-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Well, BibleGuy, it's been great! I've really enjoyed these exchanges...
but my wrists are hurting from all the posting... it seems like we've hit this central issue several times... the issue of being led by the Spirit, the Spirit's understanding of the scriptures...
earlier we talked about "unprofitable" controversies... I think further discussion would be unprofitable...
Unless, of course, you have a significantly new idea about the central issue... (I'll check back periodically)
God's blessings to you! Joy! Positive sayings!
Love in Christ,
Dan
but my wrists are hurting from all the posting... it seems like we've hit this central issue several times... the issue of being led by the Spirit, the Spirit's understanding of the scriptures...
earlier we talked about "unprofitable" controversies... I think further discussion would be unprofitable...
Unless, of course, you have a significantly new idea about the central issue... (I'll check back periodically)
God's blessings to you! Joy! Positive sayings!
Love in Christ,
Dan
Hi BibleGuy
Yes much to glean. Thanks for looking at it from my perspective and replying..
We can look at those verses you offered above and how the phrase; "judgment seat" I believe could be used, if you do not mind. The seat of Moses comes to mind.
I think in effect because Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God, as the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world demonstrated that work , as he took the judgment on our behalf as payment for the wage of our sin. It could be reckoned as the judgement seat of Christ in respect to the judgment he took on in our behalf.
You could say he has in effect sat at the judgment seat. He knows who are his and who he is not drawing according to the workings of His faith in us, working to both will and do His good pleasure.
2Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the "judgment seat of Christ"; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
The word appear has an interesting defintion.According to the Strong's lexicon it can mean: "to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way", or; "to make know by teaching".
I would question the appearing. Do we physically literally appear?
To be absent of the body is to be present with Christ, asleep never to have any part in anything here forever more.
Will we be awoken on the last day and God will judge us according to what we work we have done? Or do we have the confidence of Christ as a hope beyond human hope who promised us if he has begun the good work of salvation in us he finish it to the end?
It the judgement seat can be used to represent that God is no respecter of persons as way of keeping us humble and not judging each other by hating by not blessing rather than loving each other by blessing them according to God working in us as to whether we have Christ abiding in us or not.
It’s I believe a reminder Christ paid the wage for all of our sin as the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. And because of the judgment he took on our behalf by giving His Spirit life in jeopardy of his own Spirit life, we have passed from death unto eternal life.
Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Below it is used literally in respect to Christ who was no longer there. The same ideology that Saul had when he persecuted Christ and looked to the followers of Christ, when he kicked against the pricks “the written law of God”(Torah) ..What was accredited to the followers was accredited to Christ, as a imputed righteousness .
Therefore, when they were come hither, without any delay on the morrow I sat on the judgment seat, and commanded the man to be brought forth. Against whom when the accusers stood up, they brought none accusation of such things as I supposed: But had certain questions against him of their own superstition, and of one Jesus, which was dead, whom Paul affirmed to be alive. Act 25:18
Could that be considered the judgment seat of Christ ?
The parable in Mathew 20 uses a penny to represent the one reward .There is no difference as to when or how much work in bringing the gospel. There is no bargaining with God who has mercy and grace as a gift in respect to His finished work , as the one who hires the laborers giving each one the same reward eternal life.
Matthew 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
Moses was used as a type or metaphor to represent the Torah the law of God, that will not enter heaven, until then, as he describes it not one jot or tittle will pass until the new heavens and earth appear. .
He violated a law of Christ that said; strike the Rock once, as to why he was forbidden from entering the promised land which typified the new eternal land in the new heavens and earth . What would Moses who represents the law of God have to do with striking a Rock once and waters came forth?
Seeing Christ is our Rock could it be a picture of the law of God striking the Son of God and the water coming out represent the gospel .And therefore striking it twice could mean a person places Christ in double jeapordy as if one work of faith(belief) was not enough to secure our salvation? I think its clearly as parable that announce the sufering of Christ beforehand.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
In the new heavens and earth there will be no law and therefore no trespass. This is I believe seeing the bride of Christ the new creature will have a different kind of spirit in respect to a eternal finished work. That work of Christ is not subject to corruption, as in aging in a decaying process leading to death and destruction .
Christ defeated death by His work of faith, according to His three day labor of love . His faith that works in us is not of our own selves lest any man boast in false pride.
I say the reward is the same .Eternal spirit life. The wage he paid all the workers, he was forming Christ in..
Yes much to glean. Thanks for looking at it from my perspective and replying..
We can look at those verses you offered above and how the phrase; "judgment seat" I believe could be used, if you do not mind. The seat of Moses comes to mind.
I think in effect because Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God, as the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world demonstrated that work , as he took the judgment on our behalf as payment for the wage of our sin. It could be reckoned as the judgement seat of Christ in respect to the judgment he took on in our behalf.
You could say he has in effect sat at the judgment seat. He knows who are his and who he is not drawing according to the workings of His faith in us, working to both will and do His good pleasure.
2Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the "judgment seat of Christ"; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
The word appear has an interesting defintion.According to the Strong's lexicon it can mean: "to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way", or; "to make know by teaching".
I would question the appearing. Do we physically literally appear?
To be absent of the body is to be present with Christ, asleep never to have any part in anything here forever more.
Will we be awoken on the last day and God will judge us according to what we work we have done? Or do we have the confidence of Christ as a hope beyond human hope who promised us if he has begun the good work of salvation in us he finish it to the end?
It the judgement seat can be used to represent that God is no respecter of persons as way of keeping us humble and not judging each other by hating by not blessing rather than loving each other by blessing them according to God working in us as to whether we have Christ abiding in us or not.
It’s I believe a reminder Christ paid the wage for all of our sin as the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. And because of the judgment he took on our behalf by giving His Spirit life in jeopardy of his own Spirit life, we have passed from death unto eternal life.
Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Below it is used literally in respect to Christ who was no longer there. The same ideology that Saul had when he persecuted Christ and looked to the followers of Christ, when he kicked against the pricks “the written law of God”(Torah) ..What was accredited to the followers was accredited to Christ, as a imputed righteousness .
Therefore, when they were come hither, without any delay on the morrow I sat on the judgment seat, and commanded the man to be brought forth. Against whom when the accusers stood up, they brought none accusation of such things as I supposed: But had certain questions against him of their own superstition, and of one Jesus, which was dead, whom Paul affirmed to be alive. Act 25:18
Could that be considered the judgment seat of Christ ?
The parable in Mathew 20 uses a penny to represent the one reward .There is no difference as to when or how much work in bringing the gospel. There is no bargaining with God who has mercy and grace as a gift in respect to His finished work , as the one who hires the laborers giving each one the same reward eternal life.
Matthew 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
Moses was used as a type or metaphor to represent the Torah the law of God, that will not enter heaven, until then, as he describes it not one jot or tittle will pass until the new heavens and earth appear. .
He violated a law of Christ that said; strike the Rock once, as to why he was forbidden from entering the promised land which typified the new eternal land in the new heavens and earth . What would Moses who represents the law of God have to do with striking a Rock once and waters came forth?
Seeing Christ is our Rock could it be a picture of the law of God striking the Son of God and the water coming out represent the gospel .And therefore striking it twice could mean a person places Christ in double jeapordy as if one work of faith(belief) was not enough to secure our salvation? I think its clearly as parable that announce the sufering of Christ beforehand.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
In the new heavens and earth there will be no law and therefore no trespass. This is I believe seeing the bride of Christ the new creature will have a different kind of spirit in respect to a eternal finished work. That work of Christ is not subject to corruption, as in aging in a decaying process leading to death and destruction .
Christ defeated death by His work of faith, according to His three day labor of love . His faith that works in us is not of our own selves lest any man boast in false pride.
I say the reward is the same .Eternal spirit life. The wage he paid all the workers, he was forming Christ in..
Hello garee,
Again...lots of very interesting things to ponder!
Not sure I have the best answers for your questions, though...
But a few thoughts....
You wrote: "I say the reward is the same .Eternal spirit life...."
My response: How does this reconcile with Mt. 5:19, where there is clearly a distinction between rewards?
Or Mt. 5:12, where we see there is a special reward only for those who are persecuted as the prophets have been persecuted?
Or Heb. 11:35, where some chose to endure greater torture so as to receive a better resurrection?
Or, is everyone equally humble? Surely not...and Jesus says that those with humility as a child are greatest in the kingdom of heaven (Mt. 18:4).
Or, Lk. 6:35, where we find Jesus confirming that greater reward is given to those who love their enemies, lend, and do not despair.
Or, 1 Cor. 3:14-15, where we find that some people will be saved (but will SUFFER LOSS), where others receive a REWARD for their work.
So sure...every saved person receives eternal life.
BUT, I think I've shown you enough evidence to confirm that NOT every saved person receives the same reward.
Also, you wrote: "In the new heavens and earth there will be no law and therefore no trespass."
My response: The new heavens and earth occur in conjunction with Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah, Sabbath Torah, and New Moon Torah (Is. 66:21-23).
So, I think you need to revise your views on the new heavens and earth.
blessings...
BibleGuy
Hello JGIG,
Thank you for engaging my (BibleGuy’s) position.
I know things can get “pointed” or “heated”…but at the end of the day, I like to view us as fellow seekers of truth, seeking to grow and learn together, in the love of Jesus, our Messiah.
OK…here’s an update to our recent exchanges.
I posted 13 reasons which jointly confirm that we Christians should grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of Moses. (Post #12: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/136719-house-cornelius-law.html#post2635909 )
JGIG responded here (Post #40): http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/136719-house-cornelius-law-2.html#post2637321
In Post #45 I set forth 24 objections to JGIG's position: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/136719-house-cornelius-law-3.html#post2637594
JGIG was not able to respond (personal family reasons), except for a few comments at Post #157 (http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/136719-house-cornelius-law-8.html#post2639571)
We’ve also had an exchange here: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...any-still-asks-sin-serious-2.html#post2637399
And then here: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...any-still-asks-sin-serious-2.html#post2659399
Pending a response from her, here’s where we stand:
I have sought to answer every objection she’s raised against the Scriptural position I’ve set forth.
She has NOT answered the following 39 objections which are now on the table:
1. You (JGIG) wrote: "Torah has not ceased to exist. As a functioning, valid covenant, however, it is obsolete in Christ and His Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His Perfect, Permanent, High Priesthood. "
My response: Obsolete (Gr. verb "palaioo") but NOT yet passed away! Read again (Heb. 8:13), where it is merely READY (Gr. "engoos") to pass away, confirming that it had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.
Therefore, Torah is still in force, even during the New Covenant era, just as the remainder of Scripture also confirms.
2. You wrote: "Those who are in Christ are dead to the Law (Rom. 7:4-6)."
My response: Keep reading! The law defines sin (Rom. 7:7; also Rom. 3:20; 1 Jn. 3:4). And Paul said we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15). Thus we should NOT disobey Torah. Thus we should OBEY Torah!
3. You wrote: "Christ (of the Tribe of Judah) has been appointed as the Perfect Permanent High Priest of the New Covenant by an oath from God, replacing the Levitical priesthood, again, rendering the Old Covenant obsolete."
My response: Learn from the prophets! Christ comes to RESTORE the Levitical priesthood so that it will be pleasing to YHVH as in former years (Mal. 3).
Moses (Dt. 30:1-8), Ezekiel (Eze. 40-47), Isaiah (Is. 66:21-23), Zechariah (Zec. 14:16-21), Jeremiah (Jer. 33:17-22) likewise GUARANTEE restoration of Levitical Torah.
So let's stop misleading others by claiming the Levitical priesthood was replaced.
4. You wrote: "Have you achieved perfection yet?
Because that is the standard that Jesus sets forth in Matthew 5. Be ye perfect as God in heaven is perfect. If you don't achieve that standard, well, your own doctrine condemns you."
My response: Do YOU obey Matthew 5:48? Please learn from it.
MATTHEW 5:48 Jesus clearly views Pentateuchal Scripture as authoritative and applicable to Christians, as evidenced by His use of Ge. 1:27, Ex. 3:6, Ex. 20:12, Ex. 21:17, Lev. 19:18, Lev. 20:9, Nu. 21:9, Dt. 5:16, Dt. 6:4-5, Dt. 6:13, Dt. 6:16, Dt. 8:3, Dt. 10:20, and Dt. 19:15. Deuteronomy 18:13 shows that people should be blameless/complete/perfect (Heb. “tamim”, LXX “teleios”). Jesus also explicitly affirms that people should be perfect (Gr. “teleios”, Mt. 5:48). People who are “tamim” walk in obedience to the Torah (Ps. 19:7; Ps. 119:1). It follows that Jesus accepts that Christians should walk in obedience to the Torah.
5. You wrote: “Nope. They don't come close to your interpretation.”
My response: What? Read again! Jesus sends religious people AWAY from Him…why? Because they exemplify LAWLESSNESS (Gr. “anomia”, Mt. 7:21-23). The punishment for “anomia” is very severe in Mt. 13:41-42 as well.
So why do you oppose the law, claiming Levitical Torah is replaced?
Please, I don’t want you to be guilty of “anomia”. Stop opposing Scriptural teaching regarding Levitical Torah.
6. You wrote: “Logos refers to the Living Word, Christ, Who is God incarnate, not to Torah, which is merely part of the written Scriptures (G1124 - graphē).”
My response: Jesus equates God’s word (Gr. “logos”, Mk. 7:13) with Torah (Mk. 7:9). So, when Jesus refers to YOUR WORD (when praying to God, Jn. 17:17), He is referring that which INCLUDES Torah (per Jesus’ own use of “logos” in, for example, Mk. 7:9-13).
So let’s not pretend that God’s “word” in Jn. 17:17 somehow excludes Torah.
Let’s not oppose Jesus’ OWN usage of the term “logos”. Jesus uses “logos” to refer to Torah.
Moreover, Jesus says the Psalms are Scripture (Gr. “graphe”, Jn. 10:34-35) which cannot be broken. And, Psalms require Torah (Ps. 1; Ps. 19; Ps. 119). And Torah requires Levitical sacrificial activity.
So again, we have found Jesus AFFIRMING the perpetuity (not replacement!) of Levitical Torah.
7. You wrote: “Obeying every commandment that applies to you 100% of the time? That is the standard that Jesus sets forth, yes?”
My response: You now agree Jesus taught us to obey all applicable and properly observable Torah? Good!
8. You wrote: “Tell us, how were the recent festivities in Jerusalem this past April? I hear it's lovely there this time of year! Did you bring your sacrifice to Jerusalem?”
My response: Why presuppose Levitical/sacrificial/ceremonial Torah is presently observable during this present diaspora?
Have you not read that ALL Torah commands will be observed only AFTER we again return to the land? (Dt. 30:1-8).
Thus we first return to YHVH in obedience to Torah commands (Dt. 30:2), then we return to the land (Dt. 30:5), and THEN we can again fully obey 100% of Torah.
So, obey all Torah that you can right now! Prepare to obey ALL Torah in the future! (Just as Moses prophesied.)
9. You wrote: “If Torah Law is still in force, there must be an active Levitial Priesthood through whom you can present your sacrifices and offerings to God, yes? It's not like Levites can't be located today…”
My response: No…Moses said we will return to obey Torah (Dt. 30:2), but not ALL Torah (Dt. 30:8) until after we return to the LAND (Dt. 30:5).
Let’s get that order really clear in our minds.
And we both know that there is no functioning tabernacle, presently, in Jerusalem…so we both know that Levitical/sacrificial/ceremonial Torah is not presently observed/observable.
But that’s no excuse to oppose the abundance of Scriptures which confirm the forthcoming restoration of this Levitical Torah.
And, that’s no excuse to NOT obey Torah portions which ARE presently observable!
10. You wrote: “Again, you err in assigning 'Torah' where a living expression of God's Word is defined:
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” (from Mt. 4)
The Greek for 'word' in that verse is G4487 - rhēma, which is the living voice, or word, of God, not the Torah, or 'graphe' of God, which is part of the written Scriptures (see above).”
My response: You are wrong! The term “rhema” is straight out of Dt. 8:3 (which Jesus was quoting!). Read it in the LXX, and you’ll see! The LXX uses “rhema” (Dt. 8:3) to refer to that which comes from YHVH’s mouth. This is TORAH!
And, there is nothing in Jn. 5:39 that says that “rhema” cannot be used to refer to Torah.
Yikes!
Please correct your error.
Jesus quotes Dt. 8:3 (Mt. 4:4) referring to TORAH…this is how we LIVE, according to Jesus.
Why would you oppose the Torah by which Jesus said we live?
11. You wrote: “And what were they not believing?
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (from Jn. 6)”
My response: AND! If we believe in Jesus, then we should OBEY His teachings.
AND, what did Jesus teach?
That our eternal life depends upon obedience to Torah! (Lk. 10:25-28).
That our position in the coming kingdom depends upon our Torah-teaching and Torah-obedience (Mt. 5:19).
That those who oppose Torah (exemplifying “anomia”, lawlessness) will be cast away (Mt. 7:21-23; 13:41-42).
So yes! Please BELIEVE even in the teachings of this Messiah Jesus, Whom God has sent, Who comes to RESTORE even the Levitical priesthood (Mal. 3).
STOP opposing the restoration which our Messiah comes to bring forth.
12. You wrote: “The Psalms require obedience to the covenant in force at the time.”
My response: Jesus said the Psalms CANNOT be set aside. Thus, the Torah-obedient Psalms are STILL in force.
Thus, I use the Torah-obedient Psalms to ADMONISH (Gr. “nutheteo”) you to obey the Torah of those very Psalms, just as Paul requires (Col. 3:16).
And, Heb. 8:13 confirms that Torah persists even during the New Covenant Era.
AND, Jer. 31:33 has TORAH passing directly into the New Covenant.
So, even if you want to (wrongly) pretend that the Mosaic Covenant is no longer in force…the TORAH of that covenant still passes directly into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33). Thus, you still have not justified your opposition to the Levitical Torah which passes directly into the New Covenant Torah, per Jer. 31:33.
13. You wrote: “The instructions about how to enter into and stay in covenant with God are quite different from the Abrahamic to the Sinaitic to the New Covenants.”
My response: All the covenants (plural! Eph. 2:12) are still in force. No Torah from any of the covenants has been terminated. We participate in these covenants. Thus, we OBEY the Torah of the covenants in which we participate.
14. You wrote: “After the Cross, the New Covenant, ratified by the Blood of Christ, God Himself in the flesh, is in effect, rendering the Old Covenant obsolete, and is entered into by faith and maintained by our Perfect, Permanent High Priest, Christ Jesus.”
My response: Obsolete…but NOT yet passed away. It is only READY (Gr. “engoos”, Heb. 8:13) to pass away, thereby confirming that it had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.
15. You wrote: “The New Covenant is a fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant…”
My response: Yes…but NOT a termination of the Abrahamic Covenant.
AND, have you not read that the Abrahamic Covenant is to be fulfilled IN CONJUNCTION with obedience to the Torah of the Mosaic Covenant? (Dt. 6:10).
Therefore, our participation in the Abrahamic Covenant REQUIRES our participation in the Mosaic Covenant (per Dt. 6:10) as well.
16. You wrote: “The entire letter to the Hebrews clarifies and instructs on both the superiority of the New Covenant in Christ (based on better promises) and the obsolescence of the Old Covenant.”
My response: Careful! You keep making this same mistake…
The Old Covenant is obsolete…but NOT yet passed away. It is only READY (Gr. “engoos”, Heb. 8:13) to pass away, thereby confirming that it had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.
17. You wrote: “Torah, God's instructions before the Cross, were given to Israel at Sinai in the form of the Law.”
My response: And all Christians are included as fellow Israelites who partake in all the covenants between YHVH and Israel. Thus, all Christians should OBEY the Torah of these covenants in which they participate.
Moreover, AFTER the cross, the Apostles and Epistles continue to uphold and affirm our need to obey Mosaic Torah (e.g., 1 Cor. 7:19; 1 Jn. 5:3).
18. You wrote: “Torah, God's instructions after the Cross, were given to all mankind by Christ: Believe on the One God sent and love one another.”
My response: AND, the One God sent COMMANDED that we make disciples of all nations in OBEDIENCE to all of Jesus’ PRE-CROSS TEACHINGS! (Mt. 28:20).
Thus, will you obey Lk. 10:25-28? Jesus says Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life, applying Dt. 6 to YOU (see also Mt. 22:37).
HOW is this love for God to be expressed? In obedience to ALL Torah commands (Dt. 6;25), just as Jesus commanded that we obey and teach others to do likewise.
19. You wrote: “Do you live before or after the Work of Christ?”
My response: Nice try! But Jesus COMMANDED that all of His PRE-CROSS teachings be commanded to disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:20).
So, all of Jesus’ Torah-teachings remain IN FORCE.
Jesus taught OBEDIENCE to Mosaic judgments (Mt 23:2-3).
Jesus taught OBEDIENCE to greater and lesser Torah portions (Mt. 23:23).
Jesus sent forth TORAH-TEACHERS (Mt. 23:34, Gr. “grammateus”) to properly represent His ministry.
Torah-teachers do NOT teach termination of the Levitical Torah which Jesus comes to restore!
So please…convert to proper Torah-obedient ministry, consistent with the Torah-obedient ministry which our Messiah authorizes in Mt. 23:34.
20. You wrote: “The whole of Romans 8 does not support your assertion.”
My response: No! The way of the “flesh” and “spirit” are contrasted (Rom. 8:5-9).
The flesh cannot obey Torah (Rom. 8:7).
Therefore, by contrast, the way of the Spirit is to OBEY Torah.
Remember! The Spirit testifies that Torah is written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:15-17), not terminated and abolished and no longer applicable!
That Torah which is upon our hearts should be OBEYED (Dt. 30:14). Paul agrees (citing Dt. 30:14 FAVORABLY at Rom. 10:8).
(CONTINUED IN SUBSEQUENT POST)
Thank you for engaging my (BibleGuy’s) position.
I know things can get “pointed” or “heated”…but at the end of the day, I like to view us as fellow seekers of truth, seeking to grow and learn together, in the love of Jesus, our Messiah.
OK…here’s an update to our recent exchanges.
I posted 13 reasons which jointly confirm that we Christians should grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of Moses. (Post #12: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/136719-house-cornelius-law.html#post2635909 )
JGIG responded here (Post #40): http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/136719-house-cornelius-law-2.html#post2637321
In Post #45 I set forth 24 objections to JGIG's position: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/136719-house-cornelius-law-3.html#post2637594
JGIG was not able to respond (personal family reasons), except for a few comments at Post #157 (http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/136719-house-cornelius-law-8.html#post2639571)
We’ve also had an exchange here: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...any-still-asks-sin-serious-2.html#post2637399
And then here: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...any-still-asks-sin-serious-2.html#post2659399
Pending a response from her, here’s where we stand:
I have sought to answer every objection she’s raised against the Scriptural position I’ve set forth.
She has NOT answered the following 39 objections which are now on the table:
1. You (JGIG) wrote: "Torah has not ceased to exist. As a functioning, valid covenant, however, it is obsolete in Christ and His Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His Perfect, Permanent, High Priesthood. "
My response: Obsolete (Gr. verb "palaioo") but NOT yet passed away! Read again (Heb. 8:13), where it is merely READY (Gr. "engoos") to pass away, confirming that it had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.
Therefore, Torah is still in force, even during the New Covenant era, just as the remainder of Scripture also confirms.
2. You wrote: "Those who are in Christ are dead to the Law (Rom. 7:4-6)."
My response: Keep reading! The law defines sin (Rom. 7:7; also Rom. 3:20; 1 Jn. 3:4). And Paul said we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15). Thus we should NOT disobey Torah. Thus we should OBEY Torah!
3. You wrote: "Christ (of the Tribe of Judah) has been appointed as the Perfect Permanent High Priest of the New Covenant by an oath from God, replacing the Levitical priesthood, again, rendering the Old Covenant obsolete."
My response: Learn from the prophets! Christ comes to RESTORE the Levitical priesthood so that it will be pleasing to YHVH as in former years (Mal. 3).
Moses (Dt. 30:1-8), Ezekiel (Eze. 40-47), Isaiah (Is. 66:21-23), Zechariah (Zec. 14:16-21), Jeremiah (Jer. 33:17-22) likewise GUARANTEE restoration of Levitical Torah.
So let's stop misleading others by claiming the Levitical priesthood was replaced.
4. You wrote: "Have you achieved perfection yet?
Because that is the standard that Jesus sets forth in Matthew 5. Be ye perfect as God in heaven is perfect. If you don't achieve that standard, well, your own doctrine condemns you."
My response: Do YOU obey Matthew 5:48? Please learn from it.
MATTHEW 5:48 Jesus clearly views Pentateuchal Scripture as authoritative and applicable to Christians, as evidenced by His use of Ge. 1:27, Ex. 3:6, Ex. 20:12, Ex. 21:17, Lev. 19:18, Lev. 20:9, Nu. 21:9, Dt. 5:16, Dt. 6:4-5, Dt. 6:13, Dt. 6:16, Dt. 8:3, Dt. 10:20, and Dt. 19:15. Deuteronomy 18:13 shows that people should be blameless/complete/perfect (Heb. “tamim”, LXX “teleios”). Jesus also explicitly affirms that people should be perfect (Gr. “teleios”, Mt. 5:48). People who are “tamim” walk in obedience to the Torah (Ps. 19:7; Ps. 119:1). It follows that Jesus accepts that Christians should walk in obedience to the Torah.
5. You wrote: “Nope. They don't come close to your interpretation.”
My response: What? Read again! Jesus sends religious people AWAY from Him…why? Because they exemplify LAWLESSNESS (Gr. “anomia”, Mt. 7:21-23). The punishment for “anomia” is very severe in Mt. 13:41-42 as well.
So why do you oppose the law, claiming Levitical Torah is replaced?
Please, I don’t want you to be guilty of “anomia”. Stop opposing Scriptural teaching regarding Levitical Torah.
6. You wrote: “Logos refers to the Living Word, Christ, Who is God incarnate, not to Torah, which is merely part of the written Scriptures (G1124 - graphē).”
My response: Jesus equates God’s word (Gr. “logos”, Mk. 7:13) with Torah (Mk. 7:9). So, when Jesus refers to YOUR WORD (when praying to God, Jn. 17:17), He is referring that which INCLUDES Torah (per Jesus’ own use of “logos” in, for example, Mk. 7:9-13).
So let’s not pretend that God’s “word” in Jn. 17:17 somehow excludes Torah.
Let’s not oppose Jesus’ OWN usage of the term “logos”. Jesus uses “logos” to refer to Torah.
Moreover, Jesus says the Psalms are Scripture (Gr. “graphe”, Jn. 10:34-35) which cannot be broken. And, Psalms require Torah (Ps. 1; Ps. 19; Ps. 119). And Torah requires Levitical sacrificial activity.
So again, we have found Jesus AFFIRMING the perpetuity (not replacement!) of Levitical Torah.
7. You wrote: “Obeying every commandment that applies to you 100% of the time? That is the standard that Jesus sets forth, yes?”
My response: You now agree Jesus taught us to obey all applicable and properly observable Torah? Good!
8. You wrote: “Tell us, how were the recent festivities in Jerusalem this past April? I hear it's lovely there this time of year! Did you bring your sacrifice to Jerusalem?”
My response: Why presuppose Levitical/sacrificial/ceremonial Torah is presently observable during this present diaspora?
Have you not read that ALL Torah commands will be observed only AFTER we again return to the land? (Dt. 30:1-8).
Thus we first return to YHVH in obedience to Torah commands (Dt. 30:2), then we return to the land (Dt. 30:5), and THEN we can again fully obey 100% of Torah.
So, obey all Torah that you can right now! Prepare to obey ALL Torah in the future! (Just as Moses prophesied.)
9. You wrote: “If Torah Law is still in force, there must be an active Levitial Priesthood through whom you can present your sacrifices and offerings to God, yes? It's not like Levites can't be located today…”
My response: No…Moses said we will return to obey Torah (Dt. 30:2), but not ALL Torah (Dt. 30:8) until after we return to the LAND (Dt. 30:5).
Let’s get that order really clear in our minds.
And we both know that there is no functioning tabernacle, presently, in Jerusalem…so we both know that Levitical/sacrificial/ceremonial Torah is not presently observed/observable.
But that’s no excuse to oppose the abundance of Scriptures which confirm the forthcoming restoration of this Levitical Torah.
And, that’s no excuse to NOT obey Torah portions which ARE presently observable!
10. You wrote: “Again, you err in assigning 'Torah' where a living expression of God's Word is defined:
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” (from Mt. 4)
The Greek for 'word' in that verse is G4487 - rhēma, which is the living voice, or word, of God, not the Torah, or 'graphe' of God, which is part of the written Scriptures (see above).”
My response: You are wrong! The term “rhema” is straight out of Dt. 8:3 (which Jesus was quoting!). Read it in the LXX, and you’ll see! The LXX uses “rhema” (Dt. 8:3) to refer to that which comes from YHVH’s mouth. This is TORAH!
And, there is nothing in Jn. 5:39 that says that “rhema” cannot be used to refer to Torah.
Yikes!
Please correct your error.
Jesus quotes Dt. 8:3 (Mt. 4:4) referring to TORAH…this is how we LIVE, according to Jesus.
Why would you oppose the Torah by which Jesus said we live?
11. You wrote: “And what were they not believing?
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (from Jn. 6)”
My response: AND! If we believe in Jesus, then we should OBEY His teachings.
AND, what did Jesus teach?
That our eternal life depends upon obedience to Torah! (Lk. 10:25-28).
That our position in the coming kingdom depends upon our Torah-teaching and Torah-obedience (Mt. 5:19).
That those who oppose Torah (exemplifying “anomia”, lawlessness) will be cast away (Mt. 7:21-23; 13:41-42).
So yes! Please BELIEVE even in the teachings of this Messiah Jesus, Whom God has sent, Who comes to RESTORE even the Levitical priesthood (Mal. 3).
STOP opposing the restoration which our Messiah comes to bring forth.
12. You wrote: “The Psalms require obedience to the covenant in force at the time.”
My response: Jesus said the Psalms CANNOT be set aside. Thus, the Torah-obedient Psalms are STILL in force.
Thus, I use the Torah-obedient Psalms to ADMONISH (Gr. “nutheteo”) you to obey the Torah of those very Psalms, just as Paul requires (Col. 3:16).
And, Heb. 8:13 confirms that Torah persists even during the New Covenant Era.
AND, Jer. 31:33 has TORAH passing directly into the New Covenant.
So, even if you want to (wrongly) pretend that the Mosaic Covenant is no longer in force…the TORAH of that covenant still passes directly into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33). Thus, you still have not justified your opposition to the Levitical Torah which passes directly into the New Covenant Torah, per Jer. 31:33.
13. You wrote: “The instructions about how to enter into and stay in covenant with God are quite different from the Abrahamic to the Sinaitic to the New Covenants.”
My response: All the covenants (plural! Eph. 2:12) are still in force. No Torah from any of the covenants has been terminated. We participate in these covenants. Thus, we OBEY the Torah of the covenants in which we participate.
14. You wrote: “After the Cross, the New Covenant, ratified by the Blood of Christ, God Himself in the flesh, is in effect, rendering the Old Covenant obsolete, and is entered into by faith and maintained by our Perfect, Permanent High Priest, Christ Jesus.”
My response: Obsolete…but NOT yet passed away. It is only READY (Gr. “engoos”, Heb. 8:13) to pass away, thereby confirming that it had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.
15. You wrote: “The New Covenant is a fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant…”
My response: Yes…but NOT a termination of the Abrahamic Covenant.
AND, have you not read that the Abrahamic Covenant is to be fulfilled IN CONJUNCTION with obedience to the Torah of the Mosaic Covenant? (Dt. 6:10).
Therefore, our participation in the Abrahamic Covenant REQUIRES our participation in the Mosaic Covenant (per Dt. 6:10) as well.
16. You wrote: “The entire letter to the Hebrews clarifies and instructs on both the superiority of the New Covenant in Christ (based on better promises) and the obsolescence of the Old Covenant.”
My response: Careful! You keep making this same mistake…
The Old Covenant is obsolete…but NOT yet passed away. It is only READY (Gr. “engoos”, Heb. 8:13) to pass away, thereby confirming that it had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.
17. You wrote: “Torah, God's instructions before the Cross, were given to Israel at Sinai in the form of the Law.”
My response: And all Christians are included as fellow Israelites who partake in all the covenants between YHVH and Israel. Thus, all Christians should OBEY the Torah of these covenants in which they participate.
Moreover, AFTER the cross, the Apostles and Epistles continue to uphold and affirm our need to obey Mosaic Torah (e.g., 1 Cor. 7:19; 1 Jn. 5:3).
18. You wrote: “Torah, God's instructions after the Cross, were given to all mankind by Christ: Believe on the One God sent and love one another.”
My response: AND, the One God sent COMMANDED that we make disciples of all nations in OBEDIENCE to all of Jesus’ PRE-CROSS TEACHINGS! (Mt. 28:20).
Thus, will you obey Lk. 10:25-28? Jesus says Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life, applying Dt. 6 to YOU (see also Mt. 22:37).
HOW is this love for God to be expressed? In obedience to ALL Torah commands (Dt. 6;25), just as Jesus commanded that we obey and teach others to do likewise.
19. You wrote: “Do you live before or after the Work of Christ?”
My response: Nice try! But Jesus COMMANDED that all of His PRE-CROSS teachings be commanded to disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:20).
So, all of Jesus’ Torah-teachings remain IN FORCE.
Jesus taught OBEDIENCE to Mosaic judgments (Mt 23:2-3).
Jesus taught OBEDIENCE to greater and lesser Torah portions (Mt. 23:23).
Jesus sent forth TORAH-TEACHERS (Mt. 23:34, Gr. “grammateus”) to properly represent His ministry.
Torah-teachers do NOT teach termination of the Levitical Torah which Jesus comes to restore!
So please…convert to proper Torah-obedient ministry, consistent with the Torah-obedient ministry which our Messiah authorizes in Mt. 23:34.
20. You wrote: “The whole of Romans 8 does not support your assertion.”
My response: No! The way of the “flesh” and “spirit” are contrasted (Rom. 8:5-9).
The flesh cannot obey Torah (Rom. 8:7).
Therefore, by contrast, the way of the Spirit is to OBEY Torah.
Remember! The Spirit testifies that Torah is written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:15-17), not terminated and abolished and no longer applicable!
That Torah which is upon our hearts should be OBEYED (Dt. 30:14). Paul agrees (citing Dt. 30:14 FAVORABLY at Rom. 10:8).
(CONTINUED IN SUBSEQUENT POST)
(CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST #566)
21. You wrote: “Galatians 5 clearly tells us that your assertion is in error, for if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law (Gal. 5:18).”
My response: No! Paul criticizes the Galatians because they seek justification by law without faith (Gal. 5:4-5).
So, you have not even understood my position.
Moreover, when Paul says we are not “under law” (Rom. 6:15), he also says we should NOT sin!
What is sin? Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4).
Thus, even though we are not “under the law” in the technical sense Paul discusses, we should nevertheless still NOT sin, which means NOT disobey Torah, which means OBEY TORAH!
So let’s obey Torah in faith…just as Paul taught us to do…and just as Paul modeled in his own life.
22. You wrote: “Those who are in Christ and go back to the Law walk in Spiritual adultery, having died to the Law in order to be joined to Christ…”
My response: Careful! Paul criticizes FAITHLESS Torah-obedience…not FAITHFUL Torah-obedience.
Moreover, you’ve got the “spiritual adultery” concept backwards. Spiritual adultery (Heb. “zanah”, e.g., Ex. 34:15-16) refers to those who walk away from YHVH and follows the ways of other (false) gods.
Spiritual adultery is NOT obeying the Torah which is commanded by the Father, Son, Spirit, Torah, Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Apostles, and Epistles!
I never said anyone should go “back to the law” without Christ. Of course that would be bad.
23. You wrote: “So you're teaching folks to go back to that which stirs up sin and bears fruit unto death, when those in Christ have been released from the Law so that we serve in the NEW WAY of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.”
My response: No! I’m teaching people to obey the Torah commanded by the Father, Son, Spirit, Torah, Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Apostles, and Epistles! This includes the Torah of Moses.
Now, law WITHOUT FAITH stirs up sin and bears fruit unto death.
But now, with faith in the Messiah, we are free from the sin which bears fruit unto death.
Is that an excuse to oppose the very Torah which Jesus applies to us (Mt. 22:37 applies Dt. 6 to us)?
Of course not…
We serve in newness of the Spirit…
And what does this Spirit testify? That Torah is written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:15-17), NOT abolished or terminated or no longer applicable!
That which is upon our hearts should be OBEYED, not ignored as if no longer in force.
24. Do you teach people to OBEY or DISOBEY Lev. 18:23?
If OBEY, then Torah still applies to us.
If DISOBEY, then we've got some SERIOUS problems here…
Which horn of this dilemma will you take?
25. You wrote: "Your objections and conclusions are based on your repeated use of Scriptures that don't say what you say they say or that are out of context."
My response: Please substantiate this claim...or retract it. Until then, it is merely an unsupported allegation. I see no good reason to believe it.
26. You wrote: "You consistently attempt to apply Jesus' teaching of the Law to those under Law to New Covenant Believers who are dead to the Law."
My response:Jesus COMMANDS us to apply ALL of His PRE-CROSS teachings/commands to ALL disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:20). So of course I choose to believe that Jesus’ teachings actually apply to us! (Is it really to much to ask? Can we actually believe that Jesus’ teachings actually apply to us? I hope that’s not too much to ask!)
Furthermore, Paul (who said we are dead to the Law) also obeyed Torah, even taking a vow to prove His Torah-obedience (Ac. 21), and Paul taught us to do likewise (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).
And let’s be clear: My position is that Christians should grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of the Torah-laden covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, and New Covenants) in which they participate.
So, why pretend that you can use Paul (e.g., Rom. 7) to support your critique of my position, when my position is virtually logically required from the conjunction of Rom. 3:20; Rom. 6:15; and Rom. 7:7? That is: Sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7), and Paul said “don’t sin” (Rom. 6:15), therefore Paul taught us to NOT disobey Torah, therefore Paul taught us to OBEY Torah. Thus my position is confirmed by the very same author (Paul) and letter (to the Romans) which you vainly seek to use to disconfirm my Scriptural position.
Does Paul’s “dead to law” concept really mean that Christians need not obey law? Of course not. Law (Heb. “Torah”) passes DIRECTLY into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33). That’s why New Covenant participants should obey Torah.
Additionally, we who “die to the law” are expected to bear FRUIT (Rom. 7:4), and this includes the fruit of faithfulness (Gr. “pistis”, Gal. 5:22). Paul equates “pistis” (Gal. 3:11) with “emunah” (Hab. 2:4). And what is this way of “emunah”? TORAH! (see “emunah” in Ps. 119:30,86,138). Thus, Paul AGREES that those who “die to the law” should exemplify the fruit of “emunah” which includes TORAH! Again, the very passage you cite (Rom. 7) leads us straight back to Torah! Please stop opposing the fruit of faithful Torah-obedience which Paul expects us to EXEMPLIFY (not to OPPOSE!).
27. You wrote: “Then you twist the clear meaning of Rom. 7:1-6 into an interpretation about God being able to remarry Israel who He divorced.”
My response: I don’t remember telling that to you. When did I ever tell you this? Again, please retract this unsubstantiated accusation, or else show me the evidence (in case I forgot?)
28. You wrote: “Scripture tells us that Christ is the Perfect, FOREVER High Priest, appointed by an oath from God."
My response: Great! That gives us no reason to suppose that Levitical sacrifices will not (or should not) be restored, just as the prophets (Is. 66; Jer. 33; Dt. 30; Eze. 40-47; Zec. 14; Mal. 3) guarantee they will (and SHOULD!) be restored. Right?
29. You wrote: "The letter to the Hebrews tells us that the Tribe of Judah cannot legally serve in the Old Covenant - New Priesthood, New Law (Heb. 7-10)."
My response: What scripture, specifically? You haven't supported your position.
And, I never said that those of JUDAH will be performing the sacrifices which those of LEVI are commaned (in Torah) to perform. So what's the problem?
Furthermore, Heb. 8:13 PROVES Old Covenant AND New Covenant function SIMULTANEOUSLY.
Remember? The Old Covenant is READY (Gr. "engoos", Heb. 8:13) to pass away, thereby confirming that it had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.
So, the very chapters you've referenced (i.e., Heb. 7-10), simply confirm my position, and disconfirm yours.
AND, Heb. 8:10 brings Torah straight into the New Covenant! So let's not pretend that Levitical Torah is somehow inapplicable in the New Covenant, when Heb. 8:10 FLATLY contradicts such a claim. (remember? "TORAH", Jer. 31:33).
30. You wrote: "Christ's High Priesthood is not going away."
My response: Great! And Levitical Torah can function simultaneously! After all, the Messiah comes to RESTORE Levitical Torah so that the Torah offerings may be pleasing to YHVH as in the days of old as in former years (Mal. 3:1-4).
Do you now stand opposed to this Levitical-Torah-Restoration purpose of our Messiah?
Yikes! You REALLY need to revise your position.
31. You wrote: "Please explain to us how the Levitical and the High Priesthood of Christ will simultaneously exist."
My response: Please explain why you think the Melchizedek and Levitical priesthoods can not simultaneously function! After all, the Melchizedek priesthood existed since BEFORE Levitical Torah was instituted...and it CONCURRENTLY existed throughout the time of Moses and beyond...even to today.
So again, there's your proof that they both function simultaneously.
32. You wrote: "Please explain to us Christ's role in the system you assert."
My response: Christ comes to RESTORE Levitical Torah (Mal. 3:1-4). I never said that Christ will be personally doing what only the Levites shall be doing in that system He comes to restore.
AND, Christ comes to REBUILD the temple (Zec. 6:12-13). Guess what happens in the temple? Torah! Yes...even LEVITICAL Torah (even though your mistaken theology apparently prevents you from accepting this right now.)
33. You wrote: "Please explain to us using contextual Scripture why you think God will accept animal and other sacrifices in light of Christ's Perfect, Once for all, sacrifice. What is still needed to make folks acceptable before God? Remember - use CONTEXTUAL Scripture which takes into account the Work of Christ."
My response: Why assume any contextual Scripture OPPOSES the restoration of sacrifices in light of the Scriptures I've already cited?
I already showed that the Messiah comes to restore Levitical Torah (Mal. 3:1-4).
Remember Dt. 30:1-8? We repent, we return to the land, and then we again obey 100% of Torah (per Moses' prophecy). Do you stand opposed to this prophecy too?
Zec. 14 ---> A FUTURE prophecy, where representatives from all nations come to participate in the sacrifice-laden SUKKOT.
Eze. 40-47 ---> A FUTURE prophecy with LOADS of Levitical-ceremonial-sacrificial activity.
Jer. 33 ---> A FUTURE prophecy regarding the greater forthcoming fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant, which is GUARANTEED to be accompanied by LEVITICAL restoration!
Is. 66 ---> A FUTURE prophecy guaranteeing Levitical priesthood restoration.
Mal. 3 ---> A prophecy proving the Messiah's Levitical RESTORATION PURPOSE (which you evidently oppose).
Do you REALLY want to be opposing all these prophets?
Sure, Christ's perfect once-for-all sacrifice is awesome!
And, that's what makes us permanently acceptable before God.
But that's no excuse to ignore the prophets which PROMISE that even our Messiah plays a role in Levitical sacrificial Torah restoration.
Now YOU need to explain to us why you oppose all these prophets...
Why do you oppose the prophets?
34. You wrote: "How is operating in an obsolete covenant serving God in 'greater fullness', when the Scriptures are clear that the New Covenant is superior in every way to the Old Covenant?"
My response: Sure, the New Covenant is superior...but that doesn't prove they can't (or won't) both simultaneously function.
Moreover, I already showed you that the Old Covenant is "obsolete", but NOT yet passed away. (Remember Heb. 8:13?)
And how is Levitical-sacrificial-restoration a "greater fullness"?
Well obviously, we presently can not obey 100% of Torah (because Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled). SO, when Dt. 30:1-8 is finally fulfilled, THEN we will again obey ALL Torah. ("ALL" is a greater fullness than "some"...hence the "greater fullness" which is forthcoming.)
35. You wrote: "Perhaps sacrifices are coming back - indeed there are those who have a Temple ready to assemble, Levitical priestly garb ready to go, and Levites in line to serve in the Temple.
And if it happens, it will NOT be of God."
My response: When sacrifices are restored (per the prophets which GUARANTEE it), then it will be of God AND of the Messiah! (as I've shown).
Please engage my objections here...or else revise your position which I've now shown to be FLATLY opposed to the prophets.
36. You wrote: "If sacrifices happen in a Temple in Jerusalem, it will be an absolute abomination to God, Who has rendered the sacrificial and Temple system obsolete in Christ, making Him the Perfect, Permanent High Priest of the New Covenant, which is built on better promises (see the entirety of the letter to the Hebrews)."
My response: To the contrary, WHEN sacrifices happen again (according to the prophets who guarantee it!), it will be GOOD! It will be an expression of our repentance, and having FULLY turned to God (Dt. 30:1-8).
It will occur in conjunction with fulfillment of the Abrahamic land-promise (Dt. 6:10,25), in which we share an inheritance.
So, your reading of Hebrews fails to account for the Scriptural objections I've raised against it.
Please change your position to come into alignment with Scripture.
37. You wrote: "Please explain to us how it's a good idea to bring back a weak and useless covenantal system when we have Christ, Who is the guarantor of a better covenant built on better promises."
My response: Why assume it's NOT a good idea to restore what Christ comes to restore (Mal. 3:1-4) in fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant (Dt. 6:10,25), and the Davidic Covenant (Jer. 33:15-22), and the Mosaic Covenant (Dt. 30:1-8)?
Sure, the New Covenant is better than the Old. But that's no excuse to ignore the prophets.
Now...WHY does God do this? Ask Him! I won't pretend to always understand WHY God does what He does...after all, His ways are ABOVE ours....(Is. 55:9; Rom. 11:33).
38. You wrote: “Your teaching renders the Work of Christ and what it accomplished as nothing and is Torah-centric, not centered on Christ, which classifies what you teach as heresy.”
My response: Of course, I could respond that your anti-Torah position is heresy because it opposes the teachings/commands of the Father, Son, Spirit, Pentateuch, Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Apostles, Epistles, and even Revelation.
I could even say your position is anti-Christ! After all, Christ is pro-Torah, and the anti-Christ is anti-Torah…and JGIG is anti-Torah…hmmm….looks like you’re on the wrong side.
And why assume my teaching renders the work of Christ and what it accomplished as nothing?
Please substantiate this claim, or retract it. It remains unsupported.
39. And why assume that a Torah-centric teaching is not also a Christ-centered teaching? After all, I maintain that Torah and Christ are consistent. Indeed, Christ IS the Torah-made-flesh, so there can not possibly be a conflict between Christ and Torah! AND, you have (yet again) failed to set forth evidence to support your apparent allegation that they (Christ and Torah) are inconsistent. So yet again, please retract this unsubstantiated claim, or else justify it.
The accusation of “heresy” is, after all, a pretty serious claim to bring forth against someone you don’t know…against someone whose position you don’t understand…against someone whose position you have misrepresented…and against someone whose counter-arguments you have not even addressed!
Trust me…there are (literally) thousands and thousands of inter-related and intricately connected evidential considerations which jointly support my position (and disconfirm yours). And, since you are evidently aware of virtually NONE of this evidence…well…it’s quite surprising you can so confidently proclaim my “heresy”, when you don’t even know my position!
Yikes! I hope you are truly a seeker of truth…rather than another propagandist who intends to manifest the IRTL spirit (see Post #130 for details: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/136719-house-cornelius-law-7.html#post2638964 ).
If you are not able to defend your position against the 39 objections I’ve raised, then why would you continue to teach it?
Remember the consequences of anti-Torah teaching? (Mt. 5:19)
Why would you want that?
best…
BibleGuy
21. You wrote: “Galatians 5 clearly tells us that your assertion is in error, for if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law (Gal. 5:18).”
My response: No! Paul criticizes the Galatians because they seek justification by law without faith (Gal. 5:4-5).
So, you have not even understood my position.
Moreover, when Paul says we are not “under law” (Rom. 6:15), he also says we should NOT sin!
What is sin? Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4).
Thus, even though we are not “under the law” in the technical sense Paul discusses, we should nevertheless still NOT sin, which means NOT disobey Torah, which means OBEY TORAH!
So let’s obey Torah in faith…just as Paul taught us to do…and just as Paul modeled in his own life.
22. You wrote: “Those who are in Christ and go back to the Law walk in Spiritual adultery, having died to the Law in order to be joined to Christ…”
My response: Careful! Paul criticizes FAITHLESS Torah-obedience…not FAITHFUL Torah-obedience.
Moreover, you’ve got the “spiritual adultery” concept backwards. Spiritual adultery (Heb. “zanah”, e.g., Ex. 34:15-16) refers to those who walk away from YHVH and follows the ways of other (false) gods.
Spiritual adultery is NOT obeying the Torah which is commanded by the Father, Son, Spirit, Torah, Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Apostles, and Epistles!
I never said anyone should go “back to the law” without Christ. Of course that would be bad.
23. You wrote: “So you're teaching folks to go back to that which stirs up sin and bears fruit unto death, when those in Christ have been released from the Law so that we serve in the NEW WAY of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.”
My response: No! I’m teaching people to obey the Torah commanded by the Father, Son, Spirit, Torah, Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Apostles, and Epistles! This includes the Torah of Moses.
Now, law WITHOUT FAITH stirs up sin and bears fruit unto death.
But now, with faith in the Messiah, we are free from the sin which bears fruit unto death.
Is that an excuse to oppose the very Torah which Jesus applies to us (Mt. 22:37 applies Dt. 6 to us)?
Of course not…
We serve in newness of the Spirit…
And what does this Spirit testify? That Torah is written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:15-17), NOT abolished or terminated or no longer applicable!
That which is upon our hearts should be OBEYED, not ignored as if no longer in force.
24. Do you teach people to OBEY or DISOBEY Lev. 18:23?
If OBEY, then Torah still applies to us.
If DISOBEY, then we've got some SERIOUS problems here…
Which horn of this dilemma will you take?
25. You wrote: "Your objections and conclusions are based on your repeated use of Scriptures that don't say what you say they say or that are out of context."
My response: Please substantiate this claim...or retract it. Until then, it is merely an unsupported allegation. I see no good reason to believe it.
26. You wrote: "You consistently attempt to apply Jesus' teaching of the Law to those under Law to New Covenant Believers who are dead to the Law."
My response:Jesus COMMANDS us to apply ALL of His PRE-CROSS teachings/commands to ALL disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:20). So of course I choose to believe that Jesus’ teachings actually apply to us! (Is it really to much to ask? Can we actually believe that Jesus’ teachings actually apply to us? I hope that’s not too much to ask!)
Furthermore, Paul (who said we are dead to the Law) also obeyed Torah, even taking a vow to prove His Torah-obedience (Ac. 21), and Paul taught us to do likewise (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).
And let’s be clear: My position is that Christians should grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of the Torah-laden covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, and New Covenants) in which they participate.
So, why pretend that you can use Paul (e.g., Rom. 7) to support your critique of my position, when my position is virtually logically required from the conjunction of Rom. 3:20; Rom. 6:15; and Rom. 7:7? That is: Sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7), and Paul said “don’t sin” (Rom. 6:15), therefore Paul taught us to NOT disobey Torah, therefore Paul taught us to OBEY Torah. Thus my position is confirmed by the very same author (Paul) and letter (to the Romans) which you vainly seek to use to disconfirm my Scriptural position.
Does Paul’s “dead to law” concept really mean that Christians need not obey law? Of course not. Law (Heb. “Torah”) passes DIRECTLY into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33). That’s why New Covenant participants should obey Torah.
Additionally, we who “die to the law” are expected to bear FRUIT (Rom. 7:4), and this includes the fruit of faithfulness (Gr. “pistis”, Gal. 5:22). Paul equates “pistis” (Gal. 3:11) with “emunah” (Hab. 2:4). And what is this way of “emunah”? TORAH! (see “emunah” in Ps. 119:30,86,138). Thus, Paul AGREES that those who “die to the law” should exemplify the fruit of “emunah” which includes TORAH! Again, the very passage you cite (Rom. 7) leads us straight back to Torah! Please stop opposing the fruit of faithful Torah-obedience which Paul expects us to EXEMPLIFY (not to OPPOSE!).
27. You wrote: “Then you twist the clear meaning of Rom. 7:1-6 into an interpretation about God being able to remarry Israel who He divorced.”
My response: I don’t remember telling that to you. When did I ever tell you this? Again, please retract this unsubstantiated accusation, or else show me the evidence (in case I forgot?)
28. You wrote: “Scripture tells us that Christ is the Perfect, FOREVER High Priest, appointed by an oath from God."
My response: Great! That gives us no reason to suppose that Levitical sacrifices will not (or should not) be restored, just as the prophets (Is. 66; Jer. 33; Dt. 30; Eze. 40-47; Zec. 14; Mal. 3) guarantee they will (and SHOULD!) be restored. Right?
29. You wrote: "The letter to the Hebrews tells us that the Tribe of Judah cannot legally serve in the Old Covenant - New Priesthood, New Law (Heb. 7-10)."
My response: What scripture, specifically? You haven't supported your position.
And, I never said that those of JUDAH will be performing the sacrifices which those of LEVI are commaned (in Torah) to perform. So what's the problem?
Furthermore, Heb. 8:13 PROVES Old Covenant AND New Covenant function SIMULTANEOUSLY.
Remember? The Old Covenant is READY (Gr. "engoos", Heb. 8:13) to pass away, thereby confirming that it had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.
So, the very chapters you've referenced (i.e., Heb. 7-10), simply confirm my position, and disconfirm yours.
AND, Heb. 8:10 brings Torah straight into the New Covenant! So let's not pretend that Levitical Torah is somehow inapplicable in the New Covenant, when Heb. 8:10 FLATLY contradicts such a claim. (remember? "TORAH", Jer. 31:33).
30. You wrote: "Christ's High Priesthood is not going away."
My response: Great! And Levitical Torah can function simultaneously! After all, the Messiah comes to RESTORE Levitical Torah so that the Torah offerings may be pleasing to YHVH as in the days of old as in former years (Mal. 3:1-4).
Do you now stand opposed to this Levitical-Torah-Restoration purpose of our Messiah?
Yikes! You REALLY need to revise your position.
31. You wrote: "Please explain to us how the Levitical and the High Priesthood of Christ will simultaneously exist."
My response: Please explain why you think the Melchizedek and Levitical priesthoods can not simultaneously function! After all, the Melchizedek priesthood existed since BEFORE Levitical Torah was instituted...and it CONCURRENTLY existed throughout the time of Moses and beyond...even to today.
So again, there's your proof that they both function simultaneously.
32. You wrote: "Please explain to us Christ's role in the system you assert."
My response: Christ comes to RESTORE Levitical Torah (Mal. 3:1-4). I never said that Christ will be personally doing what only the Levites shall be doing in that system He comes to restore.
AND, Christ comes to REBUILD the temple (Zec. 6:12-13). Guess what happens in the temple? Torah! Yes...even LEVITICAL Torah (even though your mistaken theology apparently prevents you from accepting this right now.)
33. You wrote: "Please explain to us using contextual Scripture why you think God will accept animal and other sacrifices in light of Christ's Perfect, Once for all, sacrifice. What is still needed to make folks acceptable before God? Remember - use CONTEXTUAL Scripture which takes into account the Work of Christ."
My response: Why assume any contextual Scripture OPPOSES the restoration of sacrifices in light of the Scriptures I've already cited?
I already showed that the Messiah comes to restore Levitical Torah (Mal. 3:1-4).
Remember Dt. 30:1-8? We repent, we return to the land, and then we again obey 100% of Torah (per Moses' prophecy). Do you stand opposed to this prophecy too?
Zec. 14 ---> A FUTURE prophecy, where representatives from all nations come to participate in the sacrifice-laden SUKKOT.
Eze. 40-47 ---> A FUTURE prophecy with LOADS of Levitical-ceremonial-sacrificial activity.
Jer. 33 ---> A FUTURE prophecy regarding the greater forthcoming fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant, which is GUARANTEED to be accompanied by LEVITICAL restoration!
Is. 66 ---> A FUTURE prophecy guaranteeing Levitical priesthood restoration.
Mal. 3 ---> A prophecy proving the Messiah's Levitical RESTORATION PURPOSE (which you evidently oppose).
Do you REALLY want to be opposing all these prophets?
Sure, Christ's perfect once-for-all sacrifice is awesome!
And, that's what makes us permanently acceptable before God.
But that's no excuse to ignore the prophets which PROMISE that even our Messiah plays a role in Levitical sacrificial Torah restoration.
Now YOU need to explain to us why you oppose all these prophets...
Why do you oppose the prophets?
34. You wrote: "How is operating in an obsolete covenant serving God in 'greater fullness', when the Scriptures are clear that the New Covenant is superior in every way to the Old Covenant?"
My response: Sure, the New Covenant is superior...but that doesn't prove they can't (or won't) both simultaneously function.
Moreover, I already showed you that the Old Covenant is "obsolete", but NOT yet passed away. (Remember Heb. 8:13?)
And how is Levitical-sacrificial-restoration a "greater fullness"?
Well obviously, we presently can not obey 100% of Torah (because Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled). SO, when Dt. 30:1-8 is finally fulfilled, THEN we will again obey ALL Torah. ("ALL" is a greater fullness than "some"...hence the "greater fullness" which is forthcoming.)
35. You wrote: "Perhaps sacrifices are coming back - indeed there are those who have a Temple ready to assemble, Levitical priestly garb ready to go, and Levites in line to serve in the Temple.
And if it happens, it will NOT be of God."
My response: When sacrifices are restored (per the prophets which GUARANTEE it), then it will be of God AND of the Messiah! (as I've shown).
Please engage my objections here...or else revise your position which I've now shown to be FLATLY opposed to the prophets.
36. You wrote: "If sacrifices happen in a Temple in Jerusalem, it will be an absolute abomination to God, Who has rendered the sacrificial and Temple system obsolete in Christ, making Him the Perfect, Permanent High Priest of the New Covenant, which is built on better promises (see the entirety of the letter to the Hebrews)."
My response: To the contrary, WHEN sacrifices happen again (according to the prophets who guarantee it!), it will be GOOD! It will be an expression of our repentance, and having FULLY turned to God (Dt. 30:1-8).
It will occur in conjunction with fulfillment of the Abrahamic land-promise (Dt. 6:10,25), in which we share an inheritance.
So, your reading of Hebrews fails to account for the Scriptural objections I've raised against it.
Please change your position to come into alignment with Scripture.
37. You wrote: "Please explain to us how it's a good idea to bring back a weak and useless covenantal system when we have Christ, Who is the guarantor of a better covenant built on better promises."
My response: Why assume it's NOT a good idea to restore what Christ comes to restore (Mal. 3:1-4) in fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant (Dt. 6:10,25), and the Davidic Covenant (Jer. 33:15-22), and the Mosaic Covenant (Dt. 30:1-8)?
Sure, the New Covenant is better than the Old. But that's no excuse to ignore the prophets.
Now...WHY does God do this? Ask Him! I won't pretend to always understand WHY God does what He does...after all, His ways are ABOVE ours....(Is. 55:9; Rom. 11:33).
38. You wrote: “Your teaching renders the Work of Christ and what it accomplished as nothing and is Torah-centric, not centered on Christ, which classifies what you teach as heresy.”
My response: Of course, I could respond that your anti-Torah position is heresy because it opposes the teachings/commands of the Father, Son, Spirit, Pentateuch, Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Apostles, Epistles, and even Revelation.
I could even say your position is anti-Christ! After all, Christ is pro-Torah, and the anti-Christ is anti-Torah…and JGIG is anti-Torah…hmmm….looks like you’re on the wrong side.
And why assume my teaching renders the work of Christ and what it accomplished as nothing?
Please substantiate this claim, or retract it. It remains unsupported.
39. And why assume that a Torah-centric teaching is not also a Christ-centered teaching? After all, I maintain that Torah and Christ are consistent. Indeed, Christ IS the Torah-made-flesh, so there can not possibly be a conflict between Christ and Torah! AND, you have (yet again) failed to set forth evidence to support your apparent allegation that they (Christ and Torah) are inconsistent. So yet again, please retract this unsubstantiated claim, or else justify it.
The accusation of “heresy” is, after all, a pretty serious claim to bring forth against someone you don’t know…against someone whose position you don’t understand…against someone whose position you have misrepresented…and against someone whose counter-arguments you have not even addressed!
Trust me…there are (literally) thousands and thousands of inter-related and intricately connected evidential considerations which jointly support my position (and disconfirm yours). And, since you are evidently aware of virtually NONE of this evidence…well…it’s quite surprising you can so confidently proclaim my “heresy”, when you don’t even know my position!
Yikes! I hope you are truly a seeker of truth…rather than another propagandist who intends to manifest the IRTL spirit (see Post #130 for details: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/136719-house-cornelius-law-7.html#post2638964 ).
If you are not able to defend your position against the 39 objections I’ve raised, then why would you continue to teach it?
Remember the consequences of anti-Torah teaching? (Mt. 5:19)
Why would you want that?
best…
BibleGuy
after all that copy and pasted above, why can t you see a saviour
21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.Galatians 2
11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."Acts 15
15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.Hebrews 9
8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles),Galatians 2
this ministry was making christian believers.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.Galatians 3: By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.Galatians 2
11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."Acts 15
15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.Hebrews 9
8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles),Galatians 2
this ministry was making christian believers.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.Galatians 3: By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
Last edited:
thank you. bless you.
the point is how he became (15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, )
6 he says:
"It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth."Isaiah 49: The Servant of the LORD
For God So Loved the World
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through himJohn 3:
redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.Hebrews 9
we were not born into a old covenant, we were born into a new covenant. etc
new testament, mean also a new covenant.
the bible explains the change over. etc
the point is how he became (15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, )
6 he says:
"It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth."Isaiah 49: The Servant of the LORD
For God So Loved the World
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through himJohn 3:
redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.Hebrews 9
we were not born into a old covenant, we were born into a new covenant. etc
new testament, mean also a new covenant.
the bible explains the change over. etc
Yes...thank you.
And what surprises many of us is this: BOTH Covenants (in fact ALL the covenants) are still in force, awaiting even greater future fulfillment:
Abrahamic Covenant
Mosaic Covenant
Levitical Covenant
Davidic Covenant
New Covenant
Turns out...none of these covenants is fully fulfilled. And, ALL of these will be more fully fulfilled in the future.
So, since none of these covenants is abolished, we obey the Torah of ALL these covenants in which we participate.
But yes, the New Covenant is definitely better than the "old" (i.e., Mosaic Covenant) in various respects.
blessings...
BibleGuy
And what surprises many of us is this: BOTH Covenants (in fact ALL the covenants) are still in force, awaiting even greater future fulfillment:
Abrahamic Covenant
Mosaic Covenant
Levitical Covenant
Davidic Covenant
New Covenant
Turns out...none of these covenants is fully fulfilled. And, ALL of these will be more fully fulfilled in the future.
So, since none of these covenants is abolished, we obey the Torah of ALL these covenants in which we participate.
But yes, the New Covenant is definitely better than the "old" (i.e., Mosaic Covenant) in various respects.
blessings...
BibleGuy