Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

[RickyZ]

Why do you guys dig up old threads and bicker?

Roger and I go way back. I've been trying for some time to show him the errors of his beliefs. I figure the best way to illustrate it is by directly comparing the word of God to comments he has made in the past.

Peaceful, the premise is that Roger doesn't believe in God performing miracles thru the gifts of the spirit, in contrast with the quoted scriptures. Too, I made the argument that one test of the spirits is whether the gift/miracle glorifies God, Roger says that glorifying God is not part of that testing.


Sorry to disrupt the thread with this but I do believe that Roger's spiritual welfare is highly at stake here and I want to do all I can to help him see that.


But, there are none so blind as they who will not see.

 

[notuptome]

So then, I'll add your comment about "false premise of miracles and wonders" to your list of quotes that directly oppose God's word.

And I suppose I should stop here, because with every attempt to correct and educate you, you sink deeper into unforgiveable blaspheme.

I worry about you, Roger, I really really do.

They may contradict your interpretation but they do not violate the integrity of the scriptures.

Why does the word of God offend you?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickyZ]

The word of God does not offend me. I cling to every word of it.

Why is the word of God fallacy and falsehoods to you?

 

[notuptome]

Here you go, Roger. Added to the list of your conflicts with the word of God:

********

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Originally Posted by notuptome :
Have you been seduced by the false premise of miracles and wonders?
Roger


********


(Upon discussion that the true gifts will in the end glorify God)

Matthew 9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marveled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

1Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed! And no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit

1 John 4:4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God.

Matthew 7: 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.

Originally Posted by notuptome :
We test the spirits … not by what we believe to be the outcome
Roger

Only God can change you. As long as you cling to your self will you will remain estranged from God.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Roger and I go way back. I've been trying for some time to show him the errors of his beliefs. I figure the best way to illustrate it is by directly comparing the word of God to comments he has made in the past.

Peaceful, the premise is that Roger doesn't believe in God performing miracles thru the gifts of the spirit, in contrast with the quoted scriptures. Too, I made the argument that one test of the spirits is whether the gift/miracle glorifies God, Roger says that glorifying God is not part of that testing.

Sorry to disrupt the thread with this but I do believe that Roger's spiritual welfare is highly at stake here and I want to do all I can to help him see that.

But, there are none so blind as they who will not see.

Thanks for your response and clarification, RickyZ.

I think it's best if I steer clear of conversations such as these--often I get a sick feeling in my stomach and rarely do I see brothers reaching a point of agreement, encouragement, and building each other up... here on CC.

It's amazing, to me, how two people can read the same passage and draw (seemingly) completely different conclusions!

 

[notuptome]

The word of God does not offend me. I cling to every word of it.

Why is the word of God fallacy and falsehoods to you?

It certainly seems to do just that. You cannot endure anything taken from the scriptures without turning it to your corrupted Pentecostal doctrine.

Christianity is all about Christ and nothing about man. Pentecostals and charismatics make it al about them and discard the preeminence of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Thanks for your response and clarification, RickyZ.

I think it's best if I steer clear of conversations such as these--often I get a sick feeling in my stomach and rarely do I see brothers reaching a point of agreement, encouragement, and building each other up... here on CC.

It's amazing, to me, how two people can read the same passage and draw (seemingly) completely different conclusions!

What would expect?

2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[valiant]

The people in Acts 8: 14, were already saved, [Born again of the Spirit], They had received the word of God got saved and was baptised in water, Vs 14--16. Then they were baptised in the Holy Ghost in v17.

As they were a special case, not receiving the Spirit until the Apostles came, thus endorsing the reception of Samaritans, it cannot be used as a example of the norm. Incidentally it does not mention baptism in the Spirit..

And Saul, [Paul] was saved, [Born again of the Spirit], Acts 9: 6. He surrendered his will to God, V6. He had a vision, v12.
Ananias called Him, "Brother Saul". Then he received the baptism in the Holy Ghost, v17.

it does not mention baptism of the Spirit. He was filled

The disciples in Acts 19: 2-6, were saved for who knows how long, but they didn't receive the baptism in the Holy Ghost until Paul laid his hands on them, V 6.

they were not Christian disciples but disciples of John. They were not 'saved' men by the normal Christian standards. and they were not said to be 'baptised in Holy Spirit'.

as always with your type you assume what you should prove.

Please note, Paul called them believers, V2, And Paul should know,

believers in John's baptism, yes. but they had not even HEARD of the Holy Spirit.

Plus, Paul knew there was a separate experience to the rebirth, otherwise why would he say, "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed", If there was only one experience, Paul would have know they had received the Holy Ghost.

He does not say they had experienced rebirth. Indeed he recognised their LACK

Some of the disciples were born again in Jn 20: 22, but they wasn't baptised in the Holy Ghost until Acts 2.
Two different experiences.

but that was BEFORE baptism in the Spirit was given

Jesus had already revealed His plan for all people.
Believers will speak in tongues, [Have the baptism in the Holy Ghost]. Mk 16: 17. Lk 24: 49.Jn 7: 37--39. Acts 1: 4--5.

none of the verse mention baptism in the Spirit except Acts1.4-5 which refers to the uniqueness of Pentecost. Speaking in tongues is NEVER directly connected with it.

The Baptism in the Holy Ghost isn't just to get people saved, [Although it does give us the power to be a witness] Acts 1: 8.
It's so we can do the same works as Jesus, Jn 14: 12, And we have the same Holy Ghost, Jn 14: 16--17.

Baptism in the Spirit DOES save after Pentecost. 'In one spirit we are all baptised into one body.' That is baptism in the Spirit. It is the fulfilment of the promises in Matth 3; Lke 3.

The phrase 'baptism in the Holy Spirit' is only used in connection with John's baptism with that one exception. It thus gains its meaning from that usage. You take it out of context and give it a meaning that it does not have in Scripture,.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

What would expect?

2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Let me rephrase: It's amazing, to me, how two SELF-PROCLAIMED CHRISTIANS can read the same passage and draw (seemingly) completely different conclusions!

It's further amazing, how SELF-PROCLAIMED CHRISTIANS will imply that others are not of Christ's flock(s).

 

[notuptome]

Let me rephrase: It's amazing, to me, how two SELF-PROCLAIMED CHRISTIANS can read the same passage and draw (seemingly) completely different conclusions!

That's simple. Some read into the scripture what they want it to say when they should read out of the scripture what God has said.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

That's simple. Some read into the scripture what they want it to say when they should read out of the scripture what God has said.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

When there is confusion, how are we to discern what God said and what God didn't say?

 

[popeye]

What would expect?

2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

There are only 2 powers. 1)Jesus,2)the devil

The devil CAN NOT answer a prayer to Jesus.

mat 7;6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

luke 11;11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
14 And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered.
15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.
16 And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.
17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.
18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

See that? Your primise you have been taught is WITHOUT MERIT.

Jesus even SHOWED YOU ,that that premise is hogwash.

Here it is again from a different angle;
mark 3;24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Again the ENTIRE BASIS for your premise is destroyed.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

As they were a special case, not receiving the Spirit until the Apostles came, thus endorsing the reception of Samaritans, it cannot be used as a example of the norm. Incidentally it does not mention baptism in the Spirit..



it does not mention baptism of the Spirit. He was filled



they were not Christian disciples but disciples of John. They were not 'saved' men by the normal Christian standards. and they were not said to be 'baptised in Holy Spirit'.

as always with your type you assume what you should prove.




believers in John's baptism, yes. but they had not even HEARD of the Holy Spirit.



He does not say they had experienced rebirth. Indeed he recognised their LACK



but that was BEFORE baptism in the Spirit was given



none of the verse mention baptism in the Spirit except Acts1.4-5 which refers to the uniqueness of Pentecost. Speaking in tongues is NEVER directly connected with it.



Baptism in the Spirit DOES save after Pentecost. 'In one spirit we are all baptised into one body.' That is baptism in the Spirit. It is the fulfilment of the promises in Matth 3; Lke 3.

The phrase 'baptism in the Holy Spirit' is only used in connection with John's baptism with that one exception. It thus gains its meaning from that usage. You take it out of context and give it a meaning that it does not have in Scripture,.

[FONT=Droid Serif, Georgia, Times New Roman, serif]A man with an experience is never at the mercy of an argument. You see those who have experienced the baptism of the Spirit with Fire and have received the Power of God are at a clear advantage when it comes to understanding being born again of the Spirit. Jesus Christ was very clear on this in Mark 16:17. All born again believers have received the power of God to be able to perform those gifts of the Spirit. It is obvious that people who have never experienced being born again of the Spirit will come up with personal doctrines where they explain this away by injecting their own ideas into their personal interpretation of the written Word. This is called eisegesis.

[/FONT]Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]of the [/FONT]Spirit[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[/FONT]

 

[popeye]

When there is confusion, how are we to discern what God said and what God didn't say?

Jesus himself answered that.
He was accused of a DIFFERENT POWER operating in him.

Roger has been sold a load of hogwash big time

 

[popeye]

A man with an experience is never at the mercy of an argument. You see those who have experienced the baptism of the Spirit with Fire and have received the Power of God are at a clear advantage when it comes to understanding being born again of the Spirit. Jesus Christ was very clear on this in Mark 16:17. All born again believers have received the power of God to be able to perform those gifts of the Spirit. It is obvious that people who have never experienced being born again of the Spirit will come up with personal doctrines where they explain this away by injecting their own ideas into their personal interpretation of the written Word. This is called eisegesis.

Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Exactly.

They are promoting REVERSE REASONING from their mind.

How do we know our EXPERIEBCE is from God?

2 ways

1) the witness. We know God therefore we know his presence.

2) his written testimony,his WORD.

If these 2 witnesses from heaven agree with my EXPERIENCE,no man is allowed to disenfranchise the work of God.

 

[popeye]

that is your opinion and I did not see any biblical reference to your position . Nor do I see anything that would prove God The Holy Spirit doesn't use the Gifts HE the Holy Spirit equips the be;liver with. I think there is a reason why they are called the " gifts of the Holy Spirit found in 1cor chapter 12, 13, 14 .

There is miracles in almost every chapter of the book of acts.

It even says "and great miracles were done at the hands of the apostles".

You seem to think the opposite.

The only way to that conclusion is to literally cut that bible up and throw out the power of God.

 

[valiant]

A man with an experience is never at the mercy of an argument.

But an experience of WHAT?

You see those who have experienced the baptism of the Spirit with Fire and have received the Power of God are at a clear advantage when it comes to understanding being born again of the Spirit.

you have had an 'experience'. I have proved from the word it is not what the Bible calls a 'baptism in the Holy Spirit'

Jesus Christ was very clear on this in Mark 16:17. All born again believers have received the power of God to be able to perform those gifts of the Spirit.

it is questionable whether Mark 16.17 is Scripture.

It is obvious that people who have never experienced being born again of the Spirit will come up with personal doctrines where they explain this away by injecting their own ideas into their personal interpretation of the written Word. This is called eisegesis.

Eisegesis is precisely what you did. You did not treat the Scriptures rightly,

Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation.

Correct, so get yourself right!

Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.

I exegeted, you eisegeted,

John 3:4

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

soooo? The rebirth by water, even of the Spirit (Isaiah 44.1-5), is the same as being baptised in the Spirit.

 

[popeye]

That's simple. Some read into the scripture what they want it to say when they should read out of the scripture what God has said.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I challenge you to open the bible and DILIGENTLY study the verses you say are defunct.

ask yourself "what if it really is true....Jesus is still working miracles?"

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by valiant

As they were a special case, not receiving the Spirit until the Apostles came, thus endorsing the reception of Samaritans, it cannot be used as a example of the norm. Incidentally it does not mention baptism in the Spirit..



it does not mention baptism of the Spirit. He was filled



they were not Christian disciples but disciples of John. They were not 'saved' men by the normal Christian standards. and they were not said to be 'baptised in Holy Spirit'.

as always with your type you assume what you should prove.




believers in John's baptism, yes. but they had not even HEARD of the Holy Spirit.



He does not say they had experienced rebirth. Indeed he recognised their LACK



but that was BEFORE baptism in the Spirit was given



none of the verse mention baptism in the Spirit except Acts1.4-5 which refers to the uniqueness of Pentecost. Speaking in tongues is NEVER directly connected with it.



Baptism in the Spirit DOES save after Pentecost. 'In one spirit we are all baptised into one body.' That is baptism in the Spirit. It is the fulfilment of the promises in Matth 3; Lke 3.

The phrase 'baptism in the Holy Spirit' is only used in connection with John's baptism with that one exception. It thus gains its meaning from that usage. You take it out of context and give it a meaning that it does not have in Scripture,.

Call it what you want mr cliche oriented believer.

It is in fact the second work AFTER SALVATION backed up by the word.

Baptism is used to indicate the flow of the HS saturating the believer.

David recieved it from samuel. I don't need a NAME for it as opposed to seeing what it is,and centering in on some way to disenfranchise.

 

[valiant]

Call it what you want mr cliche oriented believer.

It is in fact the second work AFTER SALVATION backed up by the word.

Baptism is used to indicate the flow of the HS saturating the believer.

David recieved it from samuel. I don't need a NAME for it as opposed to seeing what it is,and centering in on some way to disenfranchise.[/I]

LOL prove it

what do you think happens at a man's rebirth? 2 Cor 5.17

I am surprised at you saying careful exegesis of Scripture is 'cliché oriented'