Total inability - original sin - inherited from adam

UnderGrace · Jun 14, 2016

I understand very well what you mean Stunnedbygrace, I lived that way for many years and it was difficult. I think if I can tell you one thing is that all the scriptures that that G777x70 posted is that you have to believe them for yourself, take ownership of them much like when you were born again and trust that God will compete what He has started in you. In my experience God rewards belief and trust. To be humble is to bring yourself in agreement with God, that is what He desires.

If you focus on your sin that is what you will conform to because sin is that powerful, if however you believe in His words as they have been shared by G777x70 that is what will be formed in you.
I suggest your read the link I shared below. Paul Ellis (Escape to Reality) has excellent insight.

Be blessed,
Angela

Stunnedbygrace · Jun 14, 2016

UnderGrace said:

Oh I DO believe He will finish the good work He began in me! I KNOW He will!

He has never let me down yet!
But to me, there is a big difference in saying He WILL versus He has already completed it.
I understand some think when Jesus said, it is finished, this means He has already made them perfect.
My difference is that I believe when He said, it is finished, He meant the work He had come to do regarding paying for our sin to set us free from the penalty by taking it on Himself and buying us back.
Do you see the difference in my mind?

UnderGrace · Jun 14, 2016

Stunnedbygrace said:

I do understand what you are saying for sure. I agree that there is the finished work of the cross that He was speaking about it and yes he did pay the penalty for our sin and bought us back. It does not end there, His righteousness is a completed work in us Paul tells us this many times. To grow in that knowledge of Jesus means understanding and believing in that completed work. He was indeed the propitiation for our sin, but in Him we are justified, sanctified and made righteous.

Angela

PeterJens · Jun 15, 2016

"Total inability"

The sub text to saying I know there is sin in my life but I most focus on God is not Gods way.
Gods way is repent, confess, desire forgiveness and walk in righteousness.

We know we will arrive at the goal set before us, but we are commited to stay in relationship with God and walk on.

If you abandon these steps, you abandon the walk and accept defeat. This is why I oppose this theology and believe it causes people to not enter and walk in the Kingdom.

PeterJens · Jun 15, 2016

Condemnation refusal

Jesus does not reject us because we are convicted of sin, he accepts us because we have repented and conviction show you are still spiritually alive. Rather than feeling convicted is bad, it shows God cares and Jesus is still working with you.

It is by working with God and growing in love that we become like Him, children of the living God.

If you reject Gods conviction, and his desire for confession, healing and change, you quench the spirit and rebel. If conviction no longer happens and you are bound in sin, you have successfully walked away from the living God, though your words and outward signs might appear otherwise.

To those not in rebellion this is the problem of following this road, it can lead to a dead heart and an unchanged life.

PeterJens · Jun 15, 2016

Straw men

A working example is a key way you show issues you are trying to address. Those who hate such analogies, just want to stop proper discussion about weaknesses in their own position.

Jesus used straw men all the time in parables, to demonstrate who he was talking to and why they failed.
If God uses pictures, analogies, straw men then so should we, and those who fear such things show their true position, which is emotional confidence on a sandy foundation.

Another phrase is "Christian porn"

If you want to learn the weaknesses of you own position, listen to your enemies. They will always show you what the problems are and how they can be found. It could be that they are right.

There is a phrase keep your friends close and your enemies closer still. Again those who fear the weakness of their position hate the tools of those who would challenge them.

Both teachings, anti illustrations, anti criticism, leave people open to indoctrination and brain washing.

In Jesus there is no fear. In truth, you discover it by exploring, trusting and taking risks. It is hard, the road is tough, but this is what Jesus calls us to do. He died on the cross so that we might be victorious, that we might get the fire of love that overcomes sin and death through Him.

JustWhoIAm · Jun 15, 2016

Unless you are being used for your burgers. Then you should take steps to make sure they cannot have the burgers by bending the rules a bit.

I'm alluding to something.

Motives...

JustWhoIAm · Jun 15, 2016

Sometimes it is lawful to do something that would be technically unlawful otherwise because it serves the purpose of a greater good.

That is scriptural.

JennaLeanne · Jun 15, 2016

Hi Peter.. Good rainy British morning to you

How you explain what you see makes perfect sense to me.. In my mind because that's how I used to live..

I believed that by repenting and confessing daily I was forgiven, (my understanding of repentance was that I had to say "sorry"! )

Now I have the understanding that it means ("To think differently, change your mind)

Mark 1:5 says "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel"

Let's break that down a little.. We know the Jesus is the fulfilment of the law. The ultimate sacrifice Hebrews 10:18.
1 John 2:2 (please take time to read these)

So if Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice for our sins then does that not mean that he has already paid it all ? If he has already paid it all then how can we possibly offer anything but faith in that ?

Do you believe you are justified by faith ? Or by daily rituals? Galatians 5:4 says: If you seek to be justified and declared righteous and to be given a right standing with God through the law, you are brought to nothing and so separated (severed) from Christ. You have fallen away from grace (from God's gracious favour and unmerited blessing)

Also in Galatians 2:21
Therefore, I do not treat God's gracious gift as something of minor importance and defeat it's very purpose; I do not set aside and invalidate and frustrate and nullify the grace (unmerited favour) of God. For if justification (righteousness, acquittal from guilt) comes through observing the ritual law, then Christ the Messiah died groundless and to no purpose and in vain. (His death was then wholly superfluous)

Those verses alone tell us that there is nothing we can possibly do to justify ourselves. That justification is a gift. (Please think about that for a minute.. it took me 7 years to get it haha!)

You see a lot of these arguements and discussions on here a really just pointless when we see Jesus as the precious gift that he is.. To all of us that he loves equally.. Why do we need to argue over a gift that is equal to all ??

Above you said that we need to work with God and grow in love, if we are to "work" with God then does that not nullify the gift, It's like saying I give half of Jesus to u.. Do all u can then to get the other half right. It doesn't make sense does it?

To all of us who believe in Christ who are truly in him then this is the good news of the Gospel.. Our sins he will remember no more.. This is the power of the grace that empowers us to not sin. Do u see what I mean ?

I pray u will take time out to read over what I have said.. Not from your own mind but by the spirit.

I don't write this things from the attitude that I'm right rather this is what the word says..

I'm looking forward to hearing back from you, Sincerely.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 15, 2016

UnderGrace said:

I do understand what you are saying for sure. I agree that there is the finished work of the cross that He was speaking about it and yes he did pay the penalty for our sin and bought us back. It does not end there, His righteousness is a completed work in us Paul tells us this many times. To grow in that knowledge of Jesus means understanding and believing in that completed work. He was indeed the propitiation for our sin, but in Him we are justified, sanctified and made righteous

Yet you can't do the righteousness of GOD. Amazing. Total inability.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 15, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Still waiting for proof of anyone who says they can not do the works of God.

Your strawman (lie) is getting Old HeRose. It is like beating the dead horse everyone keeps mentioning,, I think you have said this lie so many times to yourself, You forgot it was a lie and is actually truth, Thats how we harden our hearts to the truth..

PeterJens · Jun 15, 2016

JennaLeanne said:

Amen. Everything is in Christ. The gospel for me has become simpler over time, it is just the order and emotions involved.

Each persons walk is unique. The Lord helps each through each stage and all things work together for good for those who are called according to His purpose.

Our goal is to walk as Jesus walked. When sin gets in the way we bring it to Jesus, repent, confess and walk in forgiveness.

Yes if we are justifying ourselves we have lost the plot, but if we realise a glorious child of God is being transformed into a righteous, holy, pure eternal being to dwell with the Most High we get the picture.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 15, 2016

Stunnedbygrace said:

I like to look at it in the OT symbol of the Ark.

Inside the ark, were the ten commandments, Of which I am guilty of breaking, The rod that budded, which proves mankind's rebellion against his word, and his way, And manna, Which proves mans complaining against Gods provision, saying it is not enough..

So inside are all the things which are against us, Contrary to us, and proves our guilt.. In a court of law. they would be the evidence of the state that proves our guilt

On the day of atonement, The blood of the lamb that was slain was poured on top of the "mercy seat" so when the cherub look down, they do not see all the things which prove man is guilty, and would condemn him, They see the blood of the lamb.

Thats why the OT is so important to read and study (I hear people today say it is not important, thats crazy!) Here is a perfect symbol of redemption.

Inside I am guilty, filthy as can be, As black as black can get, All the charges against me are laid out. But when God looks at me, He does not see the proof which would condemn me, all he can see is his sons blood. The lamb of God, who removes the sin of the world.

Thats redemption, or justification.

In col Paul makes that statement that God has wiped out all the things which are against us, Contrary to us, and have taken them out of the way, Having nailed them to the cross.. Here is the mercy seat in action.. God took them out of the way by covering them with his son's blood.

Sanctification is the ongoing process of making our lives more like Jesus, and less like the people we were (past tense) on the inside.. which is an ongoing process as you said,, and will be fulfilled in heaven, which is called glorification (where our sanctification matches our justification, ie we become sinless)

PeterJens · Jun 15, 2016

It sounds like the argument has moved on, and everyone now accepts we can walk in purity, righteousness and holiness as Gods redeemed people. So Amen, hallelujah.

Ofcourse there are people who deny this, extremely strongly but unless they represent themselves here, some members will claim this is a lie, when it is actually 100% true.

But then those who claim something that is obviously true is a lie, are actually just lying themselves. Poetic that. It is also why saying people are lying tends to be counter productive. You show something is not true by declaring something that proves the opposite.

BenFTW Re: The Holy Spirit convicts of sin #308

"As has been said in the past, if anyone here has found out the secret to living sinless in the here and now, ever single Christian here is all ears. They want to be set free from sin, they want to walk in complete victory. To live a year without sin, or even a month (some would argue a day) would be amazing. If someone here is walking sinless, every moment of every single day in their own actions, thoughts, and deeds, they have a moral obligation to share their secret. Unfortunately, those that think they do are walking in denial."

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 15, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

FWIW I'm not going to play your perpetual accuser game where proof is provided, then you ignore it and continue with your accusations. I provided proof at the beginning of this thread.

JennaLeanne · Jun 15, 2016

PeterJens said:

Yes Amen.. Each of our walk is unique but none more important than the other.. what is done for one is done for all.. My life is proof that I cannot achieve a thing. To even get out of bed was the biggest effort for me.. I can honestly say I have done nothing but recieve his grace

Our goal to walk as Jesus walks is only achieved by recognising it's him through us .. again because of his grace.. I know the word grace is hated very much that's because of the lack of understanding what it really means.. Not a licence to sin but the power not too.

We CANNOT even 1% walk the way Jesus did without him giving his life for us..

Therefore grace has to be everything. Dya understand what I mean ?

Great response.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 15, 2016

Stunnedbygrace said:

Then would we not be lost?

How can we pay for our own sin? when the penalty of sin is death?

Is that not like saying the you were caught speeding, And the penalty was 150 dollars.. But you say I do not have to pay it,, I will just not do it again and be good..

The debt is still outstanding, you will have to pay it, or when the judge comes to collect, You will pay it.

PeterJens · Jun 15, 2016

Total inability position

The best summary of a belief in total inability is the one below as stated by EG

will be fulfilled in heaven, which is called glorification (where our sanctification matches our justification, ie we become sinless)

It would be simpler to just say, we can never walk truly righteously until we reach heaven.
My question as a response is why? What makes this so impossible other than ones own emotional history of failure?

When Paul describes him and his fellow believers "living pure, holy, blameless examples" it sounds like it is possible.

The problem appears to be emotional. Love is the conquerer, the overcomer, it accepts you, the true essence of who we are as acceptable and loves us. It is in knowing this acceptance that we can learn to walk in love. The only reason we stumble is because of our history, our experiences, our PTSD, our relationships. Our problem is not letting them go, not confessing our failures and sin, seeing how we are loved now, and when caught in lostness and sin we knew no other way.

I talk as someone who has grown through this and come out the other side. It matters zero to me what people have done to me or the hurt I have felt, I just want to love them and love Jesus. This is entering the Kingdom, walking in the light, letting purity and holiness reign.

Great glory to God that in Him we are transformed and made into overcomers, no longer bound by the ways of this world but part of the Holy Kingdom of God. Dare I utter these words? Yes because though unworthy Christ has done this work within me. Amen. And he calls you to, to walk and follow Him in love and obedience, not because you must but because you want to because you trust Him and His word.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 15, 2016

JennaLeanne said:

Yes Amen.. Each of our walk is unique but none more important than the other.. what is done for one is done for all.. My life is proof that I cannot achieve a thing. To even get out of bed was the biggest effort for me.. I can honestly say I have done nothing but recieve his grace

Our goal to walk as Jesus walks is only achieved by recognising it's him through us .. again because of his grace.. I know the word grace is hated very much that's because of the lack of understanding what it really means.. Not a licence to sin but the power not too.

We CANNOT even 1% walk the way Jesus did without him giving his life for us..

Please explain what him through us means.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 15, 2016

PeterJens said:

IMO following doctrine that has total inability as a foundational concept. Self-defeating. Baked-in unbelief.

Total inability - original sin - inherited from adam

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