House of Cornelius and the law

[BibleGuy]

I will give out the purpose of the law again as Paul outlined in his epistles. I really am not interested in going over all this law stuff as I know to fix my eyes on Christ and that His life in me will fulfill the intent of the law.

I can trust the Holy spirit in me to guide me. I'm sure that the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus in me will guide me from wanting to do Lev 18:23 and have sex with animals.


The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state. Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ Gal 3:24

The law is good and holy! But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Col 2:13-15 is where in says that Christ "disarmed" satan having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and He nailed it to the cross. Satan uses the law against us.

Satan comes and says to you - you broke the law - you are condemned now according to the law. BUT our Lord took that punishment for breaking that law for us.

When Christ takes away the condemnation of the law which satan uses against when he accuses us - he is being "disarmed". If disarmed means anything - it means he did have a weapon but now he doesn't because of our Lord. How great is our salvation in Him!



I'm posting scriptures for the viewers so that the Holy Spirit can show them the truth about not committing spiritual adultery on the Lord Jesus by going back to the law. ( Romans 7:1-6 )

Paul said to avoid disputes about the Law so I have no interest in engaging in useless debates. I'll trust the Holy spirit to do His job and reveal the things of Jesus to us! He is faithful to us.

Titus 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless

My response: Alas! The Argument which Grace777x70 has not answered. I wonder why?

Let's state the argument again...just to be clear:

1. Paul said don't sin (Rom. 6:15)
2. Paul said sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).
3. Paul said "don't disobey Torah" (from 1 and 2).
4. Paul said "obey Torah" (from 3).

So, the logic here is pretty tight.

Which of these four premises do you dispute?

1? 2? 3? or 4?

And, if you accept ALL FOUR premises, then your position MUST be wrong.

But I can't imagine how you could seriously oppose 1 or 2 or 3 or 4.

So how do YOU explain your hope in Christ whose apostle (Paul) gave us writings which rationally lead us (via 1, 2, 3, and 4) to reject your view of Torah?

And, note that Grace777x70's response (quoted above) completely ignored the question I asked.

Sigh...

Why won't you answer this honest and genuine question?

Do you not see how it immediately disconfirms your position?

I'll ask again: Which of these four premises do you dispute?

1? 2? 3? or 4?

BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

so we don't have to do the traveling part of the commandment because we're currently in a diaspora.

Why do you say we are in a diaspora? to me, it looks like there's nothing preventing lawkeeping jews and christians from going to Israel. not like the babylonian captivity or roman armies killing loads of people.


so, we use our intellect to see how the different laws are to be kept, like is it possible or do we know the purpose behind them, things like that... does that sound reasonable?



do you mean that all of torah is "Not required (presently, during this diaspora) for obedience, but definitely required in the future after the diaspora ends"?



no, I wasn't offended, it just seemed like an interesting thing to assume, that if someone sees something differently, they haven't thought about it...
blessings!

Hi again Dan_473...

Thanks for writing.

You wrote: "Why do you say we are in a diaspora? to me, it looks like there's nothing preventing lawkeeping jews and christians from going to Israel. not like the babylonian captivity or roman armies killing loads of people."

My response: We are in a diaspora because we are dispersed away from our Biblically-promised inheritance in our homeland (the land of Israel).

Sure, it's possible that all Christians could wake up tomorrow, realize they are (and have always been) included as Israelites, discover they should repent in obedience to Torah, discover they are welcomed to migrate to the promised land...but in reality, it could be a LONG time before the people of God come to widespread recognition of their true Israelite identity and inheritance in the land.

So, it's unlikely the diaspora will end any time soon.

And, there IS something preventing Christians from making Aliyah...it's called the "Law of Return", which screens off those who are not Jewish.

Thus, the diaspora has surely not ended yet...and Moses said the people of God will turn to YHVH (implying "obey Torah") before returning to the land (Dt. 30:1-4). And, the people of God generally have not yet done this. So again, the diaspora persists, and will likely continue to persist for a long time (even longer, if Christians continue to widely resist the Spirit's efforts to bring the truth regarding their Israelite heritage and Torah-obedient covenant obligations).

The exciting news is that belief in Yeshua as Messiah (by Jews WITHIN Israel) appears to be rapidly increasing.

AND, Christian awareness of Israelite identity and Torah also appears to be increasing.

So, the Spirit appears to be bringing His people back...but it's a process...not a snap of a finger.

You wrote: "no, I wasn't offended, it just seemed like an interesting thing to assume, that if someone sees something differently, they haven't thought about it..."

My response: Rather, the assumption I intended to emphasize was that MANY Christians have simply not thought about it sufficiently.

They don't realize that they arbitrarily pick-and-choose only select Torah portions.

They don't realize that the best consistent way to obey Torah is to MAXIMIZE Torah-obedience in this present diaspora.

That's the focus I seek to emphasize.

best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

sure, I'll rephrase it
yhwh is the name God uses in the old covenant, it's not there in the new covenant (or, "testament") writings.

I don't think it's a matter of OK to say or not, to me it's about following the pattern of the apostles

do you believe the old covenant is still in force?

Hi there!

You wrote: "...to me it's about following the pattern of the apostles"

My response: Paul (an apostle) said ALL Scripture (so that includes the Pentateuch and Prophets) should correct and train us (2 Ti. 3:16).

And, these Scriptures ROUTINELY use YHVH.

So that's an example of apostolic support for usage of YHVH.

You wrote: "do you believe the old covenant is still in force?"

My response: Yes. Heb. 8:13 confirms this fact (as do hundreds of additional Scriptural considerations).

Remember, Heb. 8:13 says the Old Covenant was ready (Gr. "engoos") to pass away...thereby confirming that it had not yet actually passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.

best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Morning BibleGuy,



When Jesus said "do not think that I have come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it," he was saying that he didn't come to toss the law aside as unimportant, but he came to meet its righteous requirements, bringing it to fulfillment. What Jesus did not come to do was to perpetuate the law, that is, he did not come to keep it going. When he fulfilled the law, He did it perfectly and nailed it to the cross.

Consequently, anyone who is trusting in the works of the law to obtain salvation will not enter in. Our salvation is obtained by having faith in Jesus as the One who provided salvation for us, completely and fully. Anyone who brings in any other works as a requirement for salvation is basically saying that Jesus' sacrifice was insufficient. Trusting in Jesus for our salvation puts the focus on what He did, whereas trusting in our efforts puts the focus on our works.

"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it."

Hi Ahwatukee,

What about Mt. 5:19? Does it apply or not?

If you say "no", then you've violated Mt. 28:20.

If you say "yes", then you now believe we should teach and obey Torah!

Either way, your anti-Torah position has a problem.

Of course we should NOT trust in faithless works of the law to botain salvation.

Of course salvation is by faith in Jesus.

Of Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient.

Of course we should not trust in our efforts.

We AGREE on all this!

But what about Mt. 5:19?

Does it apply to you or not?

You can't just say something like "Jesus nailed the law to the cross" without even citing any Scripture!

And, suppose Jesus really did terminate the law...well...then Jesus must have been confused when He told us to teach and command all of Jesus' PRE-CROSS Torah-obedient teachings to disciples of all nations in Mt. 28:20!

See the problem you have here?

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You wrote: "do you believe the old covenant is still in force?"

My response: Yes. Heb. 8:13 confirms this fact (as do hundreds of additional Scriptural considerations).

Remember, Heb. 8:13 says the Old Covenant was ready (Gr. "engoos") to pass away...thereby confirming that it had not yet actually passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.

The old covenant was decrepit and ready to die when Hebrews 8:13 was written. That was nearly 2000 years ago. It's way beyond its expiration date. In fact, it's been dead a lot longer than it was alive.

 

[BibleGuy]

great! so we use the reasons behind why laws are given, and it sounds like we want to be led by the Holy Spirit in understanding how we obey torah in our lives.

being led by the Spirit, then, I think different people might be in different places as they learn and grow... I think we can agree that no human currently understands all of torah, there are always new things we can learn.

so one person might feel they need to travel to Jerusalem in order to be obedient, another might not,

still another might look at Jesus saying he is the bread of life and believe that keeping the feast means feasting on Jesus whose flesh is true food. we look for how the spirit understands the letter!

Yes...we are all at different points in our walk...

But Scripture PROMISES us where we will all end up!

Scripture PROMISES that we (His people) will again discern our identity as the Israelite people of God.

Scripture PROMISES that we will again discern our Torah-obedient covenant obligations as fellow Israelite participants in the covenants between YHVH and Israel.

Scripture PROMISES that we will return to the land of Israel, sharing the inheritance of Abraham.

Scripture PROMISES that we will all again know that YHVH's name is YHVH!

And, Scripture urges us to embrace these facts (and, thus, all of their many corollaries) as we hasten the end of our diaspora, the fulfillment of our inheritance, and the return of our Messiah to establish His Torah-obedient Kingdom.

And, Scripture COMMANDS us to teach these things to all disciples of the Messiah.

Yes, we need to recognize that this process is a process...not a snap of the finger...

But that's not an excuse to condone the contrary belief systems embraced by many of our brethren throughout the Body.

best...
BibleGuy

 

[RobbyEarl]

The old covenant was decrepit and ready to die when Hebrews 8:13 was written. That was nearly 2000 years ago. It's way beyond its expiration date. In fact, it's been dead a lot longer than it was alive.

There are many covenants in the OT that are still relevant today, not to mention the moral aspects of God.

God's covenant with Abraham is still in effect.
His Covenant with Jacob (Israel) is still in effect
His promise (covenant) with King David is still in effect.
His Rainbow is still in effect
Shall I go on?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

There are many covenants in the OT that are still relevant today, not to mention the moral aspects of God.

God's covenant with Abraham is still in effect.
His Covenant with Jacob (Israel) is still in effect
His promise (covenant) with King David is still in effect.
His Rainbow is still in effect
Shall I go on?

GOD's covenants with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David all reached their terminus and fulfillment in Christ and the new covenant. Yes, please go on.

 

[BibleGuy]

my understanding of simplifiedtruth's position was that since Paul says we are the temple, laws relating to the temple are not currently observed.






ok, I'm following you there




I'm not following what you're saying there about "all things are food".






I think Peter is saying do not be conformed to the former lusts. I think Jesus meant that what you eat doesn't make you unholy.

Hey again...

You wrote: "I'm not following what you're saying there about "all things are food"."

My response: Mark 7. "All foods are clean" is sometimes used to pretend that Lev. 11 is abolished. However, "all foods are clean", in context, merely confirms that everything accepted as food is accepted as clean food, REGARDLESS of whether you washed your hands in the special man-made way promoted by the religious leaders at that time.

"All foods are clean" does not mean that you can ignore Lev. 11 and eat whatever you want.

Why? Because "all foods are clean" doesn't prove "all things placed into one's mouth are food".

Furthermore, would 1st century Jewish leaders (who claim to follow Torah) agree that "pork" is included in the definition of "food"? Surely not..so again, "all foods are clean" does not confirm that pork was considered by Jesus to now be included as clean food.

In addition, Mk. 7 has Jesus VERY angry at the religious leaders for inventing man-made traditions which NULLIFY Torah!

So, it makes no sense to have Jesus say: "Shame on you, you bad religious leaders! You should obey Torah! And, oh by the way, all foods are clean, so you can disobey Torah and eat whatever you want." This would be absurd and inconsistent. That's why we must reject this common (but incorrect) viewpoint.

Thus we again confirm that "all foods are clean" does not confirm that Jesus opposes Lev. 11.

Indeed, Jesus' zeal for Torah-obedience in Mk. 7 simply confirms that Jesus wants Torah to be OBEYED!

Yet....so many of us Christians regrettably celebrate Jesus' Resurrection with a big roasted ham....contrary to the message and ministry of the very Messiah we claim to be celebrating!

Sigh...

BibleGuy

 

[simplifiedtruth]

The old covenant was decrepit and ready to die when Hebrews 8:13 was written. That was nearly 2000 years ago. It's way beyond its expiration date. In fact, it's been dead a lot longer than it was alive.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heavenand earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:20That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousnessof the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Have you looked out the window lately ? As long as there is a earth beneath and a heaven above the law is in effect. As stated by Moses in the Law and Jesus in the gospel.

The law is the marriage term which is still the same, the difference is the new sacrifice by which we must enter it.
The law and the prophets are fulfilled when the last prophecy has come to pass and the new creation has come.

 

[RobbyEarl]

GOD's covenants with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David all reached their terminus and fulfillment in Christ and the new covenant. Yes, please go on.

Abraham " all nations shall be blessed by you and who ever curse you shall be cursed and whoever blesses you shall be blessed" still in effect

I don't see a son of David sitting on the throne of Jerusalem, Still in effect
Every time it rains we see a rainbow, still in effect.

Though I scatter you to the nations I will recall you (in so many words), happening now and still in effect

Shall I birth a nation in one day, yes in 1947.

 

[jaybird88]

Believe in the death, burial, and Resurrection of our dear Lord.

some of us also believe in His teachings as well.

Mat 5 21-22
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[SUP][a][/SUP] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ [SUP]22 [/SUP]But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP][c][/SUP] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[SUP][d][/SUP] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

why would Jesus teach on murder when the law of murder has been done away with? makes little sense to me.

 

[redeemed2014]

some of us also believe in His teachings as well.

Mat 5 21-22
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[SUP][a][/SUP] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ [SUP]22 [/SUP]But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP][c][/SUP] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[SUP][d][/SUP] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

why would Jesus teach on murder when the law of murder has been done away with? makes little sense to me.

It makes little sense because you are adding something that i never said. if you are born into Christ through the grace of God you will not murder. The Holy Spirit guides you, not your flesh

 

[Grace777x70]

It makes little sense because you are adding something that i never said. if you are born into Christ through the grace of God you will not murder. The Holy Spirit guides you, not your flesh

I agree...we can trust that the Holy Spirit in us will lead us in our lives now that we are in Christ. We serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter of the law.

Jesus often elevated the Law to what it's real intent was. which is what Matt. 5:21-22 is saying. Even if you are angry at a brother - you have broken the Law. The purpose ( one of them ) was to lead us to Christ as we need a Savior!

Romans 7:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

some of us also believe in His teachings as well.

Mat 5 21-22
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[SUP][a][/SUP] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ [SUP]22 [/SUP]But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP][c][/SUP] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[SUP][d][/SUP] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

why would Jesus teach on murder when the law of murder has been done away with? makes little sense to me.

Can't you see from that passage that a greater law has been established?

 

[garee]

Hi Bible guy,

So sure…use “lord” if you like…but don’t forget that our God actually has a NAME! His name is YHVH (that is, the tt), not merely Heb. “adon” (H113) which also comes through as “lord” in English.

I think someone was telling me not to use YHVH, but to use “lord” in English…but such English usage is ambiguous, since Heb. “adon” also comes through as “lord” in English…and it’s important to YHVH that we actually know his NAME (Jer. 16:21), not merely his title.

Our Lord, or what you call THVH is simply and extension of the word Joshua, Jesus as Savoir .

God does not have a name like that of men. It would seem you are confusing the things of God with those of men. He does not need a name to distinguish himself from false gods as if he was in some sort of visual look alike competition and some might get him mixed with false gods. All the names of God speak of his immutable attributes. They are titles. Not merely but clearly.

What some of the Jews have did in respect to the tetragrammaton is their private tradition .It is not a tradition of God as some sort of secret word belonging to members only . So you can use the tetragrammaton, as an oral tradition of men like a Catholic uses a rosary but it only means something according to your opinion. It is not a law of faith that comes from hearing God by faith. .

Now then…what do you do?

Seek maximal Torah-obedience.
Arbitrarily pick-and-choose selective Torah-obedience.
Non-arbitrarily select Torah portions for obedience (say, by picking only the “moral” Torah portions)
Completely disregard Torah…focusing only on the NT.


I maintain that most Christians typically choose 2, 3, or 4…

BUT, I also maintain that 1 is the truly Biblical position advocated in Scripture, as commanded by the Father, Son, Spirit, Pentateuch, Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Apostles, and Epistles…even in Revelation.

The whole Bible is the perfect law of God found in what he calls the “book of the perfect law and we call the Bible .There are no philosophical theories in the whole bible . It is why it is called the “law of faith” in respect to His faith and not the theory of faith in respect to us. What must be believed ,as a law found in Genesis applies to any of the chapters or what we call books. All must be obeyed equally

 

[garee]

Hi Bible guy.

You wrote: "I'm not following what you're saying there about "all things are food"."

My response: Mark 7. "All foods are clean" is sometimes used to pretend that Lev. 11 is abolished. However, "all foods are clean", in context, merely confirms that everything accepted as food is accepted as clean food, REGARDLESS of whether you washed your hands in the special man-made way promoted by the religious leaders at that time.

"All foods are clean" does not mean that you can ignore Lev. 11 and eat whatever you want.

It means the beginning of the "generation of Christ," no longer typified by the outward flesh of a Jew had begun. The genealogy in Mathew beginning with Abraham through Joseph ....today is no longer needed to carry on.

The book of the "generation of Jesus Christ", the son of David, the son of Abraham. Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;Mat 1:1-2

You could say that temporal list in respect to the seed, singular (spiritual) of Christ which began with Abraham ended with Joeseph the husband of Mary. It was never in respect to seeds (many)as to the flesh of those men.

And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.Mat 1:16-17


It is called the last days or the end times. The first century reformation reformed that temporal order of types and shadows. Which never did provide any kind of spiritual substance needed to forgive ones eternal debt of sin.

Foods necessary for these bodies of death that will die do not bring us closer to God. They enter our mouth into our stomach and come out as draught. It cannot enter ones soul.

To eat or drink spiritually is a work of faith,( believing God not seen) . It is not seen with the human eye. Jesus spoke of that kind of food in which the apostles knew not of.

The Christian meat or bread is to do the will of God, who works by faith in us to both will and do his good purpose. It Is God who performs that which is appointed to us.

In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat. But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of. Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Joh 4:31

Ham although high in cholesterol goes good with eggs .Like all food they must be taken in moderation .

 

[jaybird88]

It makes little sense because you are adding something that i never said. if you are born into Christ through the grace of God you will not murder. The Holy Spirit guides you, not your flesh

it makes perfect sense from where i am. what i see is people teaching the law is no more, there is no law, we are not under tha law, i dont know how else to explain it.
is there a passage anywhere where Jesus says from this day on we are no longer going to follow the law? i have not seen one.

 

[BeyondET]

Hi Bible guy.



It means the beginning of the "generation of Christ," no longer typified by the outward flesh of a Jew had begun. The genealogy in Mathew beginning with Abraham through Joseph ....today is no longer needed to carry on.

The book of the "generation of Jesus Christ", the son of David, the son of Abraham. Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;Mat 1:1-2

You could say that temporal list in respect to the seed, singular (spiritual) of Christ which began with Abraham ended with Joeseph the husband of Mary. It was never in respect to seeds (many)as to the flesh of those men.

And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.Mat 1:16-17


It is called the last days or the end times. The first century reformation reformed that temporal order of types and shadows. Which never did provide any kind of spiritual substance needed to forgive ones eternal debt of sin.

Foods necessary for these bodies of death that will die do not bring us closer to God. They enter our mouth into our stomach and come out as draught. It cannot enter ones soul.

To eat or drink spiritually is a work of faith,( believing God not seen) . It is not seen with the human eye. Jesus spoke of that kind of food in which the apostles knew not of.

The Christian meat or bread is to do the will of God, who works by faith in us to both will and do his good purpose. It Is God who performs that which is appointed to us.

In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat. But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of. Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Joh 4:31

Ham although high in cholesterol goes good with eggs .Like all food they must be taken in moderation .

hey goodmorning I was posting in another thread about a guy named Enoch supposedly Enoch is mentioned in the genealogy of Christ is this correct??

 

[Dan_473]

This is a classic example of taking the text out of context. You should always read before and after a verse to get the context of what is being said.

Titus 3:8 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.Avoiding Divisions9But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Believe it or not but strivings in the law about genealogies have always been a big topic causing strife.

We are not to strive with people about the law if they choose to still be an heretic after the first and second admonition here.
Always remember Matthew 5:17-19.

Jeremiah 17:9 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The heart [/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]is [/FONT]deceitful [FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]above [/FONT]all things[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], and [/FONT]desperately wicked[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]: who can know it?[/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]People will almost always go towards the way of the flesh if they are not convinced about what is Truth. The easiest way.[/FONT]

I think the context fits with how Grace777x70 used it.

no one knows torah fully, always more to learn... so no sense in unhelpful controversies.




we remember matt 5, as we want to remember all the scriptures. we don't need to ask which commandments are annuled, but how do we go about keeping them?

I believe we agreed earlier that Jesus has the power to make changes to the law. for me, the short answer of how to keep torah is to be led by the Spirit.