the elect will not be fooled by it.

 

[Grace777x70]

There is more of that split personality doctrine, did you also learn that from the escape from reality web site too? The spirit that is on the inside causes the works to be performed on the outside. But you have been brainwashed into believing there is no connection between what is going on between the heart and mind, and the outward works being performed in the body. And that when you sin, it was not you who really sinned, but your body that sinned. LOL Therefore you believe your insides are still clean, even when you sin outwardly.

That my friend is nothing more than voo-doo doctrine and a state of self delusion, and it is also a way of self justification for ongoing sin being performed outwardly on a regular basis because you believe you are still golden on the insides.

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.


The inner man created in Christ cannot sin as John shows us. Cannot sin once..let alone a thousand times. If we don't understand the new creation in Christ and that the flesh is separated from the inner man in Christ by the circumcision of the Spirit - we will err in a lot of the New Covenant truths.

1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. ( He who keeps us is Jesus in our inner man - the new creation in Christ )

 

[Grace777x70]

There is more of that split personality doctrine, did you also learn that from the escape from reality web site too? The spirit that is on the inside causes the works to be performed on the outside. But you have been brainwashed into believing there is no connection between what is going on between the heart and mind, and the outward works being performed in the body. And that when you sin, it was not you who really sinned, but your body that sinned. LOL Therefore you believe your insides are still clean, even when you sin outwardly.

That my friend is nothing more than voo-doo doctrine and a state of self delusion, and it is also a way of self justification for ongoing sin being performed outwardly on a regular basis because you believe you are still golden on the insides.

Here is what this "voodoo" has done for me...

This is my testimony of what the gospel of the grace of Christ has done in my life:

I have a great passion for Christ!..here is what knowing Him because of the revelation of the gospel of the grace of Christ has done for me.

I was praying one morning and thinking about how the grace of Christ has affected me. I had the scripture come up in my spirit where the Pharisees were arguing about whether a man was born blind or not after Jesus healed him. Of course the Pharisees were trying to discredit the message of Jesus. The man said.." All I know is that I was born blind but now I see."

This is what the gospel of the grace of Christ has done in my life:

I realize that these beliefs in the grace of God....especially the acceptance grace and the total forgiveness that Jesus bought and paid for with His blood....that these can be offensive to our religious beliefs and what we have been taught in church. ( they were initially to me as well )

This gospel of the wondrous grace of Christ has had a beautiful affect on me. I am more in love with Jesus and the Father more then ever....in love with studying His word....praying in the spirit constantly with a heart full of joy!

This gospel has given me a compassion for other people and to reach out in love to them. To give more than I ever have with a heart full of love.

To live a holier life in Him...to be a witness of the life and love of our Lord in me.

If these are the horrible fruit of the grace of Christ in me....I want more!.....give me more grace please my Lord and God!


I am living a much fuller life now, more deeply in love with Jesus and the Father then ever before or ever dreamed was possible and I am just starting.

I am free from the horrible religion of self-effort, having the love of God pour out in me to help others now that I understand the grace that is in Christ then I did when I was doing the self-performance based gospel ( which is not the gospel )

I was blind but now I see. I see Jesus and His finished work for me!

It will always be in eternity "Worthy is the Lamb"..

it will never be.."Worthy is the Lamb......and me..because I did my own D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness to help Jesus out"

It has always been about Jesus and Him alone and it will always remain that way for all eternity.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Yeah, but they deny they said such things, even when you show them the proof. They should be in politics, they flip flop their words and views like a lively fish on hot pavement.

Thats why I followed up after, because you might post something, where its explained away but the other post coming up after it shows to the contrary, you are correct it flip flops just like that. Its predictable is why you dont post both things together, use the scapegoat one second up (not first up). Helps to show it better if you are able to.

Then save them

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

This is absolutely false and is slander..as I have not denied this..in fact I say that sin cannot make a true believer in Christ lose their salvation and I stick to that truth and back it up with scripture too.

See post #351 and Post #357

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...conditional-unconditional-18.html#post2632671

So you flip flopped again. Was that from the outer you, or the inner you? Maybe the 2 you's are conflicted?

 

[Grace777x70]

So you flip flopped again. Was that from the outer you, or the inner you? Maybe the 2 you's are conflicted?

The truth of what I said is all out in the open for all to see and it is consistent. You don't have to agree with it but you do have to stop the slander...I thank you for your efforts in stopping this kind of behavior.

I would appreciate it if your behavior would reflect who you are in Christ in this matter...God bless you...and have a good night.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The truth of what I said is all out in the open for all to see and it is consistent. You don't have to agree with it but you do have to stop the slander...I thank you for your efforts in stopping this kind of behavior.

I would appreciate it if your behavior would reflect who you are in Christ in this matter...God bless you...and have a good night.

Good night to you, and to you 2. Peace

 

[Angela53510]

Um, From what I've read, you seem to align with Free Grace somewhat. So that would fall outside the bounds of orthodoxy that this person embraces.

I don't really follow Internet theology. I tend to prefer the old labels. You know, the ones you find in scholarly books and articles. But I do thank you for explaining what you think I believe according to your theology. Personally, my desire is to know Christ and him crucified.

"For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." 1 Cor. 2:2

As to sin:

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Romans 5:1

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." 2 Cor. 5:17.

And yes, I do know those verses very well in context, and they do stand alone!

 

[Gr8grace]

I don't really follow Internet theology. I tend to prefer the old labels. You know, the ones you find in scholarly books and articles. But I do thank you for explaining what you think I believe according to your theology. Personally, my desire is to know Christ and him crucified.

"For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." 1 Cor. 2:2

As to sin:

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Romans 5:1

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." 2 Cor. 5:17.

And yes, I do know those verses very well in context, and they do stand alone!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Angela53510 again.

 

[Chester]

Case rejected. Why should Paul being 'disapproved' mean that he was no longer saved? It meant that he had lost his reward.

On a different post I have tried to point out that I have not found a verse (nor have been shown a verse yet) that proves eternal security.

In fairness I would like to point out here that I do not think I Cor. 9:27 by itself can be used as a prooftext that a person can backslide and lose his salvation.

What does a "castaway" mean? castaway from salvation? or cast out of fellowship? In all fairness, this text does not say.

The answer must come from a careful analysis of the context and from other Scriptural themes and principles.

 

[PurerInHeart]

The word "IF" is conditional, therefore eternal life is conditional.

 

[vic1980]

If anyone believes, they can walk in the Flesh and think there going to heaven they have deny what Holy scripture teaches. It is clear they are not Born again, your not a new creature in Christ.

Romans 8

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Control by the Spirit

Let us examine this carefully

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Shalom