Verse for "once saved always saved"?
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Did I say - "that he would not know in the beginning that the person would walk away"?
Being omniscient (knowing all things), I believe God would know if the person would walk away or not.
(I'm afraid we are not understanding each other again. Honestly, I have no idea how you got the implication that I would think that "God would not know in the beginning that the person would walk away.")
This is interesting conversation . . .
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So do I, And in my view, That would prove a person never had true faith in God to begin with. Not to mention, It would mean God gave a person he KNEW was going to be an antichrist something he called a gift, and eternal. Which would damage his reputation if he did not keep his promise in spite of the persons lack of faith..
I just wonder why you would think God would give a gift he called "eternal" Life and the assurance and seal of the Holy Spirit. to someone he knows lacks faith. and will turn from him and eventually reject him outright.
Belief in God and faith in God are not the same..
I just wonder why you would think God would give a gift he called "eternal" Life and the assurance and seal of the Holy Spirit. to someone he knows lacks faith. and will turn from him and eventually reject him outright.
Belief in God and faith in God are not the same..
Ah! I think we are getting somewhere now; or at least I get what you are saying - I don' agree with everything, but the context of it makes sense!
You said first: "I agree" : I assume you meant that you agree that John 10:29 does not clearly, outrightly say "once saved always saved". But I assume your "I agree" means that you see my idea of the verse as "my interpretation". You don't agree with me about the interpretation of the verse; you would interpret it differently than I do. Am I right about what you meant by "I agree"?
The rest of what you wrote is all good stuff (now that doesn't mean I completely agree: I might say it differently or add to it!
You really think I should get this OSAS thing, and you care about it deeply!! But it is clear that what you are saying is your interpretation of Scripture. (And when I say "your interpretation" that doesn't mean it is wrong!)
You wrote: "isn't it our work to examine the conscience and faith of others" - Yes, I agree - and I assume that is why you ask the questions you do in the rest of your post, because you care about the pure, true, gospel and the "truth of his Son".
I care about them as well! I would say things differently, though similarly to what you do, but I will not go into more details here. I have written enough on other posts.
You said first: "I agree" : I assume you meant that you agree that John 10:29 does not clearly, outrightly say "once saved always saved". But I assume your "I agree" means that you see my idea of the verse as "my interpretation". You don't agree with me about the interpretation of the verse; you would interpret it differently than I do. Am I right about what you meant by "I agree"?
The rest of what you wrote is all good stuff (now that doesn't mean I completely agree: I might say it differently or add to it!
You really think I should get this OSAS thing, and you care about it deeply!! But it is clear that what you are saying is your interpretation of Scripture. (And when I say "your interpretation" that doesn't mean it is wrong!) You wrote: "isn't it our work to examine the conscience and faith of others" - Yes, I agree - and I assume that is why you ask the questions you do in the rest of your post, because you care about the pure, true, gospel and the "truth of his Son".
I care about them as well! I would say things differently, though similarly to what you do, but I will not go into more details here. I have written enough on other posts.
I would argue that the sheep are those "who are believing".
It is sufficient because HE already knows and sees what is hidden from all men...
God wouldn't force people to keep their faith in him if they don't want to, would he? "It would be weird even to consider"
But I also don't think it is possible to be saved and then not want salvation later on.
You wouldn't ever really know if you were 'forced' to have faith in God. How does election work, exactly?
Not sure I follow here: "prove their faith" in HIM by their outward works? Yes? And if that's the case, what "works" would qualify to you as proof of their genuine faith
I am not trying to avoid your question: It is just that these terms: "prove their faith", "works", outward works, genuine faith, proof -- these are all English words but just too full of different potential meanings. For example: To me genuine faith is no different than faith. Outward works and "works" - I don't know what is the difference?
I am not trying to avoid your question: It is just that these terms: "prove their faith", "works", outward works, genuine faith, proof -- these are all English words but just too full of different potential meanings. For example: To me genuine faith is no different than faith. Outward works and "works" - I don't know what is the difference?
Ah, good questions.
One thought: You said, "But I also don't think it is possible to be saved and then not want salvation later on": Well I personally know at least one person that doesn't want faith in God, but at one point in his life it sure seemed to me (and I think also to him) that he had faith in God. He may not have really been saved, but I don't think I want to make that judgment call. But OSAS would force me to conclude he could not have ever been saved?
One thought: You said, "But I also don't think it is possible to be saved and then not want salvation later on": Well I personally know at least one person that doesn't want faith in God, but at one point in his life it sure seemed to me (and I think also to him) that he had faith in God. He may not have really been saved, but I don't think I want to make that judgment call. But OSAS would force me to conclude he could not have ever been saved?
A legalist can't believe in OSAS.
A legalist has to believe that he must work to earn his salvation.
And if he doesn't do enough work then he doesn't earn salvation.
Otherwise, the legalist would be stuck in a "gospel" that makes no sense. Trying to make everyone work at being sinless but not having any consequences for failing. There has to be consequences for not earning salvation, right?
I suppose the legalist misses entirely the need for faith.
Do you ever ask yourself what does faith say?
A legalist has to believe that he must work to earn his salvation.
And if he doesn't do enough work then he doesn't earn salvation.
Otherwise, the legalist would be stuck in a "gospel" that makes no sense. Trying to make everyone work at being sinless but not having any consequences for failing. There has to be consequences for not earning salvation, right?
I suppose the legalist misses entirely the need for faith.
Do you ever ask yourself what does faith say?
Or you could conclude that Gods Thoughts are higher than your thoughts and Gods Ways are higher than your ways.
In other words, maybe you just don't know. I definitely couldn't tell you one way or another.
If he's saved the Lord will bring him back, just like the prodigal son. If he's not saved then he needs to somehow find out that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
The gift of Salvation comes from God. Not from peoples faith. That is your problem in understanding. There is a prayer for that. If you are interested... (Ephesians 1:17-21)
In other words, maybe you just don't know. I definitely couldn't tell you one way or another.
If he's saved the Lord will bring him back, just like the prodigal son. If he's not saved then he needs to somehow find out that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
The gift of Salvation comes from God. Not from peoples faith. That is your problem in understanding. There is a prayer for that. If you are interested... (Ephesians 1:17-21)
