Total inability - original sin - inherited from adam
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What is hyper-legalism?
Making Gods law so difficult to fulfill, everyone would be considered a sinner every day. Example. It is sin to think about something else other than God at some point during a 24 hour period. That is not loving God with all you heart, strength and might.
This was quoted to me as a reason why we are sinners lost in sin and it is impossible to be righteous.
Funnily me quoting it here in this way will be regarded as slander and sin. Muslims used this tactic as well. If you took something they said and made it look wrong that was evil. Notice the morality. What is the spirit or feeling you are creating when you share this idea that defines good or evil not the actual issues, which is where morality actually reside. Now I am attempting to separate the words from individuals, and focus on the concepts.
It is then up to people personally to then say this is what they agree with or not. If I call someone a hyper-legalist it is because they have used this kind of theology and I hope they are honest enough to admit it. It becomes absurd if they simply denying their own arguments, because it invalidates previous exchanges and credibility 100%. It is why I have no feelings of credibility anymore and do not trust anything they share. If I share what I believe, that is what I believe full stop. This is the way Jesus has taught me.
I am not trying to be self righteous, or self justifying, I am distinguishing between walking in the light and walking in darkness.
Making Gods law so difficult to fulfill, everyone would be considered a sinner every day. Example. It is sin to think about something else other than God at some point during a 24 hour period. That is not loving God with all you heart, strength and might.
This was quoted to me as a reason why we are sinners lost in sin and it is impossible to be righteous.
Funnily me quoting it here in this way will be regarded as slander and sin. Muslims used this tactic as well. If you took something they said and made it look wrong that was evil. Notice the morality. What is the spirit or feeling you are creating when you share this idea that defines good or evil not the actual issues, which is where morality actually reside. Now I am attempting to separate the words from individuals, and focus on the concepts.
It is then up to people personally to then say this is what they agree with or not. If I call someone a hyper-legalist it is because they have used this kind of theology and I hope they are honest enough to admit it. It becomes absurd if they simply denying their own arguments, because it invalidates previous exchanges and credibility 100%. It is why I have no feelings of credibility anymore and do not trust anything they share. If I share what I believe, that is what I believe full stop. This is the way Jesus has taught me.
I am not trying to be self righteous, or self justifying, I am distinguishing between walking in the light and walking in darkness.
It's a puzzle only because of preconceived notions.
And I have to warn you that I don't have all the answers.
I also have to say that if it causes severe hatred, I will not continue unless by pm.
So, cutie pie ariel, what are you thinking? Any impressions?
A
*Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.*Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.*And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.*Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.*Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts.*And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. - Colossians 3:12-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians3:12-17&version=NIV
Another thought on hyper-legalism
If you make sin insermountable, then you have created of version of total inability.
My thoughts are that Ezek 18:21 + 24 show you can be regarded as righteous, having a relationship with God or loosing it depending on behaviour.
John in revelation 22 talks about some people being holy. Paul talks about living pure, holy, blameless examples.
None of these verses talks about imputed holiness etc. so it is possible to be acceptable to the Lord because of Christ and his work in our hearts.
Now you can construct a different theology but you have to show how these simple statement in scripture are wrong or this interpretation is wrong.
Now the disciples who followed Jesus were perfect, as Matthew quotes Jesus, giving up your wealth and following him is perfection. Now this is not our construct of perfect, but rather walking appropriately until you stumble. This is well illustrated with Peter and his denial of Christ. Without keeping faith in Christ he would have been lost.
Now much of these ideas will be hard to some readers, because it means the pain of changing how they think and relate to Jesus, which teacher who might now be regarded as heretics and who are now brothers and sisters in Christ who before were enemies.
You cannot under estimate the cost of doing such things. It splits families, creates arguments, upset etc. So not surprising there might be turmoil and antagonism expressed here from the group who this theology challenges and undermines their position. They are unlikely to sit idly by and say this is fine. In their eyes it is a work of satan.
If you make sin insermountable, then you have created of version of total inability.
My thoughts are that Ezek 18:21 + 24 show you can be regarded as righteous, having a relationship with God or loosing it depending on behaviour.
John in revelation 22 talks about some people being holy. Paul talks about living pure, holy, blameless examples.
None of these verses talks about imputed holiness etc. so it is possible to be acceptable to the Lord because of Christ and his work in our hearts.
Now you can construct a different theology but you have to show how these simple statement in scripture are wrong or this interpretation is wrong.
Now the disciples who followed Jesus were perfect, as Matthew quotes Jesus, giving up your wealth and following him is perfection. Now this is not our construct of perfect, but rather walking appropriately until you stumble. This is well illustrated with Peter and his denial of Christ. Without keeping faith in Christ he would have been lost.
Now much of these ideas will be hard to some readers, because it means the pain of changing how they think and relate to Jesus, which teacher who might now be regarded as heretics and who are now brothers and sisters in Christ who before were enemies.
You cannot under estimate the cost of doing such things. It splits families, creates arguments, upset etc. So not surprising there might be turmoil and antagonism expressed here from the group who this theology challenges and undermines their position. They are unlikely to sit idly by and say this is fine. In their eyes it is a work of satan.
I have to be honest, threads like this tend to get too closed in thinking, so if it is relevant, share away.
It is easy to not see the vast diversity that such subjects cover, and it does matter if we an broaden insights etc. because I often get unexpectedly blessed like Ezek 18, and my approach generally is the more the better, unless it gets too difficult to follow ofcourse.
It is easy to not see the vast diversity that such subjects cover, and it does matter if we an broaden insights etc. because I often get unexpectedly blessed like Ezek 18, and my approach generally is the more the better, unless it gets too difficult to follow ofcourse.
OKay peter, let's talk about yourposts .
Sorry hRFTD,but peter himself has committed to talking about this by being kind enough to answer and try again to stop the argument.
It's his thread so I guess he can go back to the derail if he wants to.
Hopefully, we can all at least come closer to understanding each other, even if there might be some points we disagree on.
Peter, what is your opinion on how to tackle this. Point by point from the first of your two latest posts?
Does that seem good?
Sorry hRFTD,but peter himself has committed to talking about this by being kind enough to answer and try again to stop the argument.
It's his thread so I guess he can go back to the derail if he wants to.
Hopefully, we can all at least come closer to understanding each other, even if there might be some points we disagree on.
Peter, what is your opinion on how to tackle this. Point by point from the first of your two latest posts?
Does that seem good?
saviour sent by god. (job done etc.) (around 1-33ad)
so me and you, if the bible is correct, were born into a new covenant. not an old covenant, and that would be, a fact to all believers either jews or gentiles. etc
6 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.John 3 (around 1-33 ad )
i don t have an opinion ,to a foundation, if the bible is being incorrectly interpreted.
you need to belief in, to walk in. not a personal opinion. this is what the bible teaching you. if you believe that is.
you will never connect to the spiritual, by climbing over, what has already been laid as a foundation.
the gospel message, is the same. jesus christ. for all believers.
(for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles)
Justified by Faith
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.Galatians 2
be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified
both jewish christian paul to peter.
job done.
now nobody can get to god. except through jesus.
two ministries jew and gentile, (all the world, humans) to form one new belief system, called christian believers.
and how paul, talked about spiritual gifts, is a clue, how to grow spiritual in christ, yet if you miss foundational teachings then you have no chance, to climb out of human teachings, you will be trapped in delusion of man made religion idea.
so me and you, if the bible is correct, were born into a new covenant. not an old covenant, and that would be, a fact to all believers either jews or gentiles. etc
6 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.John 3 (around 1-33 ad )
i don t have an opinion ,to a foundation, if the bible is being incorrectly interpreted.
you need to belief in, to walk in. not a personal opinion. this is what the bible teaching you. if you believe that is.
you will never connect to the spiritual, by climbing over, what has already been laid as a foundation.
the gospel message, is the same. jesus christ. for all believers.
(for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles)
Justified by Faith
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.Galatians 2
be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified
both jewish christian paul to peter.
job done.
now nobody can get to god. except through jesus.
two ministries jew and gentile, (all the world, humans) to form one new belief system, called christian believers.
and how paul, talked about spiritual gifts, is a clue, how to grow spiritual in christ, yet if you miss foundational teachings then you have no chance, to climb out of human teachings, you will be trapped in delusion of man made religion idea.
By the way this is not "my" thread, I am just a proposer of a subject to explore. By the way I am almost impossible to offend but I will put logical constructs to build or show positions, either my own or someone elses. I have no bias other than I will tell you where I am starting. I just want to follow truth.
Okay!
So first paragraph, you say someone told you that to think anything other than about God 24/7 was not loving God with all your heart. Is this hyper grace belief? And if it is, does every single person who you call hyper grace also believe it?
I will give my opinion of it. I think it's nonsense. But you are under the belief that EG, and G777 believe this?
They can answer the first point themselves, as to whether they do or don't agree with the person who originally said it.
So first paragraph, you say someone told you that to think anything other than about God 24/7 was not loving God with all your heart. Is this hyper grace belief? And if it is, does every single person who you call hyper grace also believe it?
I will give my opinion of it. I think it's nonsense. But you are under the belief that EG, and G777 believe this?
They can answer the first point themselves, as to whether they do or don't agree with the person who originally said it.
ok ,then the same point, is to the starter of the forum topic. , lol
and to the twisters of words, etc
saviour sent by god. (job done etc.) (around 1-33ad)
so me and you, if the bible is correct, were born into a new covenant. not an old covenant, and that would be, a fact to all believers either jews or gentiles. etc
6 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.John 3 (around 1-33 ad )
i don t have an opinion ,to a foundation, if the bible is being incorrectly interpreted.
you need to belief in, to walk in. not a personal opinion. this is what the bible teaching you. if you believe that is.
you will never connect to the spiritual, by climbing over, what has already been laid as a foundation.
the gospel message, is the same. jesus christ. for all believers.
(for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles)
Justified by Faith
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.Galatians 2
be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified
both jewish christian paul to peter.
job done.
now nobody can get to god. except through jesus.
two ministries jew and gentile, (all the world, humans) to form one new belief system, called christian believers.
and how paul, talked about spiritual gifts, is a clue, how to grow spiritual in christ, yet if you miss foundational teachings then you have no chance, to climb out of human teachings, you will be trapped in delusion of man made religion idea.
and to the twisters of words, etc
saviour sent by god. (job done etc.) (around 1-33ad)
so me and you, if the bible is correct, were born into a new covenant. not an old covenant, and that would be, a fact to all believers either jews or gentiles. etc
6 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.John 3 (around 1-33 ad )
i don t have an opinion ,to a foundation, if the bible is being incorrectly interpreted.
you need to belief in, to walk in. not a personal opinion. this is what the bible teaching you. if you believe that is.
you will never connect to the spiritual, by climbing over, what has already been laid as a foundation.
the gospel message, is the same. jesus christ. for all believers.
(for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles)
Justified by Faith
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.Galatians 2
be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified
both jewish christian paul to peter.
job done.
now nobody can get to god. except through jesus.
two ministries jew and gentile, (all the world, humans) to form one new belief system, called christian believers.
and how paul, talked about spiritual gifts, is a clue, how to grow spiritual in christ, yet if you miss foundational teachings then you have no chance, to climb out of human teachings, you will be trapped in delusion of man made religion idea.