Why Joseph Prince is a Cancerous Growth within God's People

[Cee]

Love your posts Angela!

I think if you consider the Scripture that says we shall know Him as He knows us makes this all quite clear.

In Christ we are One with Him, we are joined to His Spirit.

The Sanctification process is the "renewing" (continually be made new) of who we are in Christ.

This is why prophesy is so critical (1 Co 14) and above any gift called to be exercised to build the church.

It's also why we are called new creations and that the former has passed away.

You'll notice where Scripture points at "behavior" which is ultimately what you are referring to when you say "still sin" that it then points affirmatively back to identity, as you have stated in our eternal state.

The point of the disciples, imo, is that you're not behaving like you really are in Christ.

Once we understand this finer point, all the other Scriptures make sense, for instance put off the old man and put on the new man when referring once again to renewing the spirit of the mind (eph 3).

And the fact we have His law written on our hearts and mind, and now desire the things of God, as long as we have our mind renewed to His goodness and kindness (this is the foundation of repentance) which is really renewing of the mind when you understand the Greek context behind it.

This is why Paul says, examine yourself to see if you are truly in the faith, and he says none who do these things shall inherit the Kingdom, but this is not who you are, you have been washed, justified, and glorified.

Which is pointing to a present reality in order to embody the hope (confident expectation) of glory. Christ is this hope of glory. We are joined to Him and we are now His Body (literally). And our life is hid in Him. I like to say we are the I, in the middle of Christ, ChrIst. He hid us in the Son that we might be in relation with the Father.

1 John when discussing confessing our sins is referring to pre-Christ, imo, because of the context of it and also statements made later, about a yr ago I wrote extensive posts on this topic, but I hope that just these different blocks will click as the Holy Spirit breathes life on it. And if not, that's okay too because you are definitely a true seeker in the Lord.

C.

Just in case I have thoroughly confused everyone about where I stand, I do believe in eternal security. But I believe that because God saves us, he also convicts us of sin, after we are saved. This is part of the process of sanctification.

I do not believe we can lose our salvation. But assurance of our salvation does not guarantee perfection.

I also do not believe hypergrace is right, esp. Having just re-read some of the info posted by Grace777. It is some truth mixed with some untruth. A very deadly combination.

Surely there is a middle to this discussion? That we are saved by the grace through the faith that God gives us, because of the death of Jesus Christ on the cross, who paid for our sin. Yes, all our sin.

So do we then decide we can do whatever we want? If we are walking with Christ, the Holy Spirit is leading us - he will pull us back when we go astray, for sure! BUT, going astray requires repentance before God. And that is part of being sanctified - being made more and more aware of what displeases God, and allowing the Holy Spirit to not only teach us, but transform us.

And that middle ground is so important! Because either extreme will limit our growth and maturity in God. If we sin freely and wilfully, we will lose that close walk with God. And anyone who says they can sin freely and walk with God is a liar.

But, if we live in fear of losing our salvation if we do sin, we are living in fear, and it will also stop us from maturing in our walk with God. And this I say from experience, having been taught and living in fear of losing my salvation for at least 20 years, and not growing one tiny bit in all those years!

Yet hypergrace teachers are simply not teaching they progressive journey of salvation, either! Instead, the Word Faith teachers are saying when God justifies us, we are also glorified at that moment, instead of evidence to the contrary, ie sin in our lives. Or worse, these false teachers tell us we can sin freely, because God already forgave that sin on the cross. Well, he did, but we still need to confess it, in order to mature and grow - in other words - be sanctified.


I know I have said this over and over, but here it is again. Please pay attention as this will be on the final! (By the way, I learned this process from reading my Bible. It is where I also learned I would not lose my salvation. That is why we need to read and study the Bible - and not pull verses out to support our preconceived ideas, but rather to let God teach us the truth from his Word.)

The Process of Salvation

Justification - God saves us (Romans 5:1). We are not perfect experientially, only positionally.

Sanctification - God is in the process of transforming us into the image of Christ. (Romans 12:2; 2 Cor. 3:18) We are not perfect. we are on a journey with the Holy Spirit leading and guiding us. And yes, we NEED to confess our sins! (1 John 1:8-2:2) On earth, this is the main part of our Christian walk - unless we are saved on our deathbed.

Glorification - Jesus returns or we see Jesus face to face. We are made into the image of God (but we are NOT God!). 1 John 3:2, 1 Cor. 13:12) We do not sin any longer. This is eternity with Christ!

 

[UnderGrace]

So you think this Scripture is talking about believers? Because my Bible says the wrath of God is not for the children. And as soon as we become children, we have repented. But this Scripture says that without repenting you are storing up wrath. Interesting. Do I think we need to repent? Not the way you might think of repentance. If we take a look at "repentance" it of course means meta noia. Which means change of mind. But there's a lot more about repentance than most people understand. You're not only turning away from something, but also turning toward something. When people struggle to understand grace it might be because they have turned away sin, but haven't yet turned toward the goodness and kindness of God. And because they don't understand His goodness and kindness they have mental repentance instead of joyful repentance. And to repentant even further from this point takes us straight into the new creation reality of who we now are in Christ, new creations who desire the things of God as they are written on our heart and mind. It is in this level of repentance that we begin to embrace concepts such as "getting to do" the things of God instead of "having to do them".

Because my Bible says His ways are not burdensome. Nor does He enslave. He frees.

C.

I did not watch the video the first time it was posted, but having just watched it is very offensive the attack on Joseph Prince and saying "this man does not love Jesus" Even if one opposes his message that is just a wrong thing to say.

AngelaLina

 

[vic1980]

So you think this Scripture is talking about believers?

The Word of God speak many issues in this life.

First of importance,Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said.

The Word of God speaks upon Believers & unbelievers,those who are saved and those who are lost. Those who hate God & those who Worship Him in Truth & Spirit.

His word speak upon self appointed , and those God Himself called to Teach His truth.

His ways calls for repentance

Because my Bible says His ways are not burdensome. Nor does He enslave. He frees.

C.

Pretty sure there a clear understanding of Grace of God, towards us all written in scripture, also aware of what your view is of Grace as well, since you have spoken upon it in the Bible study chat room.

In agreement with you on that His ways are not burdensome ,But when someone is teaching false doctrine (not you but so call teachers) it has to be pointed out. A believer in Christ cannot just keep quiet and let others stumble into error, that is not what our LORD would want us to do, these so call men that teach we need to examine there teaching, and see if it is true according to His Word. Cee would you please read post # 516 and give me your conclusion on this discussion. Thank you, and may Jesus bless you with His truth always.

Shalom

 

[B1Davanda]

I did not watch the video the first time it was posted, but having just watched it is very offensive the attack on Joseph Prince and saying "this man does not love Jesus" Even if one opposes his message that is just a wrong thing to say.

AngelaLina

Hi. Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I believe cee was addressing Angela53510 in regards to his earlier teaching, but hey, two Angelas is twice as nice. God bless you AngelaUnderGrace! \/

 

[Cee]

Hey Vic!

I'm replying to this thread because you asked me to...

Okay well first off Revelation is written to churches, removing their candlestick, I personally believe is referring to their influence in the world. We are called to be the light in the world. I do not believe it is referring to their salvation. That being said, I agree that Jesus does call us to repent. However, I believe repentance is about turning away and also turning towards. When Jesus said, repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, I believe the key to this Scripture is to turn towards the Kingdom of God.

What is the Kingdom? It is the King's dominion. Or His reign and rule. Which we are called to pray for His Will to be here on Earth as it is in Heaven, His Kingdom come. So where the Kingdom of God is His will is fully manifested. I believe this is important to understand.

I am in no way espousing or teaching that Christians should sin, in fact, I believe that grace empowers holiness when it is rightly understood. It is the empowerment of God. Why do I believe this? Because Jesus grew in grace. He did not need unmerited favor as He had never sinned. So to say that grace is only attached to sin, I believe is half the equation.

You might think well then why do you write these long posts and are so passionate in the chat room about it then? Because I believe that the Bible is not completely understood if we don't apprehend the concept of the new creation reality in Christ. And as Jesus says, a good tree does not bear bad fruit. The issue I see is that people don't believe they are good trees. They are trying to force out fruit instead of resting and abiding in Christ (Who tells us we can do nothing, apart from Him).

So my philosophy is letting people rest in Christ, abide in Him, and He who prepared every good work is faithful to complete the work He started in us. When I talk about repentance my thought process is more towards, turning toward God, chasing love. And when we do this we do as Paul said "fulfill the entire law". Because chasing love also avoids sin, but avoiding sin does not chase love.

James even tells us that religion is useless unless it contains loving people who can't take care of themselves AND staying unspotted from the world. So I do agree that staying unspotted is important, but I believe it is grace and not law or fear (in any form) that actually empowers us to do what God calls us to do. And this is all apart of the process of "renewing the mind" to PROVE (reveal, establish) the will of God, which is bringing His Kingdom on Earth, imo.

I wrote a longer reply to you because you directly reached out for my response. Bless you abundantly.

C.

Let the Holy Scripture of God, speak truth on this matter.



Heavy burden ???

Are you aware of King David story, how he sin against the LORD,by taking another man's wife Bathsheba and murder a innocent man, confess of His wrong doing ???

2 Samuel 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

Do you remember King David when he order to count the people , knowing God said not to do so, confess to the LORD of his wrong doing ???

1Chronicles 12:17​

And David said unto God, Is it not I that commanded the people to be numbered? even I it is that have sinned and done evil indeed; but as for these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, O LORD my God, be on me, and on my father's house; but not on thy people, that they should be plagued.

Question did King David feel as you describe , it was a burden to acknowledge he was not in the right with God Almighty ???

I believe you can agree hopefully, he was happy to walk according to God ways, and acknowledge his wrong doing, David had God Holyspirit in him

But i guess you and others might say ,but but this is OT, we are in the New Covenent in Christ Jesus.

Let us continue to examine upon this issue...



King David is just one example of many in the Holy scripture, how would you bring into account the congregations that were spoken upon in the Book of Revelation, the LORD sent message to them to REPENT, these were not new Believers in Christ.

Question what if you were part of that congregation , that is spoken upon in Revelation, to the seven churches in the province of Asia. The messager of the LORD came to declare such a thing to your congregation REPENT or be remove thy candlestick , would you rather hearken to that messager that Jesus Christ Himself sent, or would you instead Hearken to a man in a suit that made merchandise of people , and twist the truth of God into there own ideology that is man made,that tells you once is enough for God ???

This Question is towards the following individuals:

Seed_time_harvest

ladylynn

Budman

Grace777x70


And anyone else that thinks alike, this is not a joke there are guest reading these forums, and new believers in Christ, this is a serious discussion.

Who would you stand with God truth, or rather with, those ministers masquerade as servants of righteousness. ???

This is the truth in New Covenent , in Christ Jesus even after your saved, REPENT...

Shalom

 

[ladylynn]

Sounds like the pathway to 'perfectionism'. True, we have been given a new heart but there remains the flesh/old man so that...

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
(Gal 5:16-17)

Unless one has reached that 24/7 of walking in the spirit (perfection) I'd suggest a little confession and seeking forgiveness to grow in your relationship with God. At least that's me, and if I recall, David was a man after God's heart...not perfect.

It's been shared so many times already but I will say it again and again because it never gets old. We are no longer in a place called "sin" we are in a place called "righteousness" What I am learning to confess each day is that I am the righteousness of God IN Christ. That is the awesome reality of what and who we are because of Jesus. We are walking it out. Working out our salvation., working out what Jesus put in.

(and P.S. today we have it even better than David did. When God sees us He sees Jesus.)

Because of Jesus I am righteous 24/7 not because of my own work but because of Jesus finished work on the cross. What I need to do (by faith) is walk it out. That is what Gal.5:16-17 is talking about.

Maybe it sounds like "I" think "I" am all that on my own. (and the others who talk so much about grace here) We know we are all those things God (loves) because of Jesus. We please God now. We are under no condemnation now. We have been transferred from a place called "sin" to a place called "righteousness" now. No more in Adam., now IN Christ.

Until a believer takes that reality by faith - of who they are IN Christ, I'm not sure how they can have the peace that passes human understanding because this grace business is not humanly received. It's only because of the way we are loved now IN Christ that we have a solid and sure and constant foundation regardless of what the world the flesh and the devil do. Christ has secured the gift of righteousness in us. God's love is free and clear. But unless we 'believe' the truth., it can't set us free to walk in victory while here on earth.

On the one hand I am so aware of what sin is and why it took Jesus to be the ONLY remedy for it. I see it in my flesh in the way I'm annoyed at someone or the way I at times could just care less about someone even if for a moment that flesh power IS a reality. But I am set free from it IN Christ and God no longer holds me guilty for it. So I am free to step out and over it onto who I am IN Christ saying goodbye to who I was in sin. It's just a memory of the way I was and no longer am because of Jesus. I no longer have to walk out the flesh. It's gone and has no power over me., only the power I give it.

The gift of no condemnation is major. The truth that all our sins are forgiven is major because there is so much capability in our flesh to do evil even to the degree we had NO idea how bad it really was. That is why if someone hates his brother it is just as bad as murder. Or if someone lusts after a woman it's as if he has committed adultery already.

But we can walk out our salvation in real time now because of Jesus who took our sin and it is gone as far as the east is from the west. I have said many times to the Lord., Father!! how could YOU have saved such a wretch as me??!! I never knew how really bad my flesh was until I began to see how really good You are and how really wonderful Your love is that loves without condition. You love based on nothing I have done or will do.

How is that possible???? GRACE; God's kind of love. And not only that, but it is THAT kind of love He calls us to give to others. With man that is impossible... but with God it IS possible. There is so much more to this kind of love God has for us., It's been only a few years and I have only just begun to barely scratch the surface of God's love and grace.

 

[Cee]

Amen LadyLynn!

And in that very chapter is this verse we find:

[SUP]Gal 5:24 [/SUP]And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

The flesh is crucified, not being crucified. Once again in Gal 5 behavior is being pointed at to bring it back to the finality of identity.

So the statement, "we still have the flesh/old man" is actually against Scripture. Because Scripture says the old has passed away (not passing) and the flesh is crucified (not being crucified).

I realize it seems difficult, but through the door of faith, you say I believe this about myself. And as you walk into the new creation reality it all begins to become clear. And the Scriptures "in Christ, by Christ, and through Christ" actually begin to make sense.

C.

It's been shared so many times already but I will say it again and again because it never gets old. We are no longer in a place called "sin" we are in a place called "righteousness" What I am learning to confess each day is that I am the righteousness of God IN Christ. That is the awesome reality of what and who we are because of Jesus. We are walking it out. Working out our salvation., working out what Jesus put in.

(and P.S. today we have it even better than David did. When God sees us He sees Jesus.)

Because of Jesus I am righteous 24/7 not because of my own work but because of Jesus finished work on the cross. What I need to do (by faith) is walk it out. That is what Gal.5:16-17 is talking about.

Maybe it sounds like "I" think "I" am all that on my own. (and the others who talk so much about grace here) We know we are all those things God (loves) because of Jesus. We please God now. We are under no condemnation now. We have been transferred from a place called "sin" to a place called "righteousness" now. No more in Adam., now IN Christ.

Until a believer takes that reality by faith - of who they are IN Christ, I'm not sure how they can have the peace that passes human understanding because this grace business is not humanly received. It's only because of the way we are loved now IN Christ that we have a solid and sure and constant foundation regardless of what the world the flesh and the devil do. Christ has secured the gift of righteousness in us. God's love is free and clear. But unless we 'believe' the truth., it can't set us free to walk in victory while here on earth.

On the one hand I am so aware of what sin is and why it took Jesus to be the ONLY remedy for it. I see it in my flesh in the way I'm annoyed at someone or the way I at times could just care less about someone even if for a moment that flesh power IS a reality. But I am set free from it IN Christ and God no longer holds me guilty for it. So I am free to step out and over it onto who I am IN Christ saying goodbye to who I was in sin. It's just a memory of the way I was and no longer am because of Jesus. I no longer have to walk out the flesh. It's gone and has no power over me., only the power I give it.

The gift of no condemnation is major. The truth that all our sins are forgiven is major because there is so much capability in our flesh to do evil even to the degree we had NO idea how bad it really was. That is why if someone hates his brother it is just as bad as murder. Or if someone lusts after a woman it's as if he has committed adultery already.

But we can walk out our salvation in real time now because of Jesus who took our sin and it is gone as far as the east is from the west. I have said many times to the Lord., Father!! how could YOU have saved such a wretch as me??!! I never knew how really bad my flesh was until I began to see how really good You are and how really wonderful Your love is that loves without condition. You love based on nothing I have done or will do.

How is that possible???? GRACE; God's kind of love. And not only that, but it is THAT kind of love He calls us to give to others. With man that is impossible... but with God it IS possible. There is so much more to this kind of love God has for us., It's been only a few years and I have only just begun to barely scratch the surface of God's love and grace.

 

[JGIG]

I am in agreement with your conclusion Angela. We do not worship the creation ( small c) but the Creator (capital C) ... nor do we worship grace (small g) but the propitiation of that grace God, (capital G)

God is love, true...Scripture says so.
No where do I read that God is grace.

Grace is only possible because justice was met ( God's wrath was poured out on Christ) in our stead.
Ask the fallen angels who sinned if God is grace.

My point is that grace is not God's essence as some are claiming like love is. God is gracious towards us on account of Christ (nothing in us) but was not towards the fallen angels...at least He did not become an angel to take upon Himself the wrath due them.

I also speak fluent French, I used to teach FSL and immersion, as well as knowing German and Spanish. More recently I learned Biblical Greek and Hebrew. Growing up, I was probably the last generation of Canadians who were drilled in grammar - both English and French. And Greek is all grammar, along with vocabulary. Which is why I did so well in Greek in Seminary and now that I am taking Intermediate Grammar. I remember how many dropped out of Greek, because they had no background in grammar, which is very sad, I think. My sister is 8 years younger than me, and she had no grammar and no math, and it hindered her in a lot of things - although she did become a lawyer!

So no, grace is not capitalized, unless it is a proper noun that stands alone. And when you make it stand alone, you are separating it from God. Grace is an amazing gift, there is no doubt about it. But a gift is a common noun, and the gift is not the giver - the giver is God and he alone deserves the capitalization for being a proper noun - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Which I believe is part of the whole point of this thread.

Understood.

Here's the thing: Spirit of grace IS capitalized in Hebrews 10:29.

29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot,who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit [G4151] of grace? (from Heb. 10)​

Strong's G4151 - pneuma​

1. 
   [*=2]the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son

1. 
   [*=3]sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the "Holy" Spirit)
   [*=3]sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")
   [*=3]never referred to as a depersonalised force

Just as you wouldn't separate 'Holy' from 'Spirit', you wouldn't separate 'grace' from 'Spirit', as grace is an intrinsic characteristic of Who the Spirit is.

Whether or not you think it should be capitalized is another issue, and one could say that love should never be capitalized, either, yet the Scriptures clearly tell us that "God is love", so in making points in a forum such as this, I don't think it wholly inappropriate to capitalize either Love or Grace.

Titus 2 tells us this:


11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled,upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (from Titus 2)

We know from other Scripture that the Holy Spirit is our teacher:


26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (from Jn. 14)


No one here is trying to deify grace/Grace, but we must be careful to not separate Grace from God, just as we would not separate Love from God or Holy from God or Truth from God.


-JGIG

 

[crossnote]

It's been shared so many times already but I will say it again and again because it never gets old. We are no longer in a place called "sin" we are in a place called "righteousness" What I am learning to confess each day is that I am the righteousness of God IN Christ. That is the awesome reality of what and who we are because of Jesus. We are walking it out. Working out our salvation., working out what Jesus put in.

(and P.S. today we have it even better than David did. When God sees us He sees Jesus.)

Because of Jesus I am righteous 24/7 not because of my own work but because of Jesus finished work on the cross. What I need to do (by faith) is walk it out. That is what Gal.5:16-17 is talking about.

Maybe it sounds like "I" think "I" am all that on my own. (and the others who talk so much about grace here) We know we are all those things God (loves) because of Jesus. We please God now. We are under no condemnation now. We have been transferred from a place called "sin" to a place called "righteousness" now. No more in Adam., now IN Christ.

Until a believer takes that reality by faith - of who they are IN Christ, I'm not sure how they can have the peace that passes human understanding because this grace business is not humanly received. It's only because of the way we are loved now IN Christ that we have a solid and sure and constant foundation regardless of what the world the flesh and the devil do. Christ has secured the gift of righteousness in us. God's love is free and clear. But unless we 'believe' the truth., it can't set us free to walk in victory while here on earth.

On the one hand I am so aware of what sin is and why it took Jesus to be the ONLY remedy for it. I see it in my flesh in the way I'm annoyed at someone or the way I at times could just care less about someone even if for a moment that flesh power IS a reality. But I am set free from it IN Christ and God no longer holds me guilty for it. So I am free to step out and over it onto who I am IN Christ saying goodbye to who I was in sin. It's just a memory of the way I was and no longer am because of Jesus. I no longer have to walk out the flesh. It's gone and has no power over me., only the power I give it.

The gift of no condemnation is major. The truth that all our sins are forgiven is major because there is so much capability in our flesh to do evil even to the degree we had NO idea how bad it really was. That is why if someone hates his brother it is just as bad as murder. Or if someone lusts after a woman it's as if he has committed adultery already.

But we can walk out our salvation in real time now because of Jesus who took our sin and it is gone as far as the east is from the west. I have said many times to the Lord., Father!! how could YOU have saved such a wretch as me??!! I never knew how really bad my flesh was until I began to see how really good You are and how really wonderful Your love is that loves without condition. You love based on nothing I have done or will do.

How is that possible???? GRACE; God's kind of love. And not only that, but it is THAT kind of love He calls us to give to others. With man that is impossible... but with God it IS possible. There is so much more to this kind of love God has for us., It's been only a few years and I have only just begun to barely scratch the surface of God's love and grace.

The same apostle that said we have died to sin and the law also said to 'mortify' our members on the earth. How is that possible? Through His Word, and through His Spirit. It's by His Word and Spirit that we know things like 'we have died to sin and the law' and it's by His Word and Spirit we mortify our members on the earth.
We can't just live on one side of the equation.

Getting back to David's confession of his sin (my original point), none of the above you wrote (much I agree with) does not preclude confessing our sin to God, not out of cringing fear, but out of an inner conviction by God's Spirit (even you admitted David had the Holy Spirit; Of course being a prophet) drawing us to come clean before the living God, not as Adam did hiding or pretending it's no big deal 'cause, hey, we are already forgiven.

No I'd rather walk and chew gum at the same time. Yes, my sins are forgiven but when the Holy Spirit presses hard on me, I will confess my sins to God, keeping the river flowing.

 

[Cee]

Col 3 is taking the reality of who we are, now comparing it to behavior. It's identity => behavior. Other times Paul takes behavior => identity.... But the pattern is the same. Who you NOW are in Christ. I'll show you. (And I'll use KJV since "mortify" is KJVish.)

1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

5Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

The word therefore points us to what was said prior... It's a conclusion.

You're dead to sin. Therefore act like it. Because that's who you really are.

Oh and David had the Spirit "upon" him. Not in him. We are new creations. We have the better promise. (Hebrews)

C.

The same apostle that said we have died to sin and the law also said to 'mortify' our members on the earth. How is that possible? Through His Word, and through His Spirit. It's by His Word and Spirit that we know things like 'we have died to sin and the law' and it's by His Word and Spirit we mortify our members on the earth.
We can't just live on one side of the equation.

Getting back to David's confession of his sin (my original point), none of the above you wrote (much I agree with) does not preclude confessing our sin to God, not out of cringing fear, but out of an inner conviction by God's Spirit (even you admitted David had the Holy Spirit; Of course being a prophet) drawing us to come clean before the living God, not as Adam did hiding or pretending it's no big deal 'cause, hey, we are already forgiven.

No I'd rather walk and chew gum at the same time. Yes, my sins are forgiven but when the Holy Spirit presses hard on me, I will confess my sins to God, keeping the river flowing.

 

[JGIG]

The bible explicitly witnesses that GOD is love and truth, but it nowhere witnesses that GOD is grace.

Is the Holy Spirit God?




Spirit of grace IS capitalized in Hebrews 10:29.

29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot,who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit [G4151] of grace? (from Heb. 10)​

Strong's G4151 - pneuma​

1. 
   [*=2]the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son

1. 
   [*=3]sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the "Holy" Spirit)
   [*=3]sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")
   [*=3]never referred to as a depersonalised force

Just as you wouldn't separate 'Holy' from 'Spirit', you wouldn't separate 'grace' from 'Spirit', as grace is an intrinsic characteristic of Who the Spirit is.

And do you believe that the Holy Spirit is God?

Titus 2 tells us this:


11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled,upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (from Titus 2)

We know from other Scripture that the Holy Spirit is our teacher:


26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (from Jn. 14)


No one here is trying to deify grace/Grace, but we must be careful to not separate Grace from God, just as we would not separate Love from God or Holy from God or Truth from God.

You continue to make statements that are contrary to what Scripture actually says.


-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

1. 
   
   Take the time to read the scriptures here below and it will be obvious that Jesus is grace as He is love and Truth. If after reading the below scriptures if we still say that Jesus is not grace - we have some kind of a blinders on.
   
   The gospel of grace is the gospel of Jesus (Acts 20:24, 2 Th 1:8).
2. We are saved by grace (Eph 2:5); we are saved by Jesus (2 Tim 1:9).

1. We are justified by grace (Rom 3:24); we are justified by Jesus (Rom 4:25).

1. Grace helps us; Jesus helps us (Heb 4:16).

1. God’s grace offers salvation to all (Tit 2:11); Jesus is the Savior of all (1 Tim 4:10).

1. God is love and love that stoops (or comes down) is grace; Jesus is the Father’s love come down (John 16:28).

1. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ (Rom 8:9) and the Spirit of Grace (Heb 10:29).

1. All the blessings of God come to us by grace alone and all of them are found in Jesus (Eph 1:3).

1. Grace is a teacher (Tit 2:12); Jesus is a teacher (Matt 8:19).

1. Grace reigns (Rom 5:21); Jesus reigns (1 Cor 15:25).

1. When the Galatians cut themselves off from Christ, they cut themselves off from grace (Gal 5:4).

1. In the same way that God is love, Jesus is grace (see 2 Cor 13:14).

1. The Bible speaks of “the love of God” and “the grace of Jesus” ( 1Cor 16:23, Rev 22:21).

1. God’s grace is given in Christ Jesus” (1 Cor 1:4, Eph 1:6, 2 Tim 1:9, 2:1). Jesus is the embodiment of God’s grace.

1. Here are two Biblical blessings that say the same thing: “The Lord be with you” and “grace be with you” (2 Tim 4:22, Phm 1:25).

1. The Old Testament prophets foretold the coming of Jesus and the coming of grace (1 Pet 1:10). These weren’t two separate events. Grace came when Jesus came (John 1:17).

1. To the degree that we know Jesus, we enjoy God’s grace (2 Pet 1:2)

1. Jesus is the word of God and the word of his grace which can build you up (Act 20:32)

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Grace777x70 again."

Great post!

​-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

If He is grace and forgiveness, why didn't he forgive the fallen angels?
He acts graciously toward mankind because He chose to on account of Christ, he didn't have to. He could have moved in justice as He did with the angels that sinned.

Never thought I'd see you propping up a straw man for so long, crossnote.

How about if YOU answer the question you've been repeatedly asking .

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

That did it. From now on, according to y'all, I should only reference my husband as blue eyes. That's it. That's the one and only characterization there is about him. And everyone should know he is only Blue-Eyes. Not John!

Now you know all you need to know about him. He IS Blue-Eyes. Nothing else to know, nothing else to think about with him.

Seems stupid, doesn't it? And yet this IS the same thing you're trying to get all others to believe.

Yes, he has blue-eyes! No, that is not all there is to know about him.

You're missing it, Lynn.

You're relaying a physical attribute, not a part of the essence of his character.

And no one here is saying that Grace is all there is to God.

What we are saying is that it's the Grace of God that teaches us to say no to ungodliness and to live uprightly. Scripture tells us that the Spirit of God teaches us. Scripture also tells us not to insult the Spirit (capitalized, as in part of the Trinity) of Grace.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

The sun is a star = truth
Truth = God
God = Sun is a star?
(Your logic.)

No, that's like saying

Carrots are orange.

Pumpkins are orange.​

Carrots are pumpkins.​

The first two statements are true, but the last statement is demonstrably not true.


When we read in the Scriptures that God is love, we understand that love is an intrinsic part of Who God is.

Intrinsic: Of or relating to the essential nature of a thing; inherent

God wouldn't be God without love, grace, truth, holiness, righteousness, etc. . . . they are inseparable from Him.

Again, no one is trying to deify Grace. The capitalization of Grace, Truth, Love, Righteousness, Forgiveness, Life, Gospel etc. is to signify that they are OF God, and not common or of man.

-JGIG

 

[crossnote]

Col 3 is taking the reality of who we are, now comparing it to behavior. It's identity => behavior. Other times Paul takes behavior => identity.... But the pattern is the same. Who you NOW are in Christ. I'll show you. (And I'll use KJV since "mortify" is KJVish.)

1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

5Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

The word therefore points us to what was said prior... It's a conclusion.

You're dead to sin. Therefore act like it. Because that's who you really are.

Oh and David had the Spirit "upon" him. Not in him. We are new creations. We have the better promise. (Hebrews)

C.

Sorry, but it's stating in light of your position IN Christ, (risen etc.) mortify your members below. It's a comparison of opposites.
What you describe reminds me of Christian Science.

There is a REAL struggle with sin here below and it is not won by denying that there is a war going on within our members.
Yes we are to know who we are in Christ but that is to better equip us for the fight of faith, there are many more weapons we are to dawn...Eph 6.

And oh, David was a man after God's own heart, he confessed his sin and so should we.

 

[crossnote]

Never thought I'd see you propping up a straw man for so long, crossnote.

How about if YOU answer the question you've been repeatedly asking .

-JGIG

The answer is in the way I asked the question.
But here, I'll answer it for you. God is not grace. He acts graciously towards fallen man on account of the atoning work of Christ.
The fallen angels received no grace from God because God chose not to provide a means of atonement for them.
If God=Grace then He would be under compulsion to save the angels giving them what they don't deserve due to His (grace) nature.
Btw, first century Greek had no capitals.

 

[Cee]

Comparison of opposites?

It says YOU ARE DEAD.

Therefore.

Mortify your members.

What are you talking about opposites? It really means you are dead to sin. It's not a joke. It's the truth. You're dead to sin. And the more you believe it (renew your mind) the more you'll see it.

Put off the old man.
Put on the new man.
This is renewing the mind. (Eph 3)

Why do you put off the old man? Cuz he's dead. Really.

And as far as David is concerned he was a man after God's own heart, but WE are new creations. The old has died and the new has come. We know NO ONE after the flesh. 2 Co 5.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

And your statement there is a real struggle with sin. Is against Paul saying, why would we who have died to sin continue in it? You're free from sin. Sin wasn't your fight in the first place. Jesus took the sin because we couldn't and then in the process He made us new creation. If we would only believe it. The OT showed us that we can't handle sin. It always pointed to Christ. Our righteousness is filthy rags.

Romans 6:[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. [SUP]6 [/SUP]We know that our old self[SUP][a][/SUP] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. [SUP]7[/SUP]For one who has died has been set freefrom sin.

If saying we are free from sin is akin to Christian Science, then Paul obviously agrees.

As far as your Eph 6 reference, we do NOT fight flesh and blood. We fight with spiritual weapons.

When it comes to interpreting Scripture, we fall into error when we take interpretations of complex passages of Scripture over simple clear ones like I've shown here.

C.

Sorry, but it's stating in light of your position IN Christ, (risen etc.) mortify your members below. It's a comparison of opposites.
What you describe reminds me of Christian Science.

There is a REAL struggle with sin here below and it is not won by denying that there is a war going on within our members.
Yes we are to know who we are in Christ but that is to better equip us for the fight of faith, there are many more weapons we are to dawn...Eph 6.

And oh, David was a man after God's own heart, he confessed his sin and so should we.

 

[followjesus]

Col 3 is taking the reality of who we are, now comparing it to behavior. It's identity => behavior. Other times Paul takes behavior => identity.... But the pattern is the same. Who you NOW are in Christ. I'll show you. (And I'll use KJV since "mortify" is KJVish.)

1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

5Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

The word therefore points us to what was said prior... It's a conclusion.

You're dead to sin. Therefore act like it. Because that's who you really are.

Oh and David had the Spirit "upon" him. Not in him. We are new creations. We have the better promise. (Hebrews)

C.

not to interfere in your discussion but a question to c. what of the person who doesn't "act" like they are dead to sin, and instead follows the "dead" nature? is that believer still okay whether they act like their nature is dead, and refuse to act as if they are raised with Christ? so in essence of my question, does it matter how we act? whether new or old nature will we" reap what we sow" regarding those 2 natures ?


and also what of Christs words concerning His commands before john 14-15 and also after the cross matthew 28 :15-16. Doesn't the statement of the great commission in matthew 28 " go forth into all nations making disciples...teaching them to obey everything i have commanded you " set the foundation for the Church doctrine that was built upon by the apostles ?Isnt that how a person clothes themselves with Him? shouldn't Pauls words, connect with Jesus words or are we following Pauls teaching only ?

 

[Cee]

Hi Great questions!

First off we know that Christians struggle with their identity because Paul wrote extensively to Christians telling them over and over who they are in Christ. And he pointed to their behavior to show them that it wasn't matching up to them being in Christ. One time even going so far as to say, examine yourselves to see if you really are in Christ.

One Scripture that people love to quote is the one that says fornicators, liars, etc will not inherit the Kingdom, but very next verse Paul says, but that's not who you are... which is exactly what I am doing here. (Behavior => Identity).

As far as does it matter how we act. Yes of course it does. But there's a deeper level at play here. If we think we "have to" follow the things of God we still are discovering how good He is. As far as obeying my teaching that Jesus taught. Paul didn't detract from that. Like I've said grace empowers holiness. And in this case obedience.

The Kingdom of God is manifested on Earth when we obey the King. It's His Kingdom flowing through us from our obedience. It's His reign and rule.

Consider it like this, God loves a joyful giver. What is Paul saying here? True repentance comes from the heart. It's joyful. God doesn't want us to give because we "have to", but because we "want to". And while that seems like crazy talk to the natural mind, it's because it's supposed to be. We preach a supernatural Kingdom with a renewed mindset. It's NOT discerned by flesh. It's discerned by Spirit. And it's completely foolish to the wise.

One thing we must realize is that "principalities and powers" are watching us. God's character and nature is on exhibit for all to see. All of creation is waiting for the sons of God to be manifested. Why? Because we are made in His image.

The knowledge of His glory will cover the Earth. Notice it's not His glory, but the knowledge of His glory.
Moses interaction with God connects glory with His goodness. Moses asked to see His glory and God declared His goodness (not a peep about glory).

Knowing the goodness of God leads us into repentance. And it also reveals His glory.

C.

not to interfere in your discussion but a question to c. what of the person who doesn't "act" like they are dead to sin, and instead follows the "dead" nature? is that believer still okay whether they act like their nature is dead, and refuse to act as if they are raised with Christ? so in essence of my question, does it matter how we act? whether new or old nature will we" reap what we sow" regarding those 2 natures ?


and also what of Christs words concerning His commands before john 14-15 and also after the cross matthew 28 :15-16. Doesn't the statement of the great commission in matthew 28 " go forth into all nations making disciples...teaching them to obey everything i have commanded you " set the foundation for the Church doctrine that was built upon by the apostles ?Isnt that how a person clothes themselves with Him? shouldn't Pauls words, connect with Jesus words or are we following Pauls teaching only ?