Why Joseph Prince is a Cancerous Growth within God's People

[eternally-gratefull]

I do not know how much you have been reading the posts here.

The hyper-grace followers do not believe the Holy Spirit convicts about sin. They regard conviction of sin a work of satan.

We know you evidently do not read much, Because hypergrace followers do not believe this at all. This is just a strawman brought up by someone in the room. wich a lot of you have taken and run with it,

And I agree with HeRoseFromTheDead the position of the hyper-grace people is inconsistent and fluid. They hold a relativist position leaning on where their heart leads them rather than working through concepts.

I know how nice and glowing these preachers appear to be when you first hear them. It is all positive, inclusive and encouraging. Unfortunately that is advertising and not the Spirit of God. Righteousness, holiness is not all inclusive, sin is excluded. You cannot get in with dirty clothing or a free pass but no transformation.

Yep. Like HEROSE, you do not listen to what people say, So you do not know what they believe. and keep saying they say or believe things they do not. You just proved it again.

 

[PeterJens]

This explains a lot.

EG I know you too well. In your view you are a sinner lost and blind until you see Christ, because sin will never be free from who you are. What you think is I am a hypocrite who is self righteous.

The core of righteousness is if you follow Jesus, listen to His Spirit and do His works, you are righteous. If you have a sin and it is pointed out, you confess it and get right with God. Look at the prophets, David, Paul, the apostles. They walked in faith, and if they stumbled they got right with God. The measure is the intention of the heart and the walk, not theoretical I might fail so I cannot claim that which has been given to me. You are so close, yet fail to see the path and responsibility you have before Him.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So back to your point. Scripture tells us that as we see Him, we see ourselves. And we see ourselves, we see Him. I struggled with this understanding for awhile until Holy Spirit showed me what "in Christ, by Christ, and through Christ" means. In Christ is not about behavior, it's pointing to our identity. It is pointing to our new creation reality in Him. We are now good trees we bear good fruit. His law is written on our heart and mind. We have been washed, justified, and glorified in Him. We just don't know it. Because we see in part. But as we grow into a man we shall begin to know ourselves as we are already fully known.

Scripture says that Christ's glory is reflected off of us when we behold it, which transforms us into his image. This is a reference to when GOD's glory was mirrored off of Moses' face from beholding GOD on Mt Sinai.

Now we all with unvailed face, mirroring the Lord's glory, are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:18

And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him. Exodus 34:35​

The verse you quoted says nothing about being transformed into Christ's image by beholding ourselves in a mirror. It simply says that we don't have a clear view of him yet. Beholding yourself in a mirror will only bring you death.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG I know you too well. In your view you are a sinner lost and blind until you see Christ,

No, I do not believe that at all.

why do you even bother Peter. Every time you say you know me, you then follow that up by saying something totally outlandish, and something which does not represent me at all.

I am a sinner, Yes, The law shows me that every day, and then some.

But I am not lost. I am found, Because CHrist not only found me, But God adopted me and gave me the right to be called his son.

because sin will never be free from who you are. What you think is I am a hypocrite who is self righteous.

You just said "to be truthful no" when you were asked if you sinned, Then said, well yes you do still sin, But you ask for forgiveness.

That my friend is the definition of a hypocrite. You claimed to be sinless. But then admitted you are not.. You ask us to be what you admit you can not be.. Then you get mad at us?

The core of righteousness is if you follow Jesus, listen to His Spirit and do His works, you are righteous. If you have a sin and it is pointed out, you confess it and get right with God. Look at the prophets, David, Paul, the apostles. They walked in faith, and if they stumbled they got right with God. The measure is the intention of the heart and the walk, not theoretical I might fail so I cannot claim that which has been given to me. You are so close, yet fail to see the path and responsibility you have before Him.

No the core of righteousness is to reject your own righteousness, which is from the law. And receive in FAITH Gods righteousness.

Do this, and you will have a life changing experience which will change you for the better..

 

[crossnote]

Christians don't struggle with their identity, they struggle with the world, the flesh and sin.

This is ridiculous, so many here holding to half the new testament...the indicatives and refuse to see the imperatives.

 

[Grace777x70]

When we look into the mirror as we are beholding the glory of the Lord.....who do we see being reflected back? Our true selves in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness. We are in union with the Lord and we are transformed by the Holy Spirit.

If we do not understand our true identity is Christ we will be a spiritual mess. We are children of God but it is all Him and His life being manifested in us. It is the fruit of our union with Christ that bears His fruit in and through us.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Are being transformed is in the passive voice which means the Holy Spirit is transforming us..not ourselves by our own doing it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is ridiculous, so many here holding to half the new testament...the indicatives and refuse to see the imperatives.

do you have this backwards bro?

Indicative "because of this" Imperative "do that"

I see people hold to the imperatives, But deny the indicatives..

or do I have it backwards??..lol

 

[Grace777x70]

do you have this backwards bro?

Indicative "because of this" Imperative "do that"

I see people hold to the imperatives, But deny the indicatives..

or do I have it backwards??..lol

The imperatives to the new man in Christ are really His enablements by His grace through faith. If we take away how we sit first in Christ in His completed work - we create a behavior modification program which neglects the work of the Spirit in our lives to manifest the exchanged life we have now in Christ.

 

[B1Davanda]

Identity can't save anyone.

Never said it could. Identity is who you are. Not what you want to become..

But it will change a life.. And has been doing so for centuries..

now, would you like to show me where I was wrong in my comments about how we struggle with the flesh and sin because we struggle with our identity? or is this all you have?

IMO..one of the beautiful aspects of the parable of the "loving Father" as I like to refer to it....is when the son came to his Father who ran to kiss and fall upon his neck - his Father gave him his true identity back as a the son that he really was. He gave him a ring of authority, shoes for his feet that speak of his sonship, and the robe of the house.

IMO knowing that we are in fact "in Christ" in truth in our new man and it's in the knowing of our true identity in Him is where we can start to walk in our sonship with Christ our Lord and manifest outwardly the life of Christ in and through us to a hurt world and to our fellow brethren who are in Christ with us.

Gee, thanks, brothers...
I hate when I'm reading along, and I'm getting ready to reply to a post, like the first one above, with one of my outstanding and wittily insightful responses, and I read a little further, and you guys have already answered...almost word for word, lol. Will you ppl please stop stealing my thunder...it's damaging my already fragile ego.

But just to add my 2 sense ...... taste, and see .....

Oh ... 2 cents ... It is our identity IN CHRIST that saves us.
We pray, 'Our Father' in heaven. We've been adopted into His family,
and our heavenly Father is not in the business of casting out His children.

The bible says they will know us
by the love we have one for another.
There's something about being in the family of God
that is so unique and almost unexplainable, but is a very real
identity.....Sometimes you can be with a total stranger, but you
find out they're a christian,
(sometimes you might even 'know' before being told),
and that 'identity' is confirming.

To as many as have received Him, to them He gave the power to become sons of God, even to those who BELIEVE IN HIS NAME.....There's our identity, HE is our salvation! we're identified with Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour, and anyone who doesn't believe in Him does not have that identity.

Maybe it's nit-picking semantics to say if we're 'saved by our identity' or not,
but the point is the same. If we don't have our identity In Christ, we're not saved, but we have our identity In Christ, we're saved. Praise the Lord!

 

[crossnote]

And lastly, we are transformed into Christ's image (which includes the renewing of the mind) by beholding him, not our own identity.

Did someone miss this ??

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
(2Co 3:17-18)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So you believe you know them better than they know themselves. This is where your lens has been damaged by the lies of the enemy. The truth is that the Spirit of God, His Holy Spirit is the one who leads and even convicts of sin. Not you. You obviously listen to His voice, but if you believe you are right and everyone else is wrong, that's a dangerous path of pride. And it takes away from Scripture that says we need each other.

Scripture tells us if we honor one another, we can receive each others reward. I know we have had a few disagreements in the past, but usually I go and pray about things and God tells me He has you and He guides you. I believe you are one of the reasons why I keep coming back to these threads, I am following His Spirit.

So do we judge His servants? No.

The Lord alone knows the intentions of the heart, He alone searches it. And He is the Teacher of Truth who persuades and convinces people of His ways. Remember the Spirit guides each person.

The problem is that they don't know what they believe. They believe and repeat what they've been taught, but when that's shown to not align with scripture, they try to reframe and redefine everything to where it sounds acceptable, and then accuse us of misrepresenting their position. I know this because I've been watching it unfold for the past 6 months. Even right now you're trying to pretend that hyper grace doctrine is no different than normal doctrine, and using words that make it seem so. But I know it's not the truth because I know what hyper grace doctrine teaches. So it's all just a shell game to keep the lid from being taken off the scam.

And yes, we have the authority to discern and judge all things pertaining to the church.

 

[Angela53510]

Understood.

Here's the thing: Spirit of grace IS capitalized in Hebrews 10:29.

29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot,who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit [G4151] of grace? (from Heb. 10)​

Strong's G4151 - pneuma​

1. 
   [*=2]the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son

1. 
   [*=3]sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the "Holy" Spirit)
   [*=3]sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")
   [*=3]never referred to as a depersonalised force

Just as you wouldn't separate 'Holy' from 'Spirit', you wouldn't separate 'grace' from 'Spirit', as grace is an intrinsic characteristic of Who the Spirit is.

Whether or not you think it should be capitalized is another issue, and one could say that love should never be capitalized, either, yet the Scriptures clearly tell us that "God is love", so in making points in a forum such as this, I don't think it wholly inappropriate to capitalize either Love or Grace.

Titus 2 tells us this:


11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled,upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (from Titus 2)

We know from other Scripture that the Holy Spirit is our teacher:


26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (from Jn. 14)


No one here is trying to deify grace/Grace, but we must be careful to not separate Grace from God, just as we would not separate Love from God or Holy from God or Truth from God.


-JGIG

I'm kind of confused about your point, here! You tell me the "Spirit of grace" is capitalized, but in fact the word "grace" is not capitalized either in your post, nor in any version I could find.

"How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?" Heb. 10:29

And of course the word "Spirit" is capitalized! It is just the shortened form of Holy Spirit. I was quite clear in my last post that Holy Spirit is a person, and therefore needs to be capitalized. And "Holy" Spirit is capitalized because it is the recognized proper NAME of God the Spirit. God is holy, there is no doubt. But when is capitalized, Holy Spirit is the name - not the attribute!

Grace is an attribute of God. It is not a proper noun. Hence, in English, it is not capitalized. Which has been my point through countless posts on this thread. Love is also an attribute or characteristic of God. In fact, God is love! But it is still not capitalized. It is not good grammar nor good theology.

Of course, we really are just talking about English language conventions. As I said earlier, the first New Testament manuscripts were all majescules, or capital letters. The later ones use some punctuation, but not as much as we do in English. Ephesians is probably the best example of run on sentences. But because that makes reading very unwieldy in English, most translators divide the paragraphs into sentences. So sometimes the English versions have to bow to English usage, in order to make the verses understandable.

The point being, that neither grace nor love should be capitalized. Instead, the persons who have these eternal attributes should be given the glory and the honour - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

(Wait! I already said that!)

I will say, the more people defend this misuse of the words for the characteristics of God, the more I lean towards the fact that the Word Faith is a cult that is leading people astray and away from God in new and different ways!

 

[PeterJens]

We know you evidently do not read much, Because hypergrace followers do not believe this at all. This is just a strawman brought up by someone in the room. wich a lot of you have taken and run with it

EG - you are actually wrong. grace7x77 holds to this, along with a number of his followers.

You are slightly different from them but you are unaware of this as have not been involved in conversations going back months. It is also well documented this position about conviction of sin. But you obviously do not read up about the different schools of thought and where they have led.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG - you are actually wrong. grace7x77 holds to this, along with a number of his followers.

No they do not, and they have stated such over and over again. I have seen it, I have even asked tham that myself.

You are slightly different from them but you are unaware of this as have not been involved in conversations going back months. It is also well documented this position about conviction of sin. But you obviously do not read up about the different schools of thought and where they have led.

I have seen Grace777 say not only is confession important, but also that one of the jobs of the HS is to convict of sin..

some people either do not read well. Or selectively read only what they want to read.

 

[Willie-T]

I do not know how much you have been reading the posts here.

The hyper-grace followers do not believe the Holy Spirit convicts about sin. They regard conviction of sin a work of satan.

And I agree with HeRoseFromTheDead the position of the hyper-grace people is inconsistent and fluid. They hold a relativist position leaning on where their heart leads them rather than working through concepts.

I know how nice and glowing these preachers appear to be when you first hear them. It is all positive, inclusive and encouraging. Unfortunately that is advertising and not the Spirit of God. Righteousness, holiness is not all inclusive, sin is excluded. You cannot get in with dirty clothing or a free pass but no transformation.

Did you totally flunk all of your reading classes? LOL I know of no one who says anything of the sort, You appear to have heard maybe the first three words of a statement somewhere, then frozen your opinion that those three words were all that was spoken.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Did someone miss this ??

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
(2Co 3:17-18)

They confuse that verse with 1 Corinthians 13:12 which simply says that we don't see Christ clearly now - unclearly as in an ancient mirror. In the verse you quoted, beholding the lord's glory as in a mirror really means that his glory is reflected (mirrored) off of us as we behold him, much like what happened with Moses on Mt Sinai. We reflect his glory; we don't see it in a mirror.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did you totally flunk all of your reading classes? LOL I know of no one who says anything of the sort, You appear to have heard maybe the first three words of a statement somewhere, then frozen your opinion that those three words were all that was spoken.

From what I can gather, One of their buddies said it awhile ago. Or they read it of some article on the internet, And they took it as truth (talk about blind faith) and ran with it.

The truth seems not to matter in some things I guess .

 

[PeterJens]

No, I do not believe that at all.

why do you even bother Peter. Every time you say you know me, you then follow that up by saying something totally outlandish, and something which does not represent me at all.

I am a sinner, Yes, The law shows me that every day, and then some.

How is it I do not feel condemnation everyday from the law and yet you do. You hold that you are free from condemnation. It sounds to me like you are saying everyday you knowingly sin. Now you have been a christian for many years and claim some authority yet continue in blatant rebellion.

I cannot take you seriously because it is like a sinner justifying their lostness and then saying Christ has set them free, yet everyday they find they are not free at all, but repeat the same behaviours they regard as sin. How can you claim to be a believer and yet give in to the kingdom of darkness without even a fight. It is true on your testimony you cannot claim to be walking in righteousness and purity.

But this is what Jesus talked about being in darkness, hiding sin from the light. Why should I believe any words you say as you testify rather than being obedient to Christ you set your heart against Him and do not keep His commands.

Paul exhorts people to examine themselves and their behaviour to see if they are in Christ or not. And if not to repent and do that which God convicts them to do in righteousness and holiness.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Did you totally flunk all of your reading classes? LOL I know of no one who says anything of the sort, You appear to have heard maybe the first three words of a statement somewhere, then frozen your opinion that those three words were all that was spoken.

No, Peter knows what he's talking about. I've read that as well.

 

[crossnote]

do you have this backwards bro?

Indicative "because of this" Imperative "do that"

I see people hold to the imperatives, But deny the indicatives..

or do I have it backwards??..lol

The hyper grace crowd are camping out on the indicatives,,,what Christ has done, but refuse to go on with the imperatives. They think the indicatives are sufficient for a fruitful walk. They may be the basis for our walk, just as the Paschal lamb was the basis for the Israelites walk, but there comes a time we are to follow and look to Christ...continually, not ONLY our position.

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
(1Co 10:1-4)

I walk by the grace of a living risen Savior, looking to and actively depending on Him, not a cleverly crafted doctrine/formula of man.