CONDEMNATION IS THE ROOT CAUSE

[PeterJens]

Even if you do not think that John was addressing Gnosticism, you cannot avoid that sin confession for forgiveness is in direct conflict with the Gospel message of salvation. If Jesus died to pay sin's penalty and bring reconciliation for mankind to God, then sin has been dealt with and any sin confession that is for the sake of forgiveness is trampling underfoot the Son of God.

Jesus did not die in vain nor did He fail to accomplish that which the Father sent Him to do. If a person believes that sin confession is a necessity in order to receive forgiveness of sins (once a believer), then they have not fully understood that which Jesus accomplished on behalf of mankind at the cross. That being reconciliation with God, sin's penalty being paid, and imputed righteousness. The veil is torn, that which separated man from God has been dealt with. Sin has been paid. Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God, and He is our High Priest, ever living to intercede on our behalf (and therefore is able to save us completely).

Sin confession for the sake of forgiveness would make Jesus irrelevant as High Priest and Mediator. He is representing you, sit down and let Him do His job. You don't need to make a case to God of how sorry you are, and repent in order to receive forgiveness. You are already forgiven in Jesus Christ, because Jesus died for you. Yes, you should deal with the sin in your life, but as far as forgiveness goes, you are justified before God. This is elementary teaching and yet so important and vital to our Christian walk. It is faith in Christ that saves, and disbelief that condemns. Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world, He paid for all sin. Now the world has a choice to believe and be saved, or not believe and stay condemned.

If one must confess their sins in order to receive forgiveness then Jesus did not accomplish that which His word declares He has. Read all of Hebrews and see that sin, all sin, has been dealt with. Taken away and Jesus sits victorious at the Father's right hand. One sacrifice for all sin for all time. His blood shed, for the remission of your sins. VVe don't need Him to get back up on that cross every time we sin, His blood isn't common like that of bulls and goats. One sacrifice. For all sin. For all time. VVe, reconciled to God. Forevermore.

Ben I agree with your assumptions based on the mystical view of man and the role of the law and the new heart.

You may not have realised is the believer is confessing sin for their own benefit. It is always hard to admit what you have done, that it is wrong and that you are commited to not repeat it. One role of emotions is to tell you where you really are, and not live in an imaginary world that everything is ok.

In the mystic world, sin is irrelevant, because only recognising the mystic presence in your heart matters, defeat is inevitable.

I our world, recognising real sin, a real problem, its origins and getting yourself right with God is transformation and sanctification. You become someone different. It is a form of behaviour modification, showing the consequences of sin, showing yourself what it leads to and dedicating yourself to walking differently. You would be amazed how behaviour is often triggered by positive reinforcement which if removed can stop it in its tracks.

But as one of your previous threads said, sinning less, so it is a waste of time, because you do not believe in victory over sin at all. A different faith.

 

[JennaLeanne]

Sooo..... you haven't noticed that when Grace777x70 writes an Op about anything in the Bible he's quoting Joseph Prince?
He is the one shoving Joseph Prince down our throats..... Tell Grace777x70 to take HIS focus off of him.

Isn't it true..... because JP preaches NEW heretical doctrine is the REAL reason Grace777x70 pushes his teachings? You see, most folks know that these other televangelists are preaching trash & wrote them off, but not Prince. Yet, he runs in their circles, preaches in their conferences, & fully agrees with their false teachings. Even though these others teach the same things, Grace777x70, will only quote Prince 'cuz he's the newest heretic.

Regardless of what Grace or prince say take yourselves to the bible and study it word for word.. Then u will no longer feel the need to finger point individuals.. You haven't taught a thing rather make others not believe the only one who is trying teach on here (Grace!) He hasn't once said anything like you crazy legalistic bunch your unholy and don't have a clue.. He has responded in Love with evidence to back up what he is trying to teach... Go and study for yourselves what he is saying and then if u find error bring it back...

 

[Grace777x70]

10:26-27. The kjv translation here, "if we sin willfully," is superior to niv's if we deliberately keep on sinning, as the words "keep on" overplay the Greek tense. As the context shows (cf. v. 23), the author was concerned here, as throughout the epistle, with the danger of defection from the faith. Most sin is "deliberate," but the writer was here influenced by the Old Testament's teaching about sins of presumption (cf. Num. 15:29-31) which lay outside the sacrificial provisions of the Law. Apostasy from the faith would be such a "willful" act and for those who commit it no sacrifice for sins is left (cf. Heb. 10:18). If the efficacious sacrifice of Christ should be renounced, there remained no other available sacrifice which could shield an apostate from God's judgment by raging fire. A Christian who abandons "the confidence [he] had at first" (3:14) puts himself on the side of God's enemies and, as the writer had already said, is in effect "crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to public disgrace" (6:6). Such reprehensible conduct can scarcely be worthy of anything but God's flaming indignation and retribution. This, however, as stated earlier (cf. comments on 6:8), is not a reference to hell (cf. comments on 10:29).
10:28-29. Under the Old Covenant, if an Israelite spurned the Mosaic Law and at least two or three witnesses verified his actions, he was put to death. This being true, the author then argued from the lesser to the greater. If defiance of an inferior covenant could bring such retribution, what about defiance of the New Covenant which, as he had made clear, is far superior? The answer can only be that the punishment would be substantially greater in such a case.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

teaching doctrine directly related to salvation is in defiance of the New Covenant.

In helps to read Hebrews in context.....the only sin talked about throughout Hebrews is the sin of unbelief - read Hebrews chapter 3-4. Every person that sins does it willfully.

Keep rejecting Jesus as your Savior and relying on temple sacrifices for sins is insulting the Spirit of grace and there remains no more sacrifice for sins. This is what the writer was saying to the Hebrews that he was writing to.

In this religion you are encouraging people to believe - if someone sinned tonight then went to sleep and died...they would die in their sin and there would be no sacrifice of that sin.

I'm content to leave it in the hands of he Holy Spirit as He will teach those in Christ about Jesus perfect work. When people hear truth - their spirit will bear witness to it. It is called "good news" or the "gospel" for a reason!

Jesus' blood speaks of better things built upon better promises.

 

[PeterJens]

It appears to me that there are people here who say they are christians but appear to miss a basic teaching of God to man.
When you sin, you need to repent, make restitution and offer a sacrifice to get forgiven and be made clean or holy.

So steeped in this idea the pharisees talked about washing your hands before eating, cleaning the cups etc. to avoid defilement. They all accepted you were made holy by going through the processes and ceremonies stipulated by God.

Jesus became a single but eternal sacrifice that meant each sin can be dealt with through the same process but without the temple and the animals.

The short circuit is you are now holy because of Jesus but actually fake holy because you are not forgiven because you do not acknowledge the sin or do anything about it. Then Jesus as the sacrifice does not actually make you holy and clean, it is just imputed onto your sinful life. This is the ultimate hypocracy, a mystic we are heavenly beings in a sinful body, and that is what God actually wanted.

And it all starts because the law and temple failed, and no one was ever acceptable to God or holy. This is not the picture of Moses talking with God, while the rebels are burnt to death by Gods fire from the sanctuary. This is a true illustration of who was pure and holy and who was not.

Now if these people cannot listen to God, why should they listen to us?

 

[BenFTW]

Ben I agree with your assumptions based on the mystical view of man and the role of the law and the new heart.

You may not have realised is the believer is confessing sin for their own benefit. It is always hard to admit what you have done, that it is wrong and that you are commited to not repeat it. One role of emotions is to tell you where you really are, and not live in an imaginary world that everything is ok.

In the mystic world, sin is irrelevant, because only recognising the mystic presence in your heart matters, defeat is inevitable.

I our world, recognising real sin, a real problem, its origins and getting yourself right with God is transformation and sanctification. You become someone different. It is a form of behaviour modification, showing the consequences of sin, showing yourself what it leads to and dedicating yourself to walking differently. You would be amazed how behaviour is often triggered by positive reinforcement which if removed can stop it in its tracks.

But as one of your previous threads said, sinning less, so it is a waste of time, because you do not believe in victory over sin at all. A different faith.

I'll take what little victories I can. You may be sinless, and walk uprightly, but if I can sin less and less, glory to God. You may have met the standard of perfection, but I am progressing as God sanctifies me. You would belittle a person's walk because they have yet to attain sinlessness, but don't forget that sanctification is a process that takes time. Good for you, honestly, if you walk blameless in your conduct. I walk blameless in Christ. He gets the glory, not I.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You may not have realised is the believer is confessing sin for their own benefit. It is always hard to admit what you have done, that it is wrong and that you are commited to not repeat it. One role of emotions is to tell you where you really are, and not live in an imaginary world that everything is ok.

Sin is spiritual fornication, ie., becoming one spirit with sin. Becoming one spirit with truth again requires acknowledging the truth that we have sinned. Not acknowledging the truth keeps us in bondage to sin.

If we walk in the truth that we are blind and naked apart from GOD, then the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin because we believe that our spirit is pure and cannot sin, and only the flesh sins which is inconsequential because it is dead, then we deceive ourselves and the truth isn't in us and can't cleanse us.

When we sin, if we acknowledge that we have sinned, then GOD is faithful and just to his covenant to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. But if we don't acknowledge that we've sinned because we believe that all past, present and future sin has been forgiven already, then we make GOD out to be a liar and his word which witnesses against our sin is not in us.

 

[Stephen63]

In helps to read Hebrews in context.....the only sin talked about throughout Hebrews is the sin of unbelief - read Hebrews chapter 3-4. Every person that sins does it willfully.

Keep rejecting Jesus as your Savior and relying on temple sacrifices for sins is insulting the Spirit of grace and there remains no more sacrifice for sins. This is what the writer was saying to the Hebrews that he was writing to.

In this religion you are encouraging people to believe - if someone sinned tonight then went to sleep and died...they would die in their sin and there would be no sacrifice of that sin.

I'm content to leave it in the hands of he Holy Spirit as He will teach those in Christ about Jesus perfect work. When people hear truth - their spirit will bear witness to it. It is called "good news" or the "gospel" for a reason!

Jesus' blood speaks of better things built upon better promises.

AAAAAAAgain, Hebrews is written to the church, not unbelievers! And, BTW, are you saying that YOU know more than the theologians that write these commentaries? HOW MANY commentaries will you treat with contempt?

You think it's all about the teachings..... it's also a lot about you attitude..... holding to the teachings of a single man over legitimate commentaries..... picking a no-name off the internet & putting him against reputable commentaries. It says a lot about someone when they do things like that.

 

[PeterJens]

Do Hyper-grace people walk in unbelief, constantly ie sin?

They claim God has forgiven all their sin, before they commit it, so it does not have to be faced, because they are already holy and pure, and are not falling from grace, so do not need to be restored. But if in reality they are in real unrepentant sin, then it is true these are not holy or pure, and each sin just confirms there hardness of heart and are condemning themselves to be further and further from Christs love and reality and closer to total lostness.

One way you know how bad things are, is when sin does not bring a response to your spirit. How can you be pure and Holy walking in the Spirit if these things mean nothing to you?

It is like a child who takes a cookie when they are not allowed. They feel real bad. It tells them the relationship with their parents matter, but also the desire to eat the cookie. But if they take the cookie and feel nothing, the relationship no longer exists and they do not care, they are just going through the motions. So where are you dear reader. I know real sin seriously bothers me, and I come before the Lord to repent and work it through. If I do not it destroys who I am.

 

[Cee]

There you go again, Twisting the scriptures.
John wasn't writing to agnostics, as nowhere does the Bible say one has to confess sins to get saved.
John was writing to the Church.
The Bible wasn't written in chapter and verse, the translators put them in for clarification, So, John chapters 1 to 5, is all one letter to one group of people

If you believe in your heart and CONFESS Him as Lord you shall BE saved. Written by Paul in Romans.

So actually yes it does say that exactly elsewhere.

Not are saved. Or keep your salvation. Or what ever else you're teaching here.

John wrote so they wouldn't sin. Why? Because the HOPE of glory purifies as we are pure. But before he could write that they shouldn't sin because they were born of God, He had to first deal with those who said we don't have sin. I.E. Need Christ.

Which Paul confirms in Romans 6. I am free from the law of sin. It has no power over me.

And from God's view. You're in Christ. And He said He is no longer counting your trespasses and will remember your sins no more.

Oh and if you think the way you are judging people's heart and their intentions is Christlike, I wonder about you.

 

[PeterJens]

I'll take what little victories I can. You may be sinless, and walk uprightly, but if I can sin less and less, glory to God. You may have met the standard of perfection, but I am progressing as God sanctifies me. You would belittle a person's walk because they have yet to attain sinlessness, but don't forget that sanctification is a process that takes time. Good for you, honestly, if you walk blameless in your conduct. I walk blameless in Christ. He gets the glory, not I.

You cannot attain sinlessness, because by the meaning of the word "sinlessness" it is saying you will not sin in the future.
No one can know this, only God. What you can know is you are pure and holy, blameless today. And in this place you can rest. But from your language you do not believe in a practical way you can know being pure and holy for any period.

Paul said this

Do everything without grumbling or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky as you hold firmly to the word of life.
Phil 2:14-16

"children of God without fault" - As a lot of discussion has said, hyper legalism creates this impossible idea that you can never gain what Paul is saying. Pauls objectives are not anywhere near your concepts. He was talking simple following in faith and showing love and care one to another. They had only been christains for a few years, nothing like the periods most of the people on cc have been. Yet Paul talks about their spirituality way beyond what these super-spiritual believers seem to says is even possible. A massive disconnect.

 

[BenFTW]

Do Hyper-grace people walk in unbelief, constantly ie sin?

They claim God has forgiven all their sin, before they commit it, so it does not have to be faced, because they are already holy and pure, and are not falling from grace, so do not need to be restored. But if in reality they are in real unrepentant sin, then it is true these are not holy or pure, and each sin just confirms there hardness of heart and are condemning themselves to be further and further from Christs love and reality and closer to total lostness.

One way you know how bad things are, is when sin does not bring a response to your spirit. How can you be pure and Holy walking in the Spirit if these things mean nothing to you?

It is like a child who takes a cookie when they are not allowed. They feel real bad. It tells them the relationship with their parents matter, but also the desire to eat the cookie. But if they take the cookie and feel nothing, the relationship no longer exists and they do not care, they are just going through the motions. So where are you dear reader. I know real sin seriously bothers me, and I come before the Lord to repent and work it through. If I do not it destroys who I am.

Time and time again people have told you from the grace side of things that people do need to address sin in their life. It is not to be ignored. Yet, you continue to bear false witness and slander people by falsely defining their beliefs and the consequential results of their beliefs. You have not taken their beliefs to their logical end, but are seeing blindly. God works in paradoxes at times, and liberty does not lead to licentiousness. It sets us free from sin's dominion, as we are under grace.

I don't know how many times and different ways it has been explained to you, but you continue to falsely define people's beliefs (even after you have been corrected). On and on you go with straw men, and then you take it down to no one's benefit. You cry and complain that people call you a liar to the "readers" and yet what else may you be called or your actions defined as? Ignorance? Malicious? Are we to assume you are innocently acting in these ways, acting sincerely wrong? If that is the case, here is to the thousandth time you've been addressed and corrected. VVill it stick this time, or will you continue to slander people?

 

[Cee]

You resign people to a life of sin because it is impossible to attain. And then you lay shame on them when they struggle. But in these forums you judge people's hearts. You attack. You slander. And you gossip. I see it so often. Yet those who have an understanding of Scripture day after day speak to you in love and explain Scripture to you. Which one is showing more fruit and has something to teach? Those who reflect Christ or those who accuse?

 

[Grace777x70]

AAAAAAAgain, Hebrews is written to the church, not unbelievers! And, BTW, are you saying that YOU know more than the theologians that write these commentaries? HOW MANY commentaries will you treat with contempt?

You think it's all about the teachings..... it's also a lot about you attitude..... holding to the teachings of a single man over legitimate commentaries..... picking a no-name off the internet & putting him against reputable commentaries. It says a lot about someone when they do things like that.

Hebrews was written to...are you ready for this bit of news?...to the Hebrews! Shocking isn't it?...such a strange name.

To the Jewish people and it would have been read in places where there were believers and unbelievers. There are believers and unbelievers in just about every congregation.

The writer of Hebrews ( There's that name again - Hebrews ) was addressing everything to do with temple sacrifices...comparing Jesus with the old covenant....showing how Jesus priesthood was so much better then Aaron's....how the blood of Jesus made believer's sanctified completely in Him.....etc.


There are lot's of commentaries and teachers that say believers in Christ are safe in Him and say that about Hebrews 10. I know this goes against your religious beliefs and it angers you but you'll just have to let it live with it.

 

[Cee]

So why did Paul say he had not yet attained what Christ laid ahold of for him? But he pressed on. Just as Ben stated.

You cannot attain sinlessness, because by the meaning of the word "sinlessness" it is saying you will not sin in the future.
No one can know this, only God. What you can know is you are pure and holy, blameless today. And in this place you can rest. But from your language you do not believe in a practical way you can know being pure and holy for any period.

Paul said this

Do everything without grumbling or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky as you hold firmly to the word of life.
Phil 2:14-16

"children of God without fault" - As a lot of discussion has said, hyper legalism creates this impossible idea that you can never gain what Paul is saying. Pauls objectives are not anywhere near your concepts. He was talking simple following in faith and showing love and care one to another. They had only been christains for a few years, nothing like the periods most of the people on cc have been. Yet Paul talks about their spirituality way beyond what these super-spiritual believers seem to says is even possible. A massive disconnect.

 

[Grace777x70]

Beware of the "straw-man!"

A straw-man approach, or argument, is a tactic often described as a logical fallacy. It is the practice of presenting a simplified and often inaccurate summary of an opponent's views, then attacking that summary and concluding that you have thereby won the argument.

The problem with it is that the presenter usually does not accurately represent the opponent's views, so what he is attacking is actually a "straw-man", not the actual thing itself.

In the so called hyper-grace arena.....here is an example of the above "straw-man" technique in action.

...people against the grace of our Lord Jesus talked about here will say.."..the hyper-gracers say you don't have to repent and you can do whatever sin you want!" ( this is their straw-man )

Everyone knows that Christians need to change their mind and turn to Jesus....everyone knows that sinning is wrong and will destroy us....which is why Jesus came to save us from sin. ( This is their attack on the straw-man )

Thus the "straw-man" is killed off and so their original premise shows the validity of their argument.

This is not even remotely the truth. In real life no believers in grace says we don't change our way of thinking to line up with God's nor is it ok to sin all you want.

It doesn't matter how many times we say that grace is not a licence to sin. It is what some people hear.

What is happening is that people are "hearing" something else other then what is actually being said by believers in the grace of Jesus as outlined in the word of God.

Another thing is that it's the definitions of the words that throws people off because a word meaning in their mind is tied to their religious beliefs of the meaning of a word.

 

[Cee]

Good post.

If Hebrews said, those who willfully sin can't be forgiven, then we'd all be in trouble.

Book of John tells us that the Holy Spirit has come to convict of sin. Because of unbelief in Christ.

Corinthians tells us those who are in Him, have become the righteousness of God because Christ became sin for them. So do we suddenly have unrighteousness and we are no longer the righteousness of God unless we confess? I wonder if Scripture actually means we are the righteousness of God? I wonder if sanctification is us actually realizing who we are in Christ?

I wonder why Paul got so angry, that he said about Judaizers that he wished they would castrate themselves?
I wonder why Paul said that the spiritual man can be judged by no one?
I wonder why Paul said he was free from sin, but then later one chapter later said he was wretched and could not do what he wanted?

C.

Hebrews was written to...are you ready for this bit of news?...to the Hebrews! Shocking isn't it?...such a strange name.

To the Jewish people and it would have been read in places where there were believers and unbelievers. There are believers and unbelievers in just about every congregation.

The writer of Hebrews ( There's that name again - Hebrews ) was addressing everything to do with temple sacrifices...comparing Jesus with the old covenant....showing how Jesus priesthood was so much better then Aaron's....how the blood of Jesus made believer's sanctified completely in Him.....etc.


There are lot's of commentaries and teachers that say believers in Christ are safe in Him and say that about Hebrews 10. I know this goes against your religious beliefs and it angers you but you'll just have to let it live with it.

 

[Cee]

Here is exactly what this topic boils down to...

REPENTANCE: Turning towards God always turns us away from sin. But turning away from sin doesn't always turn us toward God. Repentance isn't knowing how bad I am, but knowing how good God is.

C.

 

[JennaLeanne]

You cannot attain sinlessness, because by the meaning of the word "sinlessness" it is saying you will not sin in the future.
No one can know this, only God. What you can know is you are pure and holy, blameless today. And in this place you can rest. But from your language you do not believe in a practical way you can know being pure and holy for any period.

Paul said this

Do everything without grumbling or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky as you hold firmly to the word of life.
Phil 2:14-16

"children of God without fault" - As a lot of discussion has said, hyper legalism creates this impossible idea that you can never gain what Paul is saying. Pauls objectives are not anywhere near your concepts. He was talking simple following in faith and showing love and care one to another. They had only been christains for a few years, nothing like the periods most of the people on cc have been. Yet Paul talks about their spirituality way beyond what these super-spiritual believers seem to says is even possible. A massive disconnect.

Peter my brother, Your doctrine just doesn't weigh up with any scripture.. "Do.. and then you will become blameless and pure" is what you have just quoted.. and then you said "what you can know is that you are pure and holy and blameless today" I'm really finding it very difficult to understand what you are trying to say..

So are you saying that today you have done everything you can to be pure and holy ? What about tomorrow when you wake up in the morning ? Do u start off your day a sinner and then do everything you can to then go to bed the next night knowing you are pure and holy? Tell me where there is freedom in that? I cannot see any difference in what you are preaching to the old covenant.. I have asked you this a few times and you have always ignored it and picked bits out that u could try and use against me.. Please can you tell me what you believe Jesus died for ?

 

[Billyd]

Let's bring this discussion back to earth. I believe that all accept that we are saved by grace through our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Some here (including myself) believe that once we are saved, there is nothing that can take us from the Savior who Saved us. Others believe that we can be taken from the Savior by sin in our life. I believe that they are wrong, but I will not condemn them for this belief. There is nothing to be gained from the eternal debate on this issue.

My problem with what I have read thus far is that some believe that we are don't have to seek forgiveness of our sins from God. There are two things that Jesus taught prove this wrong. When the taught us to pray, we were to pray forgive us of our sins as we forgive others. He also taught us to pray without ceasing. Then he went on to tell us that when we seek his forgiveness, he is faithful to forgive us. So, pray often, and always seek his forgiveness when we pray. There is no doubt that, when we ask, he will forgive us.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Time and time again people have told you from the grace side of things that people do need to address sin in their life. It is not to be ignored. Yet, you continue to bear false witness and slander people by falsely defining their beliefs and the consequential results of their beliefs. You have not taken their beliefs to their logical end, but are seeing blindly. God works in paradoxes at times, and liberty does not lead to licentiousness. It sets us free from sin's dominion, as we are under grace.

I don't know how many times and different ways it has been explained to you, but you continue to falsely define people's beliefs (even after you have been corrected). On and on you go with straw men, and then you take it down to no one's benefit. You cry and complain that people call you a liar to the "readers" and yet what else may you be called or your actions defined as? Ignorance? Malicious? Are we to assume you are innocently acting in these ways, acting sincerely wrong? If that is the case, here is to the thousandth time you've been addressed and corrected. VVill it stick this time, or will you continue to slander people?

It doesn't matter what you say. We can go to a number of hyper grace websites to see what is plainly written. It's not for us to take things that you say to their logical end that you want us to see (and then you call us liars and slanderers when we don't see it your way).