Mysticism & righteousness

[garee]

the Lord can not communicate with us? so what was all that Jesus was talking about, personal relationship with the Father and all that? if its all in our head we might as well bow down to a tree stump in the woods.

His living abiding word is eternal, as it even today teaches us we abide in Him..Do you need more than that which he has revealed?

It does not come from our head they are his living thoughts that cannot return void from the purpose by which he sends them.

 

[jaybird88]

His living abiding word is eternal, as it even today teaches us we abide in Him..Do you need more than that which he has revealed?

im assuming your referring to the bible. is this what the disciples had that followed Jesus, words on paper? or did they each have a unique experience with Jesus. if your faith is in the words on paper without knowing what those words represent then you are doing exactly what Jesus taught not to do.

It does not come from our head they are his living thoughts that cannot return void from the purpose by which he sends them.

not what you said before

 

[PeterJens]

A broad approach

There is a side of searching out God, contemplating the richness of who he is, is solitude and your inner soul which I can relate to.

Out of this kind of experience people tend to get a bigger view of God and a sense of what is significant.

The modern mysticism as practised among some groups is a instant zapping, a non interlection or soul involved experience, it is go along to the meeting to have something happen. I suppose the problem is this is a kind of majic mushroom experience, not something derived from contemplation or quieting the soul.

I was thinking on the lines of a magic formula that just happens, upon which people say I have had it, but you have not.

An example of this is being slain in the spirit. Now my experiences with Christ have been around an overwhelming sense of His love and acceptance. Some have talked about just blacking out and hitting the floor and nothing else.

So you cannot say people are talking the same thing at all, though the outside show seems effective. In some circles unless people are slain the preacher is not speaking from the Lord.

My take or point was more this idea of a mysterious other which changes theology. It is here I have problems. Theology changes because there is a proper relisation of something not just to fit in. For instance preaching to the gentiles because of a vision. But talking to the dead which is banned is ok, because it is a prophet not it is just banned.

 

[miknik5]

A broad approach

There is a side of searching out God, contemplating the richness of who he is, is solitude and your inner soul which I can relate to.

Out of this kind of experience people tend to get a bigger view of God and a sense of what is significant.

The modern mysticism as practised among some groups is a instant zapping, a non interlection or soul involved experience, it is go along to the meeting to have something happen. I suppose the problem is this is a kind of majic mushroom experience, not something derived from contemplation or quieting the soul.

I was thinking on the lines of a magic formula that just happens, upon which people say I have had it, but you have not.

An example of this is being slain in the spirit. Now my experiences with Christ have been around an overwhelming sense of His love and acceptance. Some have talked about just blacking out and hitting the floor and nothing else.

So you cannot say people are talking the same thing at all, though the outside show seems effective. In some circles unless people are slain the preacher is not speaking from the Lord.

My take or point was more this idea of a mysterious other which changes theology. It is here I have problems. Theology changes because there is a proper relisation of something not just to fit in. For instance preaching to the gentiles because of a vision. But talking to the dead which is banned is ok, because it is a prophet not it is just banned.

There are some people who seek a lower carnal sensual feeling and they base this sensual experience as proof and validation of their "faith" in God...

 

[garee]

m assuming your referring to the bible. is this what the disciples had that followed Jesus, words on paper? or did they each have a unique experience with Jesus.

if your faith is in the words on paper without knowing what those words represent then you are doing exactly what Jesus taught not to do.

Hi jaybird88

The experience was written on paper, as a law of faith.( Christ’s) not that of our owns selves.

It was Christ’s interpretation of the events, not the private interpretation as personal commentaries of sinful men. Just as with Moses who later wrote of the events and experiences of men before any word was written. One third of human history had passed by before God infallibly declared his will written in the book of His perfect law, the Bible..

The words I am thinking of are spiritual in we compare the spiritual meaning to the spiritual not the literal fleshly meaning to the literal. God is Spirit we worship him in respect to His spiritual words .
Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God as our promised teacher comforter and guide as he teaches us the meaning as it is written.

He warns us of those antichrists (men) who would seduce a person to believe we need an man as a antichrist (Satan the usurper of the anointing Holy Spirit of God ) to teach us. As it, the scriptures the living abiding word of God which cannot return void of the purpose he sends it teaches us we abide in Him the head.

It does not come from our head as our thoughts as if they were his, they are his living thoughts that cannot return void from the purpose by which he sends them. We are not to add to them. He is no longer bringing any new revelations for over two thousand years now. .. The closing commandment is to not add to His book of prophecy. It remains sealed till the end of time.

 

[jaybird88]

Hi jaybird88

The experience was written on paper, as a law of faith.( Christ’s) not that of our owns selves.

It was Christ’s interpretation of the events, not the private interpretation as personal commentaries of sinful men. Just as with Moses who later wrote of the events and experiences of men before any word was written. One third of human history had passed by before God infallibly declared his will written in the book of His perfect law, the Bible..

The words I am thinking of are spiritual in we compare the spiritual meaning to the spiritual not the literal fleshly meaning to the literal. God is Spirit we worship him in respect to His spiritual words .
Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God as our promised teacher comforter and guide as he teaches us the meaning as it is written.

He warns us of those antichrists (men) who would seduce a person to believe we need an man as a antichrist (Satan the usurper of the anointing Holy Spirit of God ) to teach us. As it, the scriptures the living abiding word of God which cannot return void of the purpose he sends it teaches us we abide in Him the head.

It does not come from our head as our thoughts as if they were his, they are his living thoughts that cannot return void from the purpose by which he sends them. We are not to add to them. He is no longer bringing any new revelations for over two thousand years now. .. The closing commandment is to not add to His book of prophecy. It remains sealed till the end of time.

i dont think your understanding what i am saying.

did the Apostles follow Jesus because a book told them to? or because of their personal experience with Jesus?

mark 7 6-7

[SUP]6 [/SUP]He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[SUP][b]

[/SUP]do you understand what Jesus is teaching here?
how can ones heart be close to the Lord when they can not get past the words on paper?

 

[Nikki84]

Thanks , I can share my opinion.

I can give you an example of mysticism as to how it works to deceive those who have another form of worship in respect to that seen coming from a mystic called Faustina... She claims to have received a new revelation that they must call a private revelation which is simply a private interpretation coming from her own fleshly mind. as to things she did not see according to the that kind of doctrine. She was simply using her own fleshly conscience as a source of faith.

Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he “hath not seen”, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

In the end of the matter she claimed that Christ who has no form appeared in front of her for a portrait or image used to commune with him. and by merely looking at it a person is promised they will not perish.

This is mimicking God who used the serpent on a brass pole which became a object of worship rather than a reminder that we walk by faith and not by sight.


It simply a way of promoting mysticism to give the illusion God is still bringing new prophecy like that of another mystic called Padre Pio, and the bleeding of his hand because of the acid he used and the perfume from women who the confessed there sin to Mr Pio , it was used to cover the stench of burning flesh. its the same kind of perfume that some say today the smell as the sweet aroma by which they can know Padre Pio is present among them. It deceived many and is still doing its work as a disembodied worker with a familiar spirit that the Catholic s call patron saints . Mysticism provides a whole “legion” of mystics called patron saints (3500 and rising) that are worshiped by the pew Catholics. The non-venerable ones.

Your opinions of Faustina and Pio are interesting. Maybe you should try a Catholic source and do away with the tales you have read. Padre Pio poured acid on his hands? And your source for this is?

 

[ladylynn]

Then what are dictionaries? Words have specific meaning applied to them. When everyone gets to make up their own meanings to words how can communication be clear? That's just suiting things to fit you, instead of learning how to correctly and effectively communicate in ways others can understand.

Good heavens Ugly!! Yes, of course this is true for those who use words (properly). We have dictionaries because there IS a meaning already given to certain words. But people (like Peter here for instance) are not free to take a certain word like "BLUE" and change it to mean the word "RED".

As odd as it is, apparently your post was VERY needed Ugly. It would seem Peter doesn't follow standard procedure when posting on these forums. He can't change dictionary meanings of words and he can't re-evaluate someone's posts and re-tell what that person means and who that person is and what color socks they are wearing when they posted. It is just not done nor is it acceptable. The "Dear Reader" posts are especially wacky.

 

[ladylynn]

Dear reader,

Grace7 is very scared. He believes showing the difference between His faith and ours will doom
people to hell forever.

He claims God alone chooses and teaches, yet he behaves like everything depends upon his
arguments and teaching.

I on the other hand believe we have choices to make and preaching repent and walk in
righteousness is the gospel. Without it there is no hope.

My point is made the choice is yours. I am here just to shine a light so you are no
longer innocent.

Hello Peter., You are so busy shining your flash light on other people that you have totally been walking in the dark yourself. First take care of the beam in your own eye and then come back and take out the splinter from someone else's.

 

[PeterJens]

God is a God of behaviour

Why is I am so unusual? He chose a whole nation through which to express His truth.
Was His truth mystical union? No.
Was His truth showing how people could approach Him? Yes.
Through behaviour, repentance, sacrifice.

List to the prophets, behaviour is wrong, repent, get your behaviour right.

Jesus , get love in your heart, behaviour will follow. I will dwell with you if you behaviour is right.

Now the mystics emphasis a mystery union which drives it.

Think, 4,000 years of behaviour and now the mystical ideas are the emphasis.

God has not changed. Behaviour is the cornerstone of a relationship with God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Now the mystics emphasis a mystery union which drives it.

This is the essence of mystic/gnostic beliefs. The spiritual nature (new birth) is what saves rather than the working of GOD's righteousness.

 

[Grace777x70]

Believing in what Jesus has done for us in His finished work is the cornerstone for believers. His life inside of us changes us as He bears His fruit in our lives.

The works-based mindset which is Old Covenant is - "You do in order to get". = behavior focused

New Covenant mindset = "You believe in what Jesus has done " . then His life inside of us because we are a new creation manifests as we get our minds renewed to the truth of the exchanged life in Christ. = Belief in Christ centered.

The law is on Moses side. Grace and truth are on Jesus' side. Mix these covenants up and we have a spiritual mess and this is where we have to create humanistic philosophies to live by instead of the true Christian life which is believing in Christ alone for all things. This is a mystery to the natural mind of man and it exposes what our true faith is in.

Until we have a revelation of the new birth in Christ we will continually turn to our humanistic thoughts and ways to justify ourselves. This is self-righteousness at it's finest - hidden within "Christian-ese" words to try to legitimize this human self-effort.

Preach and teach Christ and our outward behavior will come into line with our true selves in Christ - children of our Father. To the natural mind - this is mystic and of course Paul did say that spiritual things are not grasped with the natural mind and are in face - foolishness to it.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Grace777x70]

This is the essence of mystic/gnostic beliefs. The spiritual nature (new birth) is what saves rather than the working of GOD's righteousness.

I have never heard this theory before. I know you have told me that you do not believe we are born again until we have new bodies so this may be the reason the new creation in Christ is a mystery but I assure you that is NOT the gospel of Christ.

I have always heard that it was the blood of Jesus that redeemed us from our sin. That it was belief in Christ that made us new creations in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness. The true Christian will never be more righteous then what they are now because we are one with Christ.

If you are not in union with Christ - you have no part in Him. Understanding that we are born-again and that we have a new heart is basic knowledge needed to even to begin to grow in Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Romans 8:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.


What saves us is His life because He is inside of us! Paul talks about being in Christ in some form 140x times in his epistles.

Romans 5:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

 

[garee]

Hi Jaybird88

I understood you. I said: “The experience was written on paper, as a law of faith”, meaning the experience was beforehand. Sorry if it was not clear.

That kind of prophecy came after the experiences not beforehand which would be another kind of prophecy as a declaration from God, neither was loosened from men. .


What Christ said to them and they said to Christ is written by the finger of God in His book. It’s how we know what they experienced. It has been what I have been trying to say.

mark 7 6-7

[SUP]6 [/SUP]He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[SUP][b][/SUP]

do you understand what Jesus is teaching here?
how can ones heart be close to the Lord when they can not get past the words on paper?

The teaching of human rules would come from philosophy books containing theories also called private interpretations.
The Bible His interpretation to us that he calls the book of law, is not a book of philosophical theories as a human book loosened from earth. But is a Divine book loosened from heaven.

 

[garee]

Your opinions of Faustina and Pio are interesting. Maybe you should try a Catholic source and do away with the tales you have read. Padre Pio poured acid on his hands? And your source for this is?

Faustian is still doing her work of appearing as a disembodied worker with a familiar spirit called a patron saint every time a person looks at the image with different colored rays that look like are coming out of His chest. and because they looked their sins are washed away. Along with Padre Pio and the other 3500 and rising workers with familiar spirits to continue giving the idea that God is bringing new prophecy through them, as gnostics .(extra wisdom not after the the wisdo0m of God) But we do not know Christ after necromancy. Why would I go to them and asks them if it is already being performed. I did spend years discussing those issues with them if that means anything..

Padre Pio was removed from his confessional office because of the acid controversy by one Pope and reinstated by the next who thought having hands bleed as some sort of sign that means something or other was marketable to the pew Catholics .

The various idols that go along with him even though he is not here physically continue on. He is still reported as having the abillty to be in two places(bilocation) at the same time and His scent is marketed as mystical encounters with Padre Pio. I have yet to see one warning from any Pope to stop buying the things that make mysticism work for them.

They need to believe God is still bringing new revelations as prophecy that they call private revelation and we call gnosticism ...Without it their foundation crumbles.


Mystical encounters with Padre Pio | The Irish Catholic

 

[Ariel82]

This is the essence of mystic/gnostic beliefs. The spiritual nature (new birth) is what saves rather than the working of GOD's righteousness.

The key to mystic/Gnostic beliefs is the belief that their actions influence their righteousness through spiritual means.

 

[Ariel82]

If you are going to try and label people please make up your own,terms instead of hijacking ones with means that don't even touch what you are trying to twist them to mean.

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/gnostics.html

An article on what the rest of the world refers to as Gnostics.

 

[Ariel82]

"
Gnosticism is heavily influenced by the Hellenistic understanding that the material world is evil and the spirit is good. Gnostics believed that the ultimate supreme God did not create the world, but rather a lesser god, a ‘demiurge,’ created the world poorly and imperfectly. The result was a material world filled with decay, weakness, and death. But Gnostics believed that human beings, though locked in this material body, have a spark of the higher spiritual reality within. This spark, if fanned into a flame, can liberate us and help us evolve back into spiritual perfection. This happens through a process of self-discovery, in which you discover your divine identity, you separate from the world by ‘stripping off ’ the consciousness of the physical body, and you finally experience the kingdom of light, peace, and life."
From the article...

 

[Ariel82]

Jews had a thoroughly different world-view than that of the Greeks or the gnostics. They believed firmly that this material world was made good (see Genesis1) and that despite sin God was going to renew it and resurrect our bodies (Daniel 12:1-2.) Jews had no hope (or concept) of disembodied souls living apart from the body.

Also from the article..

 

[Ariel82]

To attempt to paint members of this site as Gnostic when they clearly not is false, unedifying and reflects more upon the people attempting to paint such a false and negative picture than upon the people they are attempting to label and belittle.

The key to Gnostic beliefs is that the material world is evil which directly contradicts that God made the world Good and is able to restore this world to His standard of good.

Also Gnostics point to self and not to God or,Jesus on the cross. Therefore to allude that to be born again or experience the new birth where people's whole heart is changed is somehow Gnostic or magical is false. It is a spiritual experience and we have to continually renew our minds and learn by walking with,the holy spirit, but to mix in false accusations distract people from that walk and makes them stop to stand and defend their place in the Lord.

All can continue standing and defending, as for me I am going to walk with Christ and follow Him.

I will see everyone in another thread.