Mysticism & righteousness
- Thread starter PeterJens
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Against Heresies
2. Animal men, again, are instructed in animal things; such men, namely, as are established by their works, and by a mere faith, while they have not perfect knowledge. We of the Church, [the gnostic heretics] say, are these persons. Wherefore also they maintain that good works are necessary to us, for that otherwise it is impossible we should be saved. But as to themselves, [the gnostic heretics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt [from sin], or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions [i.e., conduct] in which they may be involved.
2. Animal men, again, are instructed in animal things; such men, namely, as are established by their works, and by a mere faith, while they have not perfect knowledge. We of the Church, [the gnostic heretics] say, are these persons. Wherefore also they maintain that good works are necessary to us, for that otherwise it is impossible we should be saved. But as to themselves, [the gnostic heretics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt [from sin], or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions [i.e., conduct] in which they may be involved.
Can we step back so that you can at least let us know what the "dispute" was?
Further, I guess it also depends on what one's faith is in...
A mystic,a Christian, whatever outward name we have given ourselves (remember, GOD sees inwardly what no man can see) ...if they are both on ONE FOUNDATION, (which IS the TRUTH of THE GOSPEL of GOD/THE TRUTH OF CHRIST AND THE MESSAGE OF THE CROSS)...are brothers...provided they remain on THAT FOUNDATION and do not go out from THE FAITH directed in and on CHRIST alone.
Do you agree?
Therefore, wouldn't it depend on what all began in?
for as the WORD of TRUTH states: this anointing is real...if what you began in remains in you, you too will remain in BOTH the FATHER and the SON. (1John 2)
The problem arises when one "goes out" and adds to THE FOUNDATION what does not belong...
And one who has had a mystical encounter, in the sense, similar to Paul's "hit over the head" felt conversion, he will either remain in THE TRUTH...or "go out" from THE TRUTH. GOD is able to test and prove our faith so when one enters a dark night, (that is all the sensual lower carnal feelings are silenced so the one who had that initial felt conversion, who feels very profoundly CHRIST'S presence, is taken through a dark night (which is because one doesn't feel HIM as profoundly as they had from the beginning) he feels like he is left alone and he is set down to walk (unaided so it seems) by faith...and there will be a difference between those who seek the BELOVED for the BELOVED, from those who will seek a replacement, a substitute for that lost sensual experience.
You said our behavior is the foundation.
I don't agree.
I do agree that our behavior will be the evidence of our faith...and if one's LOVE is directed in and on the person of JESUS CHRIST, it will be made manifest and will be the difference between those who REMAIN IN HIM...from those who "go out" from HIM...
Further, I guess it also depends on what one's faith is in...
A mystic,a Christian, whatever outward name we have given ourselves (remember, GOD sees inwardly what no man can see) ...if they are both on ONE FOUNDATION, (which IS the TRUTH of THE GOSPEL of GOD/THE TRUTH OF CHRIST AND THE MESSAGE OF THE CROSS)...are brothers...provided they remain on THAT FOUNDATION and do not go out from THE FAITH directed in and on CHRIST alone.
Do you agree?
Therefore, wouldn't it depend on what all began in?
for as the WORD of TRUTH states: this anointing is real...if what you began in remains in you, you too will remain in BOTH the FATHER and the SON. (1John 2)
The problem arises when one "goes out" and adds to THE FOUNDATION what does not belong...
And one who has had a mystical encounter, in the sense, similar to Paul's "hit over the head" felt conversion, he will either remain in THE TRUTH...or "go out" from THE TRUTH. GOD is able to test and prove our faith so when one enters a dark night, (that is all the sensual lower carnal feelings are silenced so the one who had that initial felt conversion, who feels very profoundly CHRIST'S presence, is taken through a dark night (which is because one doesn't feel HIM as profoundly as they had from the beginning) he feels like he is left alone and he is set down to walk (unaided so it seems) by faith...and there will be a difference between those who seek the BELOVED for the BELOVED, from those who will seek a replacement, a substitute for that lost sensual experience.
You said our behavior is the foundation.
I don't agree.
I do agree that our behavior will be the evidence of our faith...and if one's LOVE is directed in and on the person of JESUS CHRIST, it will be made manifest and will be the difference between those who REMAIN IN HIM...from those who "go out" from HIM...
Last edited:
Hi Ariel83, My two cents...
Yes he made the world good by saying this is good or that is good. He defines the word good by that which he our faithful Creator creates. This was before he corrupted it within the first 6 days when he was working to create and it started aging in a process of decay and total destruction, death .The whole creation suffers as in birth pains awaiting the new incorruptible heavens and earth .
The word gnotic simply with no other meaning added means knowledge. It does not distinguish from the knowledge of God as the wisdom of God set apart from knowledge of the the wisdom of this world after the god of this world.
When it is applied to the scriptures it simply means without adding the wisdom of this world to the knowledge of God, as if it was all one thing, a Divine revelation from God. We are not to add to His word.
God corrupted this world and will make a new one as incorruptible . it would seem the first will go up in smoke. For this corruptible must put on the incorruptible. I am not sure how that would be restoring the Old. It would seem to me the new would replace the old. Just like our hearts/consciences that are desperately wicked and beyond repair he give us a new heart and not a conditioned one.
Yes he made the world good by saying this is good or that is good. He defines the word good by that which he our faithful Creator creates. This was before he corrupted it within the first 6 days when he was working to create and it started aging in a process of decay and total destruction, death .The whole creation suffers as in birth pains awaiting the new incorruptible heavens and earth .
The word gnotic simply with no other meaning added means knowledge. It does not distinguish from the knowledge of God as the wisdom of God set apart from knowledge of the the wisdom of this world after the god of this world.
When it is applied to the scriptures it simply means without adding the wisdom of this world to the knowledge of God, as if it was all one thing, a Divine revelation from God. We are not to add to His word.
God corrupted this world and will make a new one as incorruptible . it would seem the first will go up in smoke. For this corruptible must put on the incorruptible. I am not sure how that would be restoring the Old. It would seem to me the new would replace the old. Just like our hearts/consciences that are desperately wicked and beyond repair he give us a new heart and not a conditioned one.
Last edited:
Peter Jens,
This ANOINTING is real.
The "WIND" does go where it listeth.
There are many who have been born again of HIS LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT who have felt, just as profoundly as Paul had felt, that conversion in their body.
The difference is that during the dark night of the soul, there will be a weeding out those who LOVE HIM from those who simply loved an "experience"...
But to be honest sir...anyone who has been called of GOD, who has heard HIS VOICE and THE TRUTH of THE GOSPEL of THE SON, I can't believe that when they are set down to walk by faith (and no longer by that lower/immature "spoonfed" faith based on how one feels)...that they would "go out"...
But the WORD of TRUTH does say that there are those who "go out" and those who do, it will be made manifest that they were never with those who REMAINED IN HIM and did not "go out" from HIM...
This ANOINTING is real.
The "WIND" does go where it listeth.
There are many who have been born again of HIS LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT who have felt, just as profoundly as Paul had felt, that conversion in their body.
The difference is that during the dark night of the soul, there will be a weeding out those who LOVE HIM from those who simply loved an "experience"...
But to be honest sir...anyone who has been called of GOD, who has heard HIS VOICE and THE TRUTH of THE GOSPEL of THE SON, I can't believe that when they are set down to walk by faith (and no longer by that lower/immature "spoonfed" faith based on how one feels)...that they would "go out"...
But the WORD of TRUTH does say that there are those who "go out" and those who do, it will be made manifest that they were never with those who REMAINED IN HIM and did not "go out" from HIM...
The difference is in THE LOVE (or lack of love) for the TRUTH of THE GOSPEL.
If one does not begin in CHRIST...one can amount to himself as much "gnostic wisdom" as he/she wishes. But if he did not begin IN CHRIST, then he is not in CHRIST, and therefore remains outside THE DOOR.
This is not for us to decide...but it is for the one who amasses to himself supposed wisdom but goes beyond the TRUTH of THE ONE LIVING GOD. He should contemplate what his "faith" truly is in...
For many will profess to have god(s) but will deny THE SON...and those who deny THE SON, deny THE FATHER who sent HIM...and in a sense, call THE ONE TRUE GOD, a liar...they do not believe GOD'S TESTIMONY which HE has given of HIS SON.
GOD, in HIS WISDOM, by sending HIS SON into the world, shut the mouths of every lying whispering spirit who whispers and mutters everything and anything but CHRIST and HIM CRUCIFIED for the salvation of men...
And there is a spiritual realm...and men can delve into a spiritual realm...but if they deny THE SON, then they deny THE FATHER, and do not have GOD...
They have entertained a spirit, that is for sure...but it is NOT GOD'S SPIRIT...
If one does not begin in CHRIST...one can amount to himself as much "gnostic wisdom" as he/she wishes. But if he did not begin IN CHRIST, then he is not in CHRIST, and therefore remains outside THE DOOR.
This is not for us to decide...but it is for the one who amasses to himself supposed wisdom but goes beyond the TRUTH of THE ONE LIVING GOD. He should contemplate what his "faith" truly is in...
For many will profess to have god(s) but will deny THE SON...and those who deny THE SON, deny THE FATHER who sent HIM...and in a sense, call THE ONE TRUE GOD, a liar...they do not believe GOD'S TESTIMONY which HE has given of HIS SON.
GOD, in HIS WISDOM, by sending HIS SON into the world, shut the mouths of every lying whispering spirit who whispers and mutters everything and anything but CHRIST and HIM CRUCIFIED for the salvation of men...
And there is a spiritual realm...and men can delve into a spiritual realm...but if they deny THE SON, then they deny THE FATHER, and do not have GOD...
They have entertained a spirit, that is for sure...but it is NOT GOD'S SPIRIT...
Last edited:
Further, PeterJens...
Anyone declared "righteous" is because of JESUS' BLOOD.
Therefore, again, it depends on what one has begun in.
And the WORD of TRUTH (for GOD'S written word does not contradict HIS VOICE/SPIRIT (and HIS VOICE/SPIRIT does not contradict HIS written word)says for us to keep ever before us what we began in...if what we began in remains in us, we too will remain in BOTH...THE FATHER and THE SON....and this is what HE promised us...EVEN ETERNAL LIFE.
Therefore, it matters what a man "began in"...
And if he did not begin in what he should have begun in...then he does not belong to CHRIST...and is still outside THE DOOR.
Anyone declared "righteous" is because of JESUS' BLOOD.
Therefore, again, it depends on what one has begun in.
And the WORD of TRUTH (for GOD'S written word does not contradict HIS VOICE/SPIRIT (and HIS VOICE/SPIRIT does not contradict HIS written word)says for us to keep ever before us what we began in...if what we began in remains in us, we too will remain in BOTH...THE FATHER and THE SON....and this is what HE promised us...EVEN ETERNAL LIFE.
Therefore, it matters what a man "began in"...
And if he did not begin in what he should have begun in...then he does not belong to CHRIST...and is still outside THE DOOR.
Please read 1John 2.
You might change your understanding of what you have identified as a "mystic" in your Opening Paragraph.
The sensual feeling is left behind when one who begins in CHRIST has to walk sir...
And that, by faith and no longer by "sight" (that is, based on any lower carnal senses but by a mature faith directed properly and rightly on CHRIST JESUS alone)
And the "Righteous" shall live by that faith...
From faith ---------------------------------->to faith
From first -----------------------------------.to last
For what we began in (faith in CHRIST) is what we will end in...
You might change your understanding of what you have identified as a "mystic" in your Opening Paragraph.
The sensual feeling is left behind when one who begins in CHRIST has to walk sir...
And that, by faith and no longer by "sight" (that is, based on any lower carnal senses but by a mature faith directed properly and rightly on CHRIST JESUS alone)
And the "Righteous" shall live by that faith...
From faith ---------------------------------->to faith
From first -----------------------------------.to last
For what we began in (faith in CHRIST) is what we will end in...
After reading a few lines of the article, it is apparent that gnostic ideas are 100% similar to the mystic hyper-grace born again views. You have a new perfect heart. Spiritual growth is in emphasising your new identity, into which you grow, leaving your body or this world behind.
The christian view is transformation from being a sinner into a saint through obedience and dealing with sin in ones life, by dedication, patience, endurance, perserverance, faith, hope, love etc. It costs, is hard. It is a choice.
I suspect peoples exposure to mystic preachers leads them to ignore the true gospel and jump on mystic experiences.
When people say they have gone to the third heaven, spoken to Abraham, Moses etc. that is more important than sharing and encouraging each other in good works and shared issues and victories.
The christian view is transformation from being a sinner into a saint through obedience and dealing with sin in ones life, by dedication, patience, endurance, perserverance, faith, hope, love etc. It costs, is hard. It is a choice.
I suspect peoples exposure to mystic preachers leads them to ignore the true gospel and jump on mystic experiences.
When people say they have gone to the third heaven, spoken to Abraham, Moses etc. that is more important than sharing and encouraging each other in good works and shared issues and victories.
I would summarise my Christian experience like this.
God is saying I am like, this, this is my nature, this is who I am. My people are like me. Would you like to become like us, is this your heart? The lesson is learning to walk and become like Him, actually as a fully conscious loving functioning being independent yet united with God. So no mystical union or single consciousness but real spiritual oneness.
This is how Jesus can be one with the Father yet 100% separate. It is also why we can have fellowship with God as Jesus did, yet be human. God does not possess us through the Holy Spirit, but dwells with us.
New birth is about a new start. It can only happen by the Holy Spirits work in a heart, born of God, but it is not a mystical eternal perfect heart planted in a mortal body from heaven. That is mysticism, another version of the gnostic ideas, slightly changed. So though not exactly the same the rules, the impact, the theology is the same. Which is why also it is so destructive to the true gospel message of sinners redeemed by Christ to walk freely in righteousness.
God is saying I am like, this, this is my nature, this is who I am. My people are like me. Would you like to become like us, is this your heart? The lesson is learning to walk and become like Him, actually as a fully conscious loving functioning being independent yet united with God. So no mystical union or single consciousness but real spiritual oneness.
This is how Jesus can be one with the Father yet 100% separate. It is also why we can have fellowship with God as Jesus did, yet be human. God does not possess us through the Holy Spirit, but dwells with us.
New birth is about a new start. It can only happen by the Holy Spirits work in a heart, born of God, but it is not a mystical eternal perfect heart planted in a mortal body from heaven. That is mysticism, another version of the gnostic ideas, slightly changed. So though not exactly the same the rules, the impact, the theology is the same. Which is why also it is so destructive to the true gospel message of sinners redeemed by Christ to walk freely in righteousness.
Last edited by a moderator:
I do not see anything you have said that would be unbiblical . Jesus is the reason by the redemptive work on the cross. No man comes to the Father accept by Jesus. did Not God say a new heart I will place in you not of one of stone but flesh ? That he would remove the one of stone?
The resurrection Power of God through Christ Jesus has made us alive again; because we were already dead to sin before Christ saved us correct? was that death a real one and is this life we have now in Christ also a real one?
The resurrection Power of God through Christ Jesus has made us alive again; because we were already dead to sin before Christ saved us correct? was that death a real one and is this life we have now in Christ also a real one?