Dear 'BibleGuy' . . .
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yes, and that sounds simple to me
but for people who want to follow the dietary rules, it looks much more complicated
don't eat that, do eat this (but only under certain conditions)
I like
'...the simplicity that is in Christ.'
1 CORINTHIANS 10:25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience.
P
From the Glossary Intro at JGIG, written in 2008:
An Incorrect Paradigm
Faulty definitions, examples, analogies and reasonings are constructed, then those same faulty definitions, examples, analogies and reasonings are built upon as FACT to take the reader to the next doctrinal place the writer wishes the reader to go.
I have seen the same technique over and over in articles and teachings on HRM websites and in discourse with those who hold to Law keeping doctrine from all points on the spectrum.
This is what we see over and over from BibleGuy and others here at CC who mix Law an for believers in Christ.
-JGIG
Language. Powerful stuff. If you can control the language, define the terms, manipulate the paradigm of a thing – you exercise great power. [par·a·digm – A set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality for the community that shares them, especially in an intellectual discipline.]
An Incorrect Paradigm
As this illustration demonstrates, having an incorrect paradigm can change the picture of a thing quite a lot! Is it any wonder that those in the Hebrew Roots Movement have claimed the area of language as their primary pillar of “expertise” as they purpose to lure Christians away from the canon of Scripture to a more “enlightened” way of reading/interpreting Scripture and discerning doctrine? It’s a seductive way to change a Christian’s paradigm, and ends up in a set of beliefs and practices that is not supported by Scripture. It turns Christianity as inside out as the above illustration turns the concept of the solar system inside out. The picture is recognizable, but is totally false and unworkable when measured by reality.
I’m no linguist, but I’m no dim bulb, either, and it’s been amazing, disturbing, and somewhat amusing to discover how those in the HRM have determined to re-define terms and doctrines as well as pseudo re-translate the New Testament.
I’ve written this before but it’s worth repeating here – One of the things that is really important to be aware of regarding this and other heretical movements is that they engage in the re-definition of terms. Once that is accomplished, those re-defined terms become fields in which seeds of questionable doctrine can be cultivated.
And it’s the perfect set up for the same thing cults do: Convince you that what you know isn’t true, or is “incomplete”, then come in with fresh revelation based on previously “hidden” information.At HRM websites and in HRM teaching materials a consistent technique is employed to bring the reader to where the writer wishes them to go, and I can’t stress this enough:
I’m no linguist, but I’m no dim bulb, either, and it’s been amazing, disturbing, and somewhat amusing to discover how those in the HRM have determined to re-define terms and doctrines as well as pseudo re-translate the New Testament.
I’ve written this before but it’s worth repeating here – One of the things that is really important to be aware of regarding this and other heretical movements is that they engage in the re-definition of terms. Once that is accomplished, those re-defined terms become fields in which seeds of questionable doctrine can be cultivated.
And it’s the perfect set up for the same thing cults do: Convince you that what you know isn’t true, or is “incomplete”, then come in with fresh revelation based on previously “hidden” information.At HRM websites and in HRM teaching materials a consistent technique is employed to bring the reader to where the writer wishes them to go, and I can’t stress this enough:
Faulty definitions, examples, analogies and reasonings are constructed, then those same faulty definitions, examples, analogies and reasonings are built upon as FACT to take the reader to the next doctrinal place the writer wishes the reader to go.
I have seen the same technique over and over in articles and teachings on HRM websites and in discourse with those who hold to Law keeping doctrine from all points on the spectrum.
This is what we see over and over from BibleGuy and others here at CC who mix Law an for believers in Christ.
-JGIG
It is backwards. If I get the lawgiver inside me,and relinquish my rights,I am far more likely to ,not only do the law,but all the other attributes as well.
Besides how do they handle the sins of omission,and sins of the thought life.
Enter the confession booth,with human accountability.
P
You said that man came in afterwards and modified those laws.
The REASON is,how do you define work?
The reason they would forbid shoes is someone could conceivably plant in the divot in the dirt of a shoe.
Sandals now become a plow.
No matter what,Jesus is bigger than his law.
The reason a legalist is a legalist is because that dimension,that they are oblivious to,is backwards.
The REASON is,how do you define work?
The reason they would forbid shoes is someone could conceivably plant in the divot in the dirt of a shoe.
Sandals now become a plow.
No matter what,Jesus is bigger than his law.
The reason a legalist is a legalist is because that dimension,that they are oblivious to,is backwards.
.
Hi BibleGuy, at least to say it appropriately, I post in here independently. I cannot speak for someone else’s. Let me clarify my understanding of the pre cross and post cross teaching. As I said, Matthew 28:20 is the Great Commission of our Lord Jesus Christ prior to his departure on this earth and is therefore a post cross commands. Now going further a study of this post-cross of using the right division contains three fold truths or understanding:
1. Preaching of the Gospel. To preach or teach the gospel of Christ for salvation to all unsaved beginning at Jerusalem to the uttermost parts of the earth. Acts 1:8 Romans 1:16
2. Baptizing the Converts. All saved to be water baptized. The book of Acts has the all records for the early believers that obey this Great Commission.
3. Disciples the converts. All saved, baptized believers are to be taught in the whole counsel of God.
Let me point this clearly BibleGuy, there’s part in the Great Commission(post-cross commands) which the “going” and “teaching” of the Gospel does not require the “obedience of the Mosaic Law (Torah)” it so happens that the Bible requires only our faith or trust in Christ plus nothing.
The part which is after baptizing the converts is to disciple the converts and is teaching them to observe all things whatsoever Christ commanded. If Christ obeyed the Law, he sets the very examples for us to do yet there are certain scriptures that are already been fulfilled by Christ and requires anyone to fulfill. That which is fulfilled is no longer for anyone to fulfill. Example: The animal sacrifice for the atonement of sins which has already done by Christ, yet there are also applicable Old Testament principles for us to do. Example: Obeying our parents. Ephesian 5:1.
Blessings
1. Preaching of the Gospel. To preach or teach the gospel of Christ for salvation to all unsaved beginning at Jerusalem to the uttermost parts of the earth. Acts 1:8 Romans 1:16
2. Baptizing the Converts. All saved to be water baptized. The book of Acts has the all records for the early believers that obey this Great Commission.
3. Disciples the converts. All saved, baptized believers are to be taught in the whole counsel of God.
Let me point this clearly BibleGuy, there’s part in the Great Commission(post-cross commands) which the “going” and “teaching” of the Gospel does not require the “obedience of the Mosaic Law (Torah)” it so happens that the Bible requires only our faith or trust in Christ plus nothing.
The part which is after baptizing the converts is to disciple the converts and is teaching them to observe all things whatsoever Christ commanded. If Christ obeyed the Law, he sets the very examples for us to do yet there are certain scriptures that are already been fulfilled by Christ and requires anyone to fulfill. That which is fulfilled is no longer for anyone to fulfill. Example: The animal sacrifice for the atonement of sins which has already done by Christ, yet there are also applicable Old Testament principles for us to do. Example: Obeying our parents. Ephesian 5:1.
Blessings
The Lawyer is just trying to tempt Christ and is not actually seeking a real deal or questions about eternal life. So our Lord Jesus pointed to him the impossibility of doing the Law. Assuming “If” ever the lawyer did according to his might what is written in the Law still the Lord told him that he shall only live by it and not a bit of offering eternal life. It will be noted that it was not Christ who says this and that of the Law for eternal life but the lawyer with no good intention.
There you are and I see you’re coming from. Salvation by grace through faith leads to eternal life. Correct! Obeying the TORAH on the other hand that is applicable to the saved Christian is for rewards during JSOC and not to gain eternal life.
God bless.
There you are and I see you’re coming from. Salvation by grace through faith leads to eternal life. Correct! Obeying the TORAH on the other hand that is applicable to the saved Christian is for rewards during JSOC and not to gain eternal life.
God bless.
Hi, BibleGuy, not so sure of feeling “guilty of falling for the bait”. I post independently.
Premise No. 5
Deut. 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth (mowtsa) out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Christ said what was “written” in the Law (Torah), the 5 books of Moses contains the word that proceededth out of the mouth of the LORD. What word has been proceedeth out from the source who is God has been written by Moses. Not that which proceedeth out contains the written(grapho) TORAH. My premise is:
First, God spoke the things the Israelites have to do so we have
Verbal – words that proceedeth out of the mouth
then those words that were heard by Moses, which comes from God were taught verbally by Moses to the Israelites which were also written down as quoted by Christ.
Written – Torah words written by Moses.
So basically your premise does not agree with Christ himself and the scriptures as whole.
Premise No. 8
Your premise 8 is in contradictory to the Word of God. Again, what was written (grapho) in the Law of Moses (TORAH) is what cited by Christ. What Christ cited is what written in the Torah. BTW, Moses is not even aware of the Greek you are saying. He did write in Hebrew language if not, Moses has written it in the Egyptian language, his known language but not even a slightest possibility of the Greek you referred to. Then again, you’re Greek LXX for the word “rhema” simply is not cited by Christ. Let me quote
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written(grapho), Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word(rhema) that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Deut. 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth (mowtsa) out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
So directly Christ did quote what was written “grapho” by Moses and not the “rhema” as you mentioned. It is not what every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God during that time or moment Christ cited it but rather what has been written by Moses.
Blessings
Premise No. 5
Deut. 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth (mowtsa) out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Christ said what was “written” in the Law (Torah), the 5 books of Moses contains the word that proceededth out of the mouth of the LORD. What word has been proceedeth out from the source who is God has been written by Moses. Not that which proceedeth out contains the written(grapho) TORAH. My premise is:
First, God spoke the things the Israelites have to do so we have
Verbal – words that proceedeth out of the mouth
then those words that were heard by Moses, which comes from God were taught verbally by Moses to the Israelites which were also written down as quoted by Christ.
Written – Torah words written by Moses.
So basically your premise does not agree with Christ himself and the scriptures as whole.
Premise No. 8
Your premise 8 is in contradictory to the Word of God. Again, what was written (grapho) in the Law of Moses (TORAH) is what cited by Christ. What Christ cited is what written in the Torah. BTW, Moses is not even aware of the Greek you are saying. He did write in Hebrew language if not, Moses has written it in the Egyptian language, his known language but not even a slightest possibility of the Greek you referred to. Then again, you’re Greek LXX for the word “rhema” simply is not cited by Christ. Let me quote
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written(grapho), Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word(rhema) that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Deut. 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth (mowtsa) out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
So directly Christ did quote what was written “grapho” by Moses and not the “rhema” as you mentioned. It is not what every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God during that time or moment Christ cited it but rather what has been written by Moses.
Blessings
Wow, I got a few posts in and fell fast asleep. Guess I was more tuckered than I thought.
What strikes me about all of these posts - is that they are either for Christ or for Law. The dichotomy is striking, and bears out the truth in this passage:
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (from Rom. 7)
We need to understand that we need to die to the Law SO THAT we may be joined to, belong to another, Who is Christ, IN ORDER that we may bear Fruit for God. If we DON'T die to the Law, the opposite is true - we cannot be joined to Christ, and we won't be able to bear Fruit for God! Why? Because -
18 The former regulation [not just the priesthood] is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. (from Heb. 7)
Which is why Romans 7 says we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. Because in Christ, we died - we were crucified with Him - and were raised into New Life and gifted the righteousness of God that is apart from the Law (Gal. 2, Rom. 3).
That's why we're told,
6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. (from Col. 2)
It doesn't say, so walk in Torah Law, established in the commandments. No, and 2 Cor. 3 tells us that the commandments, as good and holy as they are, in comparison to the New Covenant in Christ are a ministry of death:
4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?
9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.
16 But when one turns to the Lord,the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. (from 2 Cor. 3)
Driving over here today I listened to lots of praise and worship music, and a this song really ministered to my spirit - we'll all bow down - to Christ the King, not to a set of codified laws, but to a Living, Breathing Saviour Who died and then rose from the dead for us \o/! It really is the most amazing thing that He did, and that He continues to do as our Perfect, Permanent, High Priest! And He invites whosoever will into this glorious New Covenant by faith. And I am thankful \o/!
Good night, All,
-JGIG
What strikes me about all of these posts - is that they are either for Christ or for Law. The dichotomy is striking, and bears out the truth in this passage:
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (from Rom. 7)
We need to understand that we need to die to the Law SO THAT we may be joined to, belong to another, Who is Christ, IN ORDER that we may bear Fruit for God. If we DON'T die to the Law, the opposite is true - we cannot be joined to Christ, and we won't be able to bear Fruit for God! Why? Because -
18 The former regulation [not just the priesthood] is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. (from Heb. 7)
Which is why Romans 7 says we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. Because in Christ, we died - we were crucified with Him - and were raised into New Life and gifted the righteousness of God that is apart from the Law (Gal. 2, Rom. 3).
That's why we're told,
6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. (from Col. 2)
4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?
9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.
16 But when one turns to the Lord,the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. (from 2 Cor. 3)
Driving over here today I listened to lots of praise and worship music, and a this song really ministered to my spirit - we'll all bow down - to Christ the King, not to a set of codified laws, but to a Living, Breathing Saviour Who died and then rose from the dead for us \o/! It really is the most amazing thing that He did, and that He continues to do as our Perfect, Permanent, High Priest! And He invites whosoever will into this glorious New Covenant by faith. And I am thankful \o/!
[video=youtube;JfO1t6jSHHA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfO1t6jSHHA[/video]
Good night, All,
-JGIG
R
From previous posts back and forth between me and Bibleguy he believes that we become a Jew once we are saved. That is why he posts what he does.
The Jew in part has been blinded during this age because they will not accept that the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the law. He became that perfect sacrifice accepted by the Father for our sins imputing us HIS righteousness through the death, burial, and Resurrection.
Until Bibleguy turns his heart towards the Lord his vail will remain over his heart, being blinded to the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. We can and have refuted every point that bibleguy makes but he will not see that until he turns to the Lord. We must remember this when posting back to bibleguy that we cannot remove the vail he must do it by turning to the Lord Jesus Christ. That is why we must not get frustrated or insult bibleguy, but continue to use scripture to refute his position and help young Christians (i dont mean age) avoid being led back under the law.
God Bless
- II Corinthians 3:13-16 States Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it (the heart) shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
The Jew in part has been blinded during this age because they will not accept that the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the law. He became that perfect sacrifice accepted by the Father for our sins imputing us HIS righteousness through the death, burial, and Resurrection.
Until Bibleguy turns his heart towards the Lord his vail will remain over his heart, being blinded to the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. We can and have refuted every point that bibleguy makes but he will not see that until he turns to the Lord. We must remember this when posting back to bibleguy that we cannot remove the vail he must do it by turning to the Lord Jesus Christ. That is why we must not get frustrated or insult bibleguy, but continue to use scripture to refute his position and help young Christians (i dont mean age) avoid being led back under the law.
God Bless
Hi,
The teaching is called Replacement Theology or Supersessionism , replacing Israel or that the church is a substitute for the true Israelite. Yea we know that God is not yet through with the nation Israel. Their blindness was just in part and someday God will bring them to knowledge of Messiah.
God bless
The teaching is called Replacement Theology or Supersessionism , replacing Israel or that the church is a substitute for the true Israelite. Yea we know that God is not yet through with the nation Israel. Their blindness was just in part and someday God will bring them to knowledge of Messiah.
God bless
Wrong
Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.