Eternal security

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V

Valmar

Guest
#1
#1
Some Christian doctrines teach and believe in eternal security or 'once saved, always saved' aspect of salvation. If this is true, then are there any indications that this same doctrine existed in the time before Christs' death and resurrection? In other words, in the time span of the Old testament? Remember that God is not a respecter of persons and shows no partiality toward men. Is the eternal security doctrine man contrived or God generated?
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#2
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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#2
Valmar said:
Some Christian doctrines teach and believe in eternal security or 'once saved, always saved' aspect of salvation. If this is true, then are there any indications that this same doctrine existed in the time before Christs' death and resurrection? In other words, in the time span of the Old testament? Remember that God is not a respecter of persons and shows no partiality toward men. Is the eternal security doctrine man contrived or God generated?
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Jesus certainly taught it before His death and resurrection;

. 'All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me, and him who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out. For I am come down from Heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him Who sent
Me. And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the Last Day,' (John 6.37-39)


But you do not believe (My Father's works) because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice and I know them, and they follow Me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and none shall pluck them from My hand. My Father who gave them to Me is greater than all, and no one IS ABLE to pluck them out of the Father's hand. I and my Father are one (John 10.27-30).

Also see Psalm 139
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#3
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#3
Valmar said:
Some Christian doctrines teach and believe in eternal security or 'once saved, always saved' aspect of salvation. If this is true, then are there any indications that this same doctrine existed in the time before Christs' death and resurrection? In other words, in the time span of the Old testament? Remember that God is not a respecter of persons and shows no partiality toward men. Is the eternal security doctrine man contrived or God generated?
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When David sinned with Bathsheba did he lose his salvation before God? Or Moses when he struck the rock twice was he then condemned?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
V

Valmar

Guest
#4
#4
The Bible is also plain in its statements concerning the record of those who are written in the Book of Life. In Deuteronomy 29:20, Exodus 32:33 and Revelation 3:5 we're told that these names can be blotted out or removed from their place of record. Unfortunately, our ability to choose salvation is a daily effort and not one to be taken for granted, as so many seem to do today. Presumptive attitudes towards Almighty God and His Glorified Son are pervasive and have created a 'lazy' Christianity that says Jesus did it all and my obligations/responsibilities are few, if any. While many declare Him as Savior, few know Him as Lord.
 
O

oldethennew

Banned
#5
Feb 28, 2016
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#5
1COR.9:27.
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means,
when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1TH. 3: - For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.

11TH. 3:10. -
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work,
neither should he eat.

HEB. 3:6.
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast
the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

3:14. - For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence
stedfast unto the end;

10:38.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him.

12:25.
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him that speaketh from heaven:

JAMES 2:6.
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart,
this man's religion is vain.

11PETER 2:20.
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of
the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome,
the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

REV. 2:26.
And he that overcomes and keeps My Works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations.

REV. 22:19.
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city,
and from the things which are written in this book.
 
V

Valmar

Guest
#6
#6
In response to your posting. No, David didn't lose his salvation because he humbled himself and asked forgiveness. Moses' disobedience was not the same type as David's. His was one of improper obedience, not the breaking of a commandment as was David's. Both, however, suffered consequences of their decisions, one had bloodshed in his home and the other was withheld from entering Canaan. I think you should also consider the cases of King Saul and Balaam. Do you think they retained their salvation?
 
V

Valmar

Guest
#7
#7
Also, check out Psalms 69:28 and have a good weekend.
 
E

ember

Guest
#8
#8
let's ask if you can know if you are saved...can we know if we ARE actually saved or not?

seems we could be eternally secure if we understood that q and a

why examine only the aspects of something that is already a done deal in the conception of the thread?

I am sincere when I state that I think the concept of salvation itself could be misunderstood in certain circumstances if the numerous threads involving OSAS and law/grace threads are any indication

so if we can know for sure we are saved, then it seems to me we can state we are indeed always saved...if, on the other hand, we are of the persuasion that we do not have a secure promise from God, then it would naturally take the form of questions geared to involve the work of human beings not quite sure if they are actually saved or not but sure enough hoping they are

so, again, can we know we are saved for sure? maybe that is what folks are really asking
 
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oldethennew

Banned
#9
Feb 28, 2016
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#9
well Ember,

if one is NOT sure, then probably not yet...
 
V

Valmar

Guest
#10
#10
That seems to be the siren cry of our day. Jesus said in Matthew 7:21 that whoever does the will of the Father in heaven shall enter in. Again, another example of Christ' lordship in a believer's life is used. That's for a reason, the only way to make heaven is not simply by faith, but faith accompanied by works. Do His will, do His will, do His will. That should be our mantra, so to speak.
 
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Valmar

Guest
#11
#11
As a post script to the last...for a believer to know he/she is actively in God's will, they must become sensitive to the Holy Spirit's guidance in their lives. He guides in all knowledge and truth. Bible study and meditation on the Word along with an active prayer life goes far in ensuring this outcome.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#12
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
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#12
Valmar said:
That seems to be the siren cry of our day. Jesus said in Matthew 7:21 that whoever does the will of the Father in heaven shall enter in. Again, another example of Christ' lordship in a believer's life is used. That's for a reason, the only way to make heaven is not simply by faith, but faith accompanied by works. Do His will, do His will, do His will. That should be our mantra, so to speak.
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What is God's will?

I have found at least 7 things about doing the will of God on this earth now that we are in Christ.

1) That we have eternal life in Christ - John 6:40

2) That we be filled with the Holy Spirit - Eph 5:16-21

3) That we live a pure, disciplined lifestyle - 1 Thess 4:3-4 ( we live out that holiness that is already in us in our new man ..created in Christ in righteousness and holiness )

4) That we are rejoicing in the Lord, praying without ceasing, and grateful - 1 Thess 5:16-18

5) That we be a law-abiding citizen - 1 Peter 2:13-16

6) That we believe and influence others to believe - 2 Peter 3:9

7) That we commit ourselves to God and other believers - 2 Cor 8:5

According to the works-based salvationists...if someone is not joyful one day or didn't pray for a couple of days...or was not grateful for a day or so and they died..then they would go to hell because they didn't do " the will of God"..( see #4 above )....how foolish this nonsense is.

What about #5 above...if you speed and crash your car and die..you go to hell because you were not doing " the will of God"...again the complete foolishness of people that say..not doing the will of God are not saved.

The "doing of the will of God" for salvation is to believe on Christ and it is by grace through faith only - no works. Eph 2:8-9

The saint who rests in Christ and in His finished work is the will of God and what appears to be his free choices are actually God's will for him. It's loving God because you know His love for you, doing what is inside of you under His influence. Phil 2:13
 
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oldethennew

Banned
#13
Feb 28, 2016
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#13
Valmar, good post...

His Will be done has been my wife's and my prayer for many, many years, and also,
in the beginning, we continually prayed that we not be feigners/pretenders -
in our walk and love for Christ...
 
V

Valmar

Guest
#15
#15
Hello, Grace777x70. I appreciate your response to my thread. I've been at this Christian walk for more than a day, less than a century and I'm always cognizant of the fact that there are those who live with what I refer to as a 'gotcha' mentality. It's either unbelievers who think if they can find the one in a million thing concerning God or His attributes that seems contradictory, then they 'got' Him seemingly. On the other hand, there are those, such as yourself, who tend to present various scenarios that somehow seem intent on making God the one to say 'gotcha' to us. Crashing your car or being less than joyful at any given moment in time and suddenly dying and standing before a stern God who points an accusing finger at you to condemn you to hell for eternity. Do you really think God is like that? Waiting for the moment in time for you to fail and then, 'poof', you're in hell. If you don't think Paul wasn't doing works for the Lord (at the Lord's request), then I don't know what you'd call it. Show me any scripture which says your ability to choose is forfeited upon receipt of salvation in your life. Why do you think the writer of Hebrews likened Abraham's departure for the promised land to righteousness? He didn't simply believe God, but obeyed Him in that he did the work of leaving Ur of the Chaldees and going forth in faith. Never forget that faith without works is dead and no dead type of faith will get you into eternity with God. Have a good weekend.
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#16
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63
#16
Valmar said:
The Bible is also plain in its statements concerning the record of those who are written in the Book of Life. In Deuteronomy 29:20, Exodus 32:33 and Revelation 3:5 we're told that these names can be blotted out or removed from their place of record. Unfortunately, our ability to choose salvation is a daily effort and not one to be taken for granted, as so many seem to do today. Presumptive attitudes towards Almighty God and His Glorified Son are pervasive and have created a 'lazy' Christianity that says Jesus did it all and my obligations/responsibilities are few, if any. While many declare Him as Savior, few know Him as Lord.
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Nowhere does it say we can be blotted out of the book of life. You misread the text. We ARE told twice that our names are written in it from the foundation of the world. Deut 29.20and Exod 32.33 refer to another book, the first the book of the Law, the second that of the living. Get your ideas sorted out!

As for your scurrilous accusations against God's People who trust His promises of eternal security, may God be your JUDGE.

The Bible says that God saves us once for all. If He did not none would be saved. you do not even understand salvation, which is FROM GOD.
 
Jon4TheCross

Jon4TheCross

Senior Member
#17
Oct 19, 2012
1,864
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#17
Valmar said:
Some Christian doctrines teach and believe in eternal security or 'once saved, always saved' aspect of salvation. If this is true, then are there any indications that this same doctrine existed in the time before Christs' death and resurrection? In other words, in the time span of the Old testament? Remember that God is not a respecter of persons and shows no partiality toward men. Is the eternal security doctrine man contrived or God generated?
Click to expand...
Both are true. Just as Jesus can say to His disciples that Lazarus is sleeping, and then say that Lazarus is dead (speaking according to the manner of men)....So can God say that we were saved because the foreknowledge and predestination of God does exist....the thing is....

1 Corinthians 10:11-13Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)[SUP]11 [/SUP]Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. [SUP]13 [/SUP]There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Ephesians 1:5
having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Ephesians 1:11
in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


Yet...shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid.
The goal is to speak the Word of God/Yeshua/Jesus Christ of Nazareth in our actions, attitudes, thoughts, and words, and also in the unity of sincere love. God knows His, but we may not yet know we are His at times, or think we go back and forth. Paul said that if we do that which we do not want to do, it is no longer I who does it, but sin that dwells in me, in the flesh. There are more than one identity in us at times. Jesus directed words at Peter....Satan, and Paul directed a rebuke at Peter after Acts chapter 1-4. This is how the following is true...because of two identities...till the old man is completely gone, and any other spirits with us and having an affect on us.

Hopefully you will be able to see the two identities in this passage.

1 John 3:8-10Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)[SUP]8 [/SUP]He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [SUP]10 [/SUP]In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
 
V

Valmar

Guest
#18
#18
Alas, there are no names written in the book of the Law, only laws are written in the book. Secondly, book of the living or book of life, hmmm.. sounds like the same to me. So, I guess those statements made by God to Moses and the words of Jesus in Revelation are just figurative in nature? I don't think so, but, believe what you will.
 
Jon4TheCross

Jon4TheCross

Senior Member
#19
Oct 19, 2012
1,864
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38
#19
Valmar said:
Alas, there are no names written in the book of the Law, only laws are written in the book. Secondly, book of the living or book of life, hmmm.. sounds like the same to me. So, I guess those statements made by God to Moses and the words of Jesus in Revelation are just figurative in nature? I don't think so, but, believe what you will.
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When I fasted in the wilderness for 40 days and nights drinking creek water only...I went places within my mind/spirit/wherever....God knows. That which is written in the Revelation of St. John the divine is possible only seen as He saw it from the level of heaven he was experiencing. I had my free will in the dreams/visions I went into during the fast. I believe the law is surely a way of teaching (don't do this...don't do this...don't do this...do this...do this...do this...). I believe we for the most part (as a body of believers) doubt that there is really one needful thing...don't you think?

Luke 10:38-42Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)[SUP]38 [/SUP]Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus’ feet, and heard his word. [SUP]40 [/SUP]But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. [SUP]41 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: [SUP]42 [/SUP]but one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
Mark 12:28-30Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? [SUP]29 [/SUP]And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: [SUP]30 [/SUP]and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
 
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Valmar

Guest
#20
#20
In an arena like this, which is worldwide, I find myself very aware that whatever is posted from me is subject not only to Biblical accuracy, but is also judged for wording and intent. If any of my posts sound patronizing or contemptible, then I ask your pardon. My aim is to encourage not only other believers, but myself as well. My objective is Ephesians 4:14-15, but my method is verse 32.
 
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