Dispensationalism

[Johnlove]

These are powerful verses, and I agree with your position. Aspiration to them is my first question, not achievement because most of church history has been how not arrival. So ok it is good to have a message, but can you deliver a solution or realisation?

My job is to give a word, and leave. I am not a teacher. Nor am I an evangelist;

People know what needs to be done. Only people believe, or have made themselves believe, they can have their cake and eat it too.

People can read and see what and how God wants us to live. People also know that if they truly ask Jesus for his Holy Spirit Jesus would give his Spirit to them. But. in most cases people want what the world promises them.

I believe in a very short time people who have been sitting on the fence, between doing what the world wants, and what God wants are going to make a very hard choice. Hard choice, because they do not have the Holy Spirit to give them the grace to make the tough choice for God.

 

[Bookends]

Some take the Temple sacrifices as commemorative rather than atoning...a possibility.

Then you can't take the passages in a wooden literal fashion, as many dispensationalist claim they do all the time (I'm not saying you do, just what I hear from dispensationalist generally).

 

[PeterJens]

My job is to give a word, and leave. I am not a teacher. Nor am I an evangelist;

People know what needs to be done. Only people believe, or have made themselves believe, they can have their cake and eat it too.

People can read and see what and how God wants us to live. People also know that if they truly ask Jesus for his Holy Spirit Jesus would give his Spirit to them. But. in most cases people want what the world promises them.

I believe in a very short time people who have been sitting on the fence, between doing what the world wants, and what God wants are going to make a very hard choice. Hard choice, because they do not have the Holy Spirit to give them the grace to make the tough choice for God.

Sounds like other than a verse quoting machine you have nothing else to offer.

That is not exactly a ministry or inspiration. It is the context and how people are responding to the verses, and openning doors to victor and change that matters. Or else you are just an observer, a critic matching hope and delivery and seeing a problem. Every christian every day faces these questions. And often it is this struggle that causes change and starting to see what matters and what does not.

So when you have personally achieved what you share, maybe then people will listen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This statement and looking at the responses EG is a dispensationalist.

He can say I do not know what he believes. When talking about dispensationalism and that is your position why not talk about it?

It is like saying I am an evangelical but I am going to keep it to myself. Or I am a christian talking on a christian forum about beliefs but I will happily tear apart others beliefs and put them right but not declare my own. Sounds pretty hypocritical.

Don't attempt to think you know what ALL dispensationalists believe. We have already proven in this very thread that people have a misunderstanding of what most dispensationalists believe. The biggest example being different gospels for different dispensations.

No dispensationalists who I know believes that, And most people I know are dispensationalists.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then you can't take the passages in a wooden literal fashion, as many dispensationalist claim they do all the time (I'm not saying you do, just what I hear from dispensationalist generally).

why not?

Does it matter "why" they do it? or "that" they do it.

They are still literally doing sacrifice, so it would still be a literal interpretation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Johnlove please open another thread and do not destroy this one..

 

[TMS]

The core of dispensationalism is twofold.

1. A literal approach to Scripture.
2. A distinction between Israel and the Church.

I hold to both.

Be careful these two core beliefs affect so much of scripture. Many other beliefs need to be changed to fit this belief and this is a man made theory?
Firstly the scripture is deep and to confine it to a literal approach only is taking away it's meaning and depth in so many ways. Their are literal scriptures but some have meaning for the time written, for Christs coming and for the end times all in the same scriptures/story, don't limit the meaning and depth of the scriptures. Not everything in revelation is literal.

Secondly the church and Israel
By faith we can be part of the same family.
Dispensationalists say that the church was started on the day of Pentecost. But the Bible says that ISRAEL WAS THE CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS. In speaking of Moses, Stephen said this in Acts 8:37--
This is he, that was in the CHURCH in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.
Israel is the Root of the New Testament Church
The scriptures clearly teach that the church did not start on the day of Pentecost. It already existed. In Abraham, God called out a people and a church for his name. Israel is the root of the New Testament Church. The mystery hidden from the foundation of the world was that the Gentile should be graffed into that root. The Gentiles are not a separate tree.
Those Jews who abide in unbelief are broken off from their own tree through their unbelief. There is not special provision for them in the "tribulation period" (incidentally, the Bible does not teach that Christians will escape the great tribulation. It teaches the opposite and says for us to pray that our flight not be in the winter or on the sabbath day). All they have to do is believe in Jesus Christ and they will be immediately graffed back into their own tree. In speaking of Israel, Paul says this is Romans 11--
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, AND WITH THEM partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. [We are all in ONE tree.]
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature INTO a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? [There is only ONE tree. We get in by faith in the blood of Jesus.]
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be COME IN.
This is a plain, untwisted reading of the holy scriptures.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Be careful these two core beliefs affect so much of scripture. Many other beliefs need to be changed to fit this belief and this is a man made theory?
Firstly the scripture is deep and to confine it to a literal approach only is taking away it's meaning and depth in so many ways. Their are literal scriptures but some have meaning for the time written, for Christs coming and for the end times all in the same scriptures/story, don't limit the meaning and depth of the scriptures. Not everything in revelation is literal.

Secondly the church and Israel
By faith we can be part of the same family.
Dispensationalists say that the church was started on the day of Pentecost. But the Bible says that ISRAEL WAS THE CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS. In speaking of Moses, Stephen said this in Acts 8:37--
This is he, that was in the CHURCH in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.
Israel is the Root of the New Testament Church
The scriptures clearly teach that the church did not start on the day of Pentecost. It already existed. In Abraham, God called out a people and a church for his name. Israel is the root of the New Testament Church. The mystery hidden from the foundation of the world was that the Gentile should be graffed into that root. The Gentiles are not a separate tree.
Those Jews who abide in unbelief are broken off from their own tree through their unbelief. There is not special provision for them in the "tribulation period" (incidentally, the Bible does not teach that Christians will escape the great tribulation. It teaches the opposite and says for us to pray that our flight not be in the winter or on the sabbath day). All they have to do is believe in Jesus Christ and they will be immediately graffed back into their own tree. In speaking of Israel, Paul says this is Romans 11--
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, AND WITH THEM partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. [We are all in ONE tree.]
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature INTO a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? [There is only ONE tree. We get in by faith in the blood of Jesus.]
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be COME IN.
This is a plain, untwisted reading of the holy scriptures.

1. God said what is the sign of a true prophet? What he says comes true (deut 18: 21-22) so literal interpretaion MUST according to God himself be used to interpret scripture.
2. Your trying to make it a salvation issue, Mainstream dispensationalism teaches jew and gentile are one in christ as far as salvation goes. So the point you made was based on a false idea of what dispensationalists believe.

Thats why I tell people talk to one before you make judgment, ask them questions if you get you view of what we believe from an outside source, you probably will not get the right picture.

 

[PeterJens]

Don't attempt to think you know what ALL dispensationalists believe. We have already proven in this very thread that people have a misunderstanding of what most dispensationalists believe. The biggest example being different gospels for different dispensations.
No dispensationalists who I know believes that, And most people I know are dispensationalists.

Most people I know are just believers and not dispensationalists at all. If anything when dispensational ideas are expressed they have great doubts simply because salvation is singular, and God never changes.

I know very little about the different groups or even dispensationalism, so am open to anyone to share their views and why.
Mohammed was a dispensationalist. Some Jewish Christian groups who believe Israel has a separate dispensation, are.

Hyper-grace doctrine, when talking about Jesus talking only to the Jews is a dispensational argument.

But if everything is only discover and disclose to get discussion it will have to wait till I have some time to dig.
Hyper-grace did not fair so well, "mysticism" by another name, so what about dispensationalism?

Latter rain theology, heavenly portals etc, sounds wakey, but a lot of the charismatic movement, health wealth are 100% into this. Astral travel to the 3rd heaven, talks with Jesus, Moses and Abraham crowd. When did you last go to heaven to get an update? Listened to one guy who in front of a congregation said a "prophet" who had died was talking to him and saying how blessed they were all going to be in the Lord. Sounded like a seance rather than a church meeting. But hey this mystical reality is so much better than love and learning how to walk as Jesus walked.

 

[John146]

One of the false charges is different gospel. Here is a quote

Dispensationalist William MacDonald (known especially for his one excellent one volume commentary, Believers Bible Commentary), in his book Here's the Difference, wrote the following: "While there are differences among the various ages, there is one thing that never changes, and that is the gospel. Salvation always has been, is now, and always will be by faith in the Lord. And the basis of salvation for every age is the finished work of Christ on Calvary's cross. People in the Old Testament were saved by believing whatever revelation the Lord gave them...We must guard against any idea that people in the Dispensation of Law were saved by keeping the Law" (page 98).Yet in spite of these clarifications, many who are opposed to dispensationalism continue to insist that dispensationalists teach different ways of salvation. Have they not read what leading dispensationalists have said on this issue? Salvation has always been by grace through faith based on the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I think the better question is, how is the blood of Christ applied to those living before the cross, after the cross, and after the rapture of the church. The blood of Christ is the only way to eternal life with the Lord. Those before the cross had to believe and obey whatever instructions God had given them in their time of human history. Their obedience kept them "safe" from God's wrath upon death but could not lead them into heaven until after Christ's resurrection.

Dispensationalists like myself take the Bible literally as possible and understand that God has given His word progressively through time and not all at once. What God gave to Adam is not the same as Noah. God gave certain things to Abraham that He did not give to Noah. God gave direction to Moses that He did not give to Abraham, etc...

 

[TMS]

[FONT=&quot]The nature of deception is that you really believe what is falseand that you disbelieve what is true. The only way that someone can come out ofdeception is if they really love the truth. If someone truly loves thescriptures, he will change his beliefs to conform to the scriptures when hesees that he is wrong. Unfortunately, most people feel that they have too muchto lose by changing their false belief system. Because many love the praise of menmore than the praise of God, they will stay in deception rather lose theirposition or standing in their community. They cannot even afford to think thattheir beliefs may be wrong. You have to really love the truth to run this race.[/FONT]

 

[TMS]

Scholars and ministers spread dispensationalism across America in the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century. John Nelson Darby, “the father of dispensationalism,” was a founder of the Plymouth Brethren movement. His most influential contribution was his promotion of dispensationalism and the secret rapture.
Darby, born in London, made seven trips to North America between 1862 and 1877, throughout and after the Civil War. Many saw his message of Christ’s return as hope in a dark world. James Inglis published Darby’s ideas in his journal Waymarks in the Wilderness. Brothers Paul and Timothy Loizeaux, part of the Plymouth Brethren movement in the United States, also helped to distribute Darby’s interpretations of Scripture.
Darby greatly influenced a Presbyterian minister named Dr. James H. Brookes, who developed the Niagara Bible Conference that met every summer from 1875 to 1897. The Bible studies held there were devoured by many eager young students—one of which was Cyrus Ingerson Scofield. Even to this day, Scofield is famous for his Scofield Reference Bible, which has dispensationalist footnotes.

I could write more but you get the point and there is nothing here to prove it is wrong but I just want you to see it’s origins and how it grew. If it is truth than praise God for these men and it’s growth but if it’s error than it needs to be exposed.
"Truth mixed with error is equivalent to all error, except that it is more innocent looking and, therefore, more dangerous."

 

[TMS]

Dispensationalism is the background for the blockbuster Left Behind series. It proposes that the rapture of the Church will occur at the secret coming of Christ, before the Antichrist rules the earth for a seven-year tribulation period.
The Ryrie Study Bible says that the seven-year tribulation period "is the 70[SUP]th[/SUP] week of Daniel and is therefore of seven-years’ duration" (Daniel 9:27).[SUP]i [/SUP]
This statement illogically separates the 70[SUP]th[/SUP] week from the preceding 69 weeks. The seven years are placed over 2000 years into the future, to the time of Antichrist. A prophecy referring to Christ is twisted to refer to the Antichrist instead.
By stating that the Antichrist is an individual, dispensationalism ignores the Bible. The Antichrist is more than an individual. 1 John 2:18 says, “even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.” These “antichrists” came out of the Church as apostate believers.

 

[TMS]

[FONT=&quot]Jesustold Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world...” (John 18:36). Paul emphasized that both Jew and Gentiles becomechildren of God when he said, “There is neither Jew nor Greek...for ye are allone in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, andheirs according to the promise” (Galatians3:28-29).
[/FONT]Dispensationalists do not believe in Spiritual Israel, which is the Church, but believe that the promises of Scripture are for literal Israel only. They thus separate the Church from Israel, but the Bible makes no such distinction:
Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16 NIV).

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[Ahwatukee]

But the Bible says thatISRAEL WAS THE CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS.

Hello TMS,

Israel was never the church. Your claim would go against the following:

"on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades not will prevail against it."

The word "οἰκοδομέω" translated "I will build" is in the future tense, demonstrating that the Ekklesia/church was something that was yet to be built and in fact is still in the process of being built. The church is made up of both Jew and Gentile, so that there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but all belong to the body of Christ. The nation Israel is a separate program, with prophesies and promises yet to be fulfilled.

As I stated in another post, scripture states that the new Jerusalem will have 12 gates made from a single Pearl with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel written on them. Likewise, the wall has twelve foundations with the names of the twelve apostles written on the foundations, representing both Israel and the church. The twenty four elders are also representing the twelve tribes of Israel and twelve representing the church. Where the church is gathered at the appearing of the Lord, Israel will be here in fulfillment of that last seven years, where that antichrist will make his seven year covenant and Israel will build her temple, with the antichrist setting up that abomination in the holy place.

Israel and the church are two separate programs.

 

[TMS]

Dispensationalists say that the rapture of God's people will come first, followed by the destruction of the Antichrist at the Second Coming. During this supposed seven-year period, the Jewish people will go through the tribulation and will come to accept Christ.
However, the truth is that typology in the Bible always points to something greater. The symbolic lamb points to Christ—the latter being so much greater than the former. Literal Babylon points to end-time Babylon, comprising all the forces that reject God. Literal Jerusalem is a type of end-time spiritual Jerusalem, comprising the redeemed of all the ages. Despite this, dispensationalists await a literal reconstruction of Babylon and Israel, which would be the same as awaiting the return of a literal lamb.
According to the dispensationalist view, the end-time tribulation is for literal Israel only. This is not a Biblical teaching. The trials and tribulations are rather designed to purge and cleanse God’s faithful people around the world (1 Thes 3:3).

And one of the elders answered, saying to me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said to him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:13-14).

Contrary to dispensational doctrines, God's people—those who have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb—have to go through the tribulation. “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works” (Matthew 16:27).


Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (2 Thes 1:6-8).
According to these texts, relief for the accepters of God and recompense for the rejecters of God take place at the same time—at the return of Christ.
This is what Jesus told His disciples about the end- time tribulation:

The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matthew 13:41-43 NKJV).

Just like the wheat and the tares Jesus describes in Matthew 13, everyone will stay together until the return of Christ. When Old Testament Israel was delivered from the bondage of Egypt, the plagues did not fall when the Israelites were already gone. They were present and witnessed the events, being subjected to the first three plagues themselves (Exodus 8-12).

God divinely protected the Israelites from the effects of the last seven plagues in Egypt, just as He will divinely protect His people from the effects of the last seven plagues at the end of time (Revelation 3:10-13). God's people are urged to hold on until He comes. They will not be taken to heaven before these events.
The glory of Christ's Second Coming leaves no hint of secrecy. Everyone will be judged at the same time. The return of Christ is the blessed hope of the people of God: Jesus is to be revealed (1 Corinthians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:7,13; 4:13).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yet once again. TMS is allowed to post his rant about what he THINKSs dispensationsals believe. But everyone must test what is said. Don't take what an appoint says as gospel ask a dispensationsals himself you will we they do not hold to many of the things he spoke of, and the ones they do, they do not do it on blind faith, but the word of God

 

[TMS]

Hello TMS,

Israel was never the church. Your claim would go against the following:

"on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades not will prevail against it."

The word "οἰκοδομέω" translated "I will build" is in the future tense, demonstrating that the Ekklesia/church was something that was yet to be built and in fact is still in the process of being built. The church is made up of both Jew and Gentile, so that there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but all belong to the body of Christ. The nation Israel is a separate program, with prophesies and promises yet to be fulfilled.

As I stated in another post, scripture states that the new Jerusalem will have 12 gates made from a single Pearl with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel written on them. Likewise, the wall has twelve foundations with the names of the twelve apostles written on the foundations, representing both Israel and the church. The twenty four elders are also representing the twelve tribes of Israel and twelve representing the church. Where the church is gathered at the appearing of the Lord, Israel will be here in fulfillment of that last seven years, where that antichrist will make his seven year covenant and Israel will build her temple, with the antichrist setting up that abomination in the holy place.

Israel and the church are two separate programs.

could the new Jeruselem be the one that Jesus is preparing in heaven? If you understand the way that city is going to be build i don't think it is humanly possible.
I'm not sure how Israel can be complete today because from what i understand some of the tribes are completely dead.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
This is after the recreation and after the thousand years. And its not build by Jews.


We will see when Jesus comes, "what is Truth", I believe there will be no Earthly kingdom until after recreation.
Joh 18:33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
Joh 18:34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
Joh 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Joh 18:38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat_7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat_8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.





Do you think the kingdom of Heaven will be corrupted by sin?

You take a few scriptures and twist the rest into it.
no one has proven that the 70th week in Dan 9 should be separated 2000 years from the other 69 weeks, thats twisting the scripture.

 

[TMS]

Yet once again. TMS is allowed to post his rant about what he THINKSs dispensationsals believe. But everyone must test what is said. Don't take what an appoint says as gospel ask a dispensationsals himself you will we they do not hold to many of the things he spoke of, and the ones they do, they do not do it on blind faith, but the word of God

What did i say incorrectly?
please show me?
i better go to bed it's past 11pm here
i'll get back to it tommorrow

 

[PeterJens]

A small point. If someone is a dispensationalist and disagrees with a point, then it is fair to share what that is.
If nothing is said, then the presented version is the best on offer. In an open forum, we are just sharing our understanding warts and all.

What is discouraging is those who just say do not share, just when you know you go it 100% correct. If you followed this kind of approach no one would ever evangelise or share their faith. So I suggest notes which just undermine an individual without facts, are just that, undermining comments and of little value.