Total inability - original sin - inherited from adam

[PeterJens]

Okay!

So first paragraph, you say someone told you that to think anything other than about God 24/7 was not loving God with all your heart. Is this hyper grace belief? And if it is, does every single person who you call hyper grace also believe it?

I will give my opinion of it. I think it's nonsense. But you are under the belief that EG, and G777 believe this?
They can answer the first point themselves, as to whether they do or don't agree with the person who originally said it.

There are two different issues here. A group who have a varied theological background now put themselves under a hyper-grace umbrella. Within this umbrella there are some core theological ideas. Hyper-grace label is a more modern general term that people have adopted. Grace7 came as a teacher of such positions. It then followed that some as they read what this group hold to, said the hold to a similar position.

Now the idea I have called hyper-legalism is just an argument I have seen used by EG and a user Ben. It was used as a counter to believing you can walk righteously. It is not part of anything written about, it is a label I invented to show the type of thinking behind it. Now Grace7 I do not know his position on this, because I have not interacted with him much.

It is just a useful label, but because it is powerful, it obviously takes away another argument in their armour.
Does that help?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Okay!

So first paragraph, you say someone told you that to think anything other than about God 24/7 was not loving God with all your heart. Is this hyper grace belief? And if it is, does every single person who you call hyper grace also believe it?

I will give my opinion of it. I think it's nonsense. But you are under the belief that EG, and G777 believe this?
They can answer the first point themselves, as to whether they do or don't agree with the person who originally said it.

This is ridiculous. Why even have OP titles or subjects? I like the subject, but it's for another thread.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

No I don't. I would like to continue with the discussion of total inability - the OP.

And...you don't think any of the verses I gave apply?
Even, if we abide in Him, we do not sin...?
Actually, I'll have to hold that thought because peter and EG have both committed to try to work this through once more.
I can explain why I think the verses are relevant to the discussion once we address peters last two posts.

 

[royalscot]

invent or inventing, is adding to, what is already been said.

14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, "If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?"Galatians 2:

is an example to what some are trying to teach.

telling gentiles to become jewish, ie ( by retuning to law. )

 

[PeterJens]

We're adults, not children. Your approach is encouraging an environment of snowflakes that melt at the slightest perceived offense. Look to the world, that is the way they operate.

I agree that the people who claim they have been insulted and degraded often do exactly that to people they do not like.
Her ladyship always cut people to ribbons and then denied she did anything. It was stunning to see the emotional effect but everyone else would think almost nothing bad that was said. Now that was a real skill, but your words were a little stronger lol. I have to reflect there are some seriously equipped people, who innocents would think do not exist in these spiritual environments. Throwing in a picture of wolves is a classic tactic, crude but certainly provocative. If one wanted to take offence one could, but Jesus calls us to ignore it, because it really does not matter.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

There are two different issues here. A group who have a varied theological background now put themselves under a hyper-grace umbrella. Within this umbrella there are some core theological ideas. Hyper-grace label is a more modern general term that people have adopted. Grace7 came as a teacher of such positions. It then followed that some as they read what this group hold to, said the hold to a similar position.

Now the idea I have called hyper-legalism is just an argument I have seen used by EG and a user Ben. It was used as a counter to believing you can walk righteously. It is not part of anything written about, it is a label I invented to show the type of thinking behind it. Now Grace7 I do not know his position on this, because I have not interacted with him much.

It is just a useful label, but because it is powerful, it obviously takes away another argument in their armour.
Does that help?

Oh good! This is helpful!
What are the core theological beliefs?
I don't think anyone you've mentioned thinks to be holy or walk righteously means you must have no other thought but God 24/7. I think that is...more of an aberrant belief, don't you?

 

[PeterJens]

This is ridiculous. Why even have OP titles or subjects? I like the subject, but it's for another thread.

Ok. Lets stick to this thread. Stunned, I will start a thread called stunned.

 

[Grace777x70]

Okay!

So first paragraph, you say someone told you that to think anything other than about God 24/7 was not loving God with all your heart. Is this hyper grace belief? And if it is, does every single person who you call hyper grace also believe it?

I will give my opinion of it. I think it's nonsense. But you are under the belief that EG, and G777 believe this?
They can answer the first point themselves, as to whether they do or don't agree with the person who originally said it.

I can't speak for EG here but for me -

I have never heard anyone say that if someone doesn't think about God 24/7 is not loving God with all their heart. This is a new statement for me. I'm not saying that someone didn't say it...it's just I have never heard anyone do so myself.

I do believe that it is impossible for us in our own strength to truly love God with all our heart as the commandment is stated in the Old Covenant. Something at some time in our life gets in the way of being able to do this if we are honest with ourselves.

It is the greatest commandment in the Law Jesus said. I thank God that Jesus fulfilled the Law and that we Christians are in Him now and as we rely on His life inside of us - we can express that love out.

 

[Ariel82]

This is ridiculous. Why even have OP titles or subjects? I like the subject, but it's for another thread.

They are like billboard ads....gets people,into the store.

Lol trying to get people to stay on topic is like herding kittens...good luck if u want to try.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I agree that the people who claim they have been insulted and degraded often do exactly that to people they do not like.
Her ladyship always cut people to ribbons and then denied she did anything. It was stunning to see the emotional effect but everyone else would think almost nothing bad that was said. Now that was a real skill, but your words were a little stronger lol. I have to reflect there are some seriously equipped people, who innocents would think do not exist in these spiritual environments. Throwing in a picture of wolves is a classic tactic, crude but certainly provocative. If one wanted to take offence one could, but Jesus calls us to ignore it, because it really does not matter.

I think G77 regrets having done that, but we can save all that for the other thread you created for us.

 

[Ariel82]

We're adults, not children. Your approach is encouraging an environment of snowflakes that melt at the slightest perceived offense. Look to the world, that is the way they operate.

I would rather look at Christ and see how He operates and look radically different from the world.

What's wrong with being a child? Ever been in a blizzard?

Wouldn't laugh at snowflakes then.

I am a child of God and I think it better to tame my tongue then let my "opinions" degrade others.

 

[Ariel82]

I agree that the people who claim they have been insulted and degraded often do exactly that to people they do not like.
Her ladyship always cut people to ribbons and then denied she did anything. It was stunning to see the emotional effect but everyone else would think almost nothing bad that was said. Now that was a real skill, but your words were a little stronger lol. I have to reflect there are some seriously equipped people, who innocents would think do not exist in these spiritual environments. Throwing in a picture of wolves is a classic tactic, crude but certainly provocative. If one wanted to take offence one could, but Jesus calls us to ignore it, because it really does not matter.

Nope, no denials. But it's sad you don't even consider examining your own heart and seeing if your tactics might be wrong.

At least you have stop telling people what they think for a bit. Maybe it will last.

It's a two edged sword but to few use it to cut the lies out of their own lives.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Okay, all will be happy and relieved to know that peter has kindly started the thread titled "Stunned" for the side conversation to continue.

Here we will discuss what we were originally discussing! YAY!! I have a lot of interest in it!

 

[Grace777x70]

I think G77 regrets having done that, but we can save all that for the other thread you created for us.

I do not have any regrets to posting that picture of wolves biting one another at all. Ariel was being "bitten" by another poster and she said she was leaving. ( whether to do with what the poster said to her - that I don't know ) I told her it was a great idea.

There is a massive difference to having a difference of beliefs and people are allowed to agree to disagree too.

But to insult others is not acceptable and I believe that is what EG is trying to get across to us if I read him correctly.

Some people call it "expressing their opinion"..when they insult others...

Others call it " Not if it's insulting and degrading to another person....those opinions should be kept to themselves. Very unchrist like behavior"

Galatians 5:14-15 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

 

[Ariel82]

ok ,then the same point, is to the starter of the forum topic. , lol

and to the twisters of words, etc

saviour sent by god. (job done etc.) (around 1-33ad)

so me and you, if the bible is correct, were born into a new covenant. not an old covenant, and that would be, a fact to all believers either jews or gentiles. etc

6 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.John 3 (around 1-33 ad )

i don t have an opinion ,to a foundation, if the bible is being incorrectly interpreted.
you need to belief in, to walk in. not a personal opinion. this is what the bible teaching you. if you believe that is.

you will never connect to the spiritual, by climbing over, what has already been laid as a foundation.

the gospel message, is the same. jesus christ. for all believers.

(for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles)

Justified by Faith
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.Galatians 2

be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified

both jewish christian paul to peter.

job done.

now nobody can get to god. except through jesus.

two ministries jew and gentile, (all the world, humans) to form one new belief system, called christian believers.

and how paul, talked about spiritual gifts, is a clue, how to grow spiritual in christ, yet if you miss foundational teachings then you have no chance, to climb out of human teachings, you will be trapped in delusion of man made religion idea.

Amen...without the foundation, without Christ, without the Holy Spirit we would,be stuck with man made religion that enslaved people to laws and twist them into knots about self instead of about God.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

So the last thing I remember from the previous conversation was that we were discussing whether God intends for us to grow in holiness here on earth.

I remember some of the vss I brought up.

You must be holy because I am holy. (My thought was, if He has said it, He hasn't changed His mind on it!)
Another was, if we abide in Him, we do not sin. (My thought there was that...this should be my main focus - to abide - because when I do, I don't sin!)

Was that where we were, peter?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Amen...without the foundation, without Christ, without the Holy Spirit we would,be stuck with man made religion that enslaved people to laws and twist them into knots about self instead of about God.

I think peter was saying this very thing too! He said...ideas that...just make it impossible and enslave people when Christ died so that we could become more and more like Him with the Holy Spirits help!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So the last thing I remember from the previous conversation was that we were discussing whether God intends for us to grow in holiness here on earth.

I remember some of the vss I brought up.

You must be holy because I am holy. (My thought was, if He has said it, He hasn't changed His mind on it!)
Another was, if we abide in Him, we do not sin. (My thought there was that...this should be my main focus - to abide - because when I do, I don't sin!)

Was that where we were, peter?

Exactly. Why say be holy, be perfect (whole, complete, blameless, fully mature) if he didn't mean it?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Amen...without the foundation, without Christ, without the Holy Spirit we would,be stuck with man made religion that enslaved people to laws and twist them into knots about self instead of about God.

And the holy spirit brings us understanding, knowledge, wisdom, the fear of GOD, godliness, strength and counsel. With these things we can do GOD's will.

 

[PeterJens]

Nope, no denials. But it's sad you don't even consider examining your own heart and seeing if your tactics might be wrong.

At least you have stop telling people what they think for a bit. Maybe it will last.

It's a two edged sword but to few use it to cut the lies out of their own lives.

Ariel - have you ever seen the six stages of communication

1. What you want to say
2. What you think you said
3. What you actually said
4. What was they actually heard
5. What they thought they heard
6. What they thought it meant

Now at each step mistakes can be made. For good communication you repeat back your understanding.
Now some people create a different version. Get asked a question then respond with a completely different answer and intimate the person actually said something totally different.

After months of this type of interaction things have got more real. When facts are not forth coming I create a reasonable summary of the positions. In general this works, but it is a bit flaky.

Things though have deterioated because the arguments are being lost, and that seriously annoys them.
The latest attempts is to get me banned, but that does not work if you cannot provoke them enough.

It is why things go quiet for ages, because repeating the same theology does not work or provoking with every tactic.
Am I innocent? I just do not think like that. I just explore ideas and positions and put forward arguments.