Verse for "once saved always saved"?

[eternally-gratefull]

1 Corinthians 5:4-5 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

So you think Paul is lying when he comes right out and says some are saved on The Day of the Lord {when Christ returns}

You tell me,

Paul says in eph 2: 8-9 we have been (past tense) saved by grace through faith

He says in titus 3 we have been (past tense) saved not by works of rightiousness, but By Gods mercy.

So which is it?

If paul contradicts. We have major issues, Paul can not be trusted now can he?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OK. Lets read what Peter says in our bible

1PETER1
[4] To AN INHERITANCE INCORRUPTIBLE, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
[5] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto SALVATION READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME.
[9] Receiving the END OF YOUR FAITH, EVEN THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOULS.[10] Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
[13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and HOPE TO THE END FOR THE GRACE THAT IS TO BE BROUGHT UNTO YOU AT THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST;
[23] BEING BORN AGAIN, NOT OF CORRUPTIBLE SEED, BUT OF INCORRUPTIBLE, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Its not something that happens during the life time of a believer. Thats plain to see.....


An inheritance
Salvation revealed in the last time
End of your faith, EVEN THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOULS
Hope to the end
Grace brought at the revelation of Christ {we are saved by grace}
Being born again

see bolded apart.

It is reserved, Kept in heaven by the power of God for you. This inheritance is yours, and it will not fade away.

See also eph 1..

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Completed action..

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: [SUP]5 [/SUP]Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Based on past predestination, choosing, based on Gods foreknowledge, A completed action.



[SUP]6 [/SUP]To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. [SUP]7 [/SUP]In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

We are made acceptable (not will be) and have been redeemed by his blood (we were bought with a price) again, A completed action.


[SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Again, A completed action The inheritance paul and Peter spoke of is OURS

[SUP]12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Seal of Holy Spirit, Down payment of our salvation, Gaurantee that we will be given what God promised, What Peter said we have, and what paul said we have.

I was saved in the past, I am still saved, And I will be saved on the day of redemption. WHy, Because of Gods mercy,,

 

[Grandpa]

Oh! Oh! Now I think I may find myself in a difficult situation . . . .!!!!!

I have verses from both OSAS and non - OSAS people coming . . . (see posts 251,252)

I am not sure I can keep up anymore: My original question was is there a verse that clearly states "once saved, always saved"? Now I have people giving verses to prove the opposite side.

My conclusion is that no verse that is given is going to be conclusive on this issue. Both sides can shoot legitimate holes in any verse that is given to show that there are alternate viable interpretations. So though I myself have an opinion on the issue, the point I wanted to see when I started this thread is clearer than ever to me: "once saved always saved" is a doctrine derived from a study of applicable Scriptures and themes and principles.

It entered my mind to start another thread called: Verse to prove that a Christian can fall away or backslide? Hmmmm! I don't think I need to! Enough of you are ready with answers to any verse someone could give!

So, if neither side can be proved by one verse(s) - then what?

I think you are confused about what OSAS stands for.

ONCE SAVED.... Always Saved.

There are lots of verses that show that lots of different types of people don't quite receive Salvation.

But I think that post #241 and #251 definitively show that Salvation is by the Power of God and not subject to a person being able to maintain it or lose it by their works.

Keep in mind the first part, Once Saved. That is where people are getting tripped up and confused.

 

[Chester]

I think you are confused about what OSAS stands for.

ONCE SAVED.... Always Saved.

There are lots of verses that show that lots of different types of people don't quite receive Salvation.

But I think that post #241 and #251 definitively show that Salvation is by the Power of God and not subject to a person being able to maintain it or lose it by their works.

Keep in mind the first part, Once Saved. That is where people are getting tripped up and confused.

No, I don't think I am confused about what OSAS means.

I agree that salvation is by the power of God and that a person does not maintain or lose it by works. Many verses can be found that I think are very clear about that point.

But the point of this thread is: Is there a verse that says that clearly says: once a person is really genuinely saved, he has absolutely no possibility of being lost?

 

[Grandpa]

No, I don't think I am confused about what OSAS means.

I agree that salvation is by the power of God and that a person does not maintain or lose it by works. Many verses can be found that I think are very clear about that point.

Ok. You know that. Then what do these verses say to you?

John 10:27-29
[SUP]27 [/SUP]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

[john832]

No it does not. I bolded a part in your quote you forgot to highlight. Look at those words.

Since when is "near to being cursed" and "being cursed" the same thing?

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Now, I understand, He may be near to be cursed, But another man was saved through fire.. Paul spoke of him also.

1 cor 3: [SUP]15 [/SUP]If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Here we have the burning, And one being saved through the fire. Same concept. One can not lose salvation, If they could, Christ needs to come die again for the sin which caused the one to lose salvation.

Hebrews is speaking against returning to the law. Why would you go back to law. If you could lose salvation (fall away) (something the law teaches) then you can;t be re-saved again, the law is useless to you..

So let's look at the part you highlighted in the Diaglott...

Heb 6:8 producing but thorns and thistles, rejected and a curse near, of which the end for burning.

This gives us the sense of the verse, the curse is near and the end result is being burned. That sound like this?

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

I really don't need that type of reward.

 

[john832]

Ok. You know that. Then what do these verses say to you?

John 10:27-29
[SUP]27 [/SUP]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

When does God give eternal life?

1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

When? At the last trumpet, the return of Christ.

 

[Grace777x70]

1 John 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, I don't think I am confused about what OSAS means.

I agree that salvation is by the power of God and that a person does not maintain or lose it by works. Many verses can be found that I think are very clear about that point.

But the point of this thread is: Is there a verse that says that clearly says: once a person is really genuinely saved, he has absolutely no possibility of being lost?

I think you have been shown many, And there are many more I am sure you have not yet been shown.

I also think you just answered your own question, If salvation does not have to be maintained by works, It then can not be lost. Because if it can be lost, then something had to be done to maintain it. The Bible calls those works,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So let's look at the part you highlighted in the Diaglott...

Heb 6:8 producing but thorns and thistles, rejected and a curse near, of which the end for burning.

This gives us the sense of the verse, the curse is near and the end result is being burned. That sound like this?

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

I really don't need that type of reward.

The reward of being burnt (As I showed you in 1 Cor 3) was a person who earned zero reward. He basically left a burning house with if he was lucky, his underwear on, and that's all he got..

WOuld you rather be alive with nothing, or dead with nothing?

(yet he himself will be saved, even though as through the fire)

What it is not talking about, or to, are people who have earned many a reward.

Again, the key words were "near to being cursed"

He was not cursed, He literally was saved, as through fire (end was burnt)

 

[Grandpa]

Joh 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

When does God give eternal life?

1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

When? At the last trumpet, the return of Christ.

1 Peter 1:3-5
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
[SUP]4 [/SUP]To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


We're not perfect now. But we have been shown that we are saved by the Power of God and not our own strength or will.

I suppose this is part of the instruction to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. To find this out.

 

[Chester]

Ok. You know that. Then what do these verses say to you?

John 10:27-29
[SUP]27 [/SUP]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

When I look at the verses, here is what I see:

The "sheep" of God who know his voice and are following him are the subject of verse 28. That to me is "eternal security". The sheep are eternally secure. Those who do not know God's voice and are not following him are not his sheep. Verse 28 does not apply to them.

I don't understand the idea that because God gives "eternal life" that it is impossible to lose it. Nowhere have I found that any text specifically says that.

If I tell someone: "If you come to my house, I will take care of you forever", what do I mean? Most likely I mean that if you come and stay with me in my house, I will keep on taking care of you. I most likely don't mean: If you set your foot inside my door one time, then I will take care of you forever.

In the same way when Jesus says in verse 28: "I give unto them eternal life" you can't just assume that Jesus means that if you set your foot inside his house one time, then you keep the "eternal life". In fact, he clearly says in verse 27: My sheep are hearing (keep on hearing) my voice (Greek present tense).

I don't like trying to say what these verse do not say because I think it probably sounds like I think salvation can be lost "at the drop of a hat" (as some have said I am saying).

So here is the positive: Right now at this moment I am hearing my Shepherd's voice. That doesn't mean I am doing it perfectly! (Sure glad it isn't based on my works!). And my Shepherd knows me - he knows and understands my heart, my feeling, and the deepest parts of me - better than any person ever has! Praise the Lord - this gives me deep comfort! And I am responding in following him the best I can. As I am doing this, I know that in God I have real life - a quality of life - real living - and God has promised heaven eternally on top of the current relationship of life with Him - Praise the Lord!

 

[Chester]

I think you have been shown many, And there are many more I am sure you have not yet been shown.

I also think you just answered your own question, If salvation does not have to be maintained by works, It then can not be lost. Because if it can be lost, then something had to be done to maintain it. The Bible calls those works,

I respect your opinion. You said "I think you have been show many . . ."

I am, though, still looking . . . Where is the "one" verse of "many" that clearly states "once saved always saved"?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I respect your opinion. You said "I think you have been show many . . ."

I am, though, still looking . . . Where is the "one" verse of "many" that clearly states "once saved always saved"?

one?

John 6 had "Many" which showed it. John 3. Ephesians 1 has many.. How many do you want?

 

[Grandpa]

When I look at the verses, here is what I see:

The "sheep" of God who know his voice and are following him are the subject of verse 28. That to me is "eternal security". The sheep are eternally secure. Those who do not know God's voice and are not following him are not his sheep. Verse 28 does not apply to them.

I don't understand the idea that because God gives "eternal life" that it is impossible to lose it. Nowhere have I found that any text specifically says that.

That's why I bolded the part that says They Shall Never Perish.

These are pretty easy, elementary ideas.

If you are given Eternal Life you shall never perish. That is OSAS.

If you were given Eternal Life but could somehow lose it later on then the Lord wouldn't be able to say 'and they shall never perish'. He would have to give some caveat. Like, if they grow more powerful than God and can arm wrestle theirselves out of His Grasp, then they could perish. Or, if I change my mind and decide not to give them eternal life because of their poor performance, then they could perish.

 

[Chester]

That's why I bolded the part that says They Shall Never Perish.

These are pretty easy, elementary ideas.

If you are given Eternal Life you shall never perish. That is OSAS.

If you were given Eternal Life but could somehow lose it later on then the Lord wouldn't be able to say 'and they shall never perish'. He would have to give some caveat. Like, if they grow more powerful than God and can arm wrestle theirselves out of His Grasp, then they could perish. Or, if I change my mind and decide not to give them eternal life because of their poor performance, then they could perish.

I guess I may try to answer later, but I don't want to stir up strife . . .

It hurts to be told that I can't get hold of "pretty easy elementary ideas"!

 

[Grandpa]

I guess I may try to answer later, but I don't want to stir up strife . . .

It hurts to be told that I can't get hold of "pretty easy elementary ideas"!

I didn't mean to stir up strife or make you feel bad.

I just thought maybe we were having some sort of language difficulty.

I know, because of the long arguments on this subject, that its not as easy to see as it is laid out in the bible. But it really does seem like only those who don't want to see are the ones who don't see.

Its almost like one of those trick pictures where some people see an old woman and others see a young woman and you can't quite get the ones who see the old woman to see the young woman.

 

[Wall]

This one does...

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 if they fall away (One CANNOT fall away from something unless they belong to it), to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
Heb 6:8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Yes John832 and this was also prophecied in Zephy 1

ZEPH. 1 [3] I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the Lord. [4] I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests; [5] And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and THEM THAT WORSHIP AND THAT SWEAR BY THE LORD, and that swear by Malcham; [6] And THEM THAT ARE TURNED BACK FROM THE LORD; and those that have not sought the Lord, nor enquired for him. [7] Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God: for the day of the Lord is at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

 

[john832]

The reward of being burnt (As I showed you in 1 Cor 3) was a person who earned zero reward. He basically left a burning house with if he was lucky, his underwear on, and that's all he got..

WOuld you rather be alive with nothing, or dead with nothing?

(yet he himself will be saved, even though as through the fire)

What it is not talking about, or to, are people who have earned many a reward.

Again, the key words were "near to being cursed"

He was not cursed, He literally was saved, as through fire (end was burnt)

Well, actually, here is the reward of being burnt...

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

and the result is...

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Nothing. They are burned to ashes and that is the end of them just as Paul says...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wages of sin is death. The Greek for death here is...

G2288

θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Burned to ashes.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, actually, here is the reward of being burnt...

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Um, No, that is the reward for being cursed..

and the result is...

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Nothing. They are burned to ashes and that is the end of them just as Paul says...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wages of sin is death. The Greek for death here is...

G2288

θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Burned to ashes.

You must be sinless. Because this speaks of people who commit sin..

Are you sinless? Or are you something else?