Brexit - Do we stay or do we go

[Desdichado]

Like I said - isolated cases.

There will always be idiots and morons but it's not the norm.

Reminds me of my recent arguments with buddies over Bernie Sanders supporters. Sure, the fringe of them are violent and, I would argue, that the most truly violent faction in American politics is the Sanders-inclined Far-Left.

But the vast majority of Sanders supporters are physically harmless public school teachers and organic gardeners. People with whom I would gladly associate were there a breakdown of law and order or worse, a community barbecue.

 

[trofimus]

Anyway what exactly is your gripe? Why are you so bothered about the "out" vote?

I am not "so bothered". Right now there is no other interesting forum thread going on

So I play to be some opposition to "hurray! finally out of the antichrist dictature of EU" Just to test your reasons.

 

[Desdichado]

The Progressives have polarized politics so much that we have forgotten what it truly means to be a community. The meaning of the term "community" itself is up for debate. We are different tribes within the same borders. Our goals are no longer compromise, but domination and subjugation within an electoral framework.

We believe things about one another that simply are not so, because we don't take time to get to know our physical neighbors if they do not happen to align with our ideology.

Now that I've shown my Glenn Beck-ish squishy side, I have to add that if the West has any hope of survival, the principles of the Christian polity (affix whatever label you wish to them) and traditional society must win at the ballot box and apply maximum leverage in policy-making.

To bring things full circle, that is why I ultimately lent my completely inconsequential moral support to vote Out/Leave.

 

[Desdichado]

I am not "so bothered". Right now there is no other interesting forum thread going on

So I play to be some opposition to "hurray! finally out of the antichrist dictature of EU" Just to test your reasons.

I'm happy you do. You make things interesting without acting like a complete troll.

It's nice to see someone who wants to make a reasoned argument without being a complete jerk like yours truly.

 

[Miri]

Just read these EU guys cannot be prosecuted ..ever for the crimes they commit in office ...what the heck?

That a large portion of these people are the old east German communist ...these people have just set up a new centralized government based on the communist model with absolutely no accountability to the people.

There is diplomatic immunity but I'm not sure if this is the same thing. It refers to
diplomats committing crimes - say for example on UK soil - while carrying out their role as a
diplomat.

 

[Miri]

I've been listening to the turn of events on my radio today, it all seems like a big sorry mess. It would seem that Boris Johnson has his own agenda and appears to me as if he wasn't really in it because he had the same concerns as the rest of us. I hope he doesn't get David Cameron's job! As For David Cameron, he was so sure the remain camp would win that he had no plan B in place in the event the vote would go otherwise. Now he wants to abandon ship and no one knows who is going to take over, if there is going to be a general election, when the process of leaving the EU will begin or what happens about the migrant workers or our trading within the EU....even the Labour party is now in disarray! So yeah a big sorry mess. Thanks Cameron!

Reading between the lines I think Cameron was always going to go anyway.
We always knew this was his last term in office as prime minister, he said that himself at
the last election.

But from what the media is saying, he took out a mortgage 8 days before the Brexit vote. Seems a
bit suspicious does that. Maybe he never had a Brexit plan because he was never planning on staying.
Its in all the papers.

As for Corbyn he is probably being made the scapegoat as Cameron is stepping down.
Besides I think most people knew the labour party could never win an election with Corbyn, both
inside the party and out on the streets. It really was the lesser of two evils at the last election.
None of them were looking good.

David and Samantha Cameron took out new mortgage eight days before EU referendum

 

[Desdichado]

Reading between the lines I think Cameron was always going to go anyway.
We always knew this was his last term in office as prime minister, he said that himself at
the last election.

But from what the media is saying, he took out a mortgage 8 days before the Brexit vote. Seems a
bit suspicious does that. Maybe he never had a Brexit plan because he was never planning on staying.
Its in all the papers.

As for Corbyn he is probably being made the scapegoat as Cameron is stepping down.
Besides I think most people knew the labour party could never win an election with Corbyn, both
inside the party and out on the streets. It really was the lesser of two evils at the last election.
None of them were looking good.

David and Samantha Cameron took out new mortgage eight days*before EU referendum

That would make sense. Were I Cameron, I would want to end my time as a very unpopular Prime Minister on a note of success.

 

[trofimus]

There is diplomatic immunity but I'm not sure if this is the same thing. It refers to
diplomats committing crimes - say for example on UK soil - while carrying out their role as a
diplomat.

Mitspa could shed some light on what he means by "EU guys"
Its like saying "US guys". It can mean president of US, diplomats, ambassadors, official delegations, military personel or average Joe on a vacation.

 

[Desdichado]

Mitspa could shed some light on what he means by "EU guys"
Its like saying "US guys". It can mean president of US, diplomats, ambassadors, official delegations, military personel or average Joe on a vacation.

Or Vice President Joe on vacation acting like a complete moron.

 

[Miri]

I wonder if anything will change. So far it seems that the Brexit campaign was based on fear of eastern EU and lies.

EU officials said if UK wants to have access to single European market, they would have to pay the same fee as they are paying now. And implement the laws of single market like they were in the EU...

And I think Poland will block UK to have this access if UK will not guarantee free movement of EU citizens. So we will see...

I hope your favourite Polish lady will stay now: 'Go back home' - Bitter backlash post EU referendum - BBC News

There always was the possibility that to join the Euro Market, the UK would have to pay
Brussels and allow certain movemeant of migrants to some degree.
That was all over the news for weeks leading up to vote. I personally didn't vote
leave on the basis of the migrant issues.

However what a leave vote will do is allow the UK to vet migrants and also kick out those those
who commit crimes and put in place certain restrictions. At the moment the UK can't do
any of that, No one is saying the UK does not want any migrants at all. It's about being able
to take control back.

Incidentally the UK is not the first country to want to be out of the EU, that was
Greenland who apparently are doing very well for themselves.

No regrets for Greenland since it became the only nation to quit Europe   | Daily Mail Online

I agree though that there is a massive political mess in the UK at the moment, they need
to stop throwing the dummy out of the pram and get down to business.

The fact that they are spending more time arguing and fighting just shows the poor quality
of our current MPs, hope they all move over so we can have some proper adults running the
country.

 

[Desdichado]

There always was the possibility that to join the Euro Market, the UK would have to pay
Brussels and allow certain movemeant of migrants to some degree.
That was all over the news for weeks leading up to vote. I personally didn't vote
leave on the basis of the migrant issues.

However what a leave vote will do is allow the UK to vet migrants and also kick out those those
who commit crimes and put in place certain restrictions. At the moment the UK can't do
any of that, No one is saying the UK does not want any migrants at all. It's about being able
to take control back.

Incidentally the UK is not the first country to want to be out of the EU, that was
Greenland who apparently are doing very well for themselves.

No regrets for Greenland since it became the only nation to quit Europe * | Daily Mail Online

I agree though that there is a massive political mess in the UK at the moment, they need
to stop throwing the dummy out of the pram and get down to business.

The fact that they are spending more time arguing and fighting just shows the poor quality
of our current MPs, hope they all move over so we can have some proper adults running the
country.

At the end of the day, it seems to me that the vote was fundamentally about sovereignty and authority to most Out-ers. Am I wrong on this? Maybe I'm listening too much to the leaders of Out and not enough to the rank and file voter.

 

[trofimus]

Or Vice President Joe on vacation acting like a complete moron.

Now, that could be interesting!

 

[Desdichado]

Now, that could be interesting!

He was doing it a day ago in Ireland. Touting the Irish-American experience (whatever that means these days). I'm sure the Irish were really impressed.

 

[trofimus]

There always was the possibility that to join the Euro Market, the UK would have to pay
Brussels and allow certain movemeant of migrants to some degree.
That was all over the news for weeks leading up to vote. I personally didn't vote
leave on the basis of the migrant issues.

However what a leave vote will do is allow the UK to vet migrants and also kick out those those
who commit crimes and put in place certain restrictions. At the moment the UK can't do
any of that, No one is saying the UK does not want any migrants at all. It's about being able
to take control back.

Incidentally the UK is not the first country to want to be out of the EU, that was
Greenland who apparently are doing very well for themselves.

No regrets for Greenland since it became the only nation to quit Europe * | Daily Mail Online

I agree though that there is a massive political mess in the UK at the moment, they need
to stop throwing the dummy out of the pram and get down to business.

The fact that they are spending more time arguing and fighting just shows the poor quality
of our current MPs, hope they all move over so we can have some proper adults running the
country.

You did not, but most of voters seem to vote out just because of these payings and EU immigrants "taking their jobs".
So if UK will have these two main things unchanged, the vote for "out" was quite a false one.

I wonder why you cant kick out criminals. When France moved the gypsies from Romania and destroyed their camps, nobody said anything. You have posted one specific case report, where the death punishment was in play in his country , so maybe this is quite a special case.

Greenland has 60 thousand ppl, is under Denmark jurisdiction and is located quite far from EU. Great Britain is a power (political, economical, by population), that has real impact on its neighbours and the relationships with them are more complex. I dont know if this is a good example...

 

[trofimus]

There always was the possibility that to join the Euro Market, the UK would have to pay
Brussels and allow certain movemeant of migrants to some degree.
That was all over the news for weeks leading up to vote. I personally didn't vote
leave on the basis of the migrant issues.

However what a leave vote will do is allow the UK to vet migrants and also kick out those those
who commit crimes and put in place certain restrictions. At the moment the UK can't do
any of that, No one is saying the UK does not want any migrants at all. It's about being able
to take control back.

Incidentally the UK is not the first country to want to be out of the EU, that was
Greenland who apparently are doing very well for themselves.

No regrets for Greenland since it became the only nation to quit Europe * | Daily Mail Online

I agree though that there is a massive political mess in the UK at the moment, they need
to stop throwing the dummy out of the pram and get down to business.

The fact that they are spending more time arguing and fighting just shows the poor quality
of our current MPs, hope they all move over so we can have some proper adults running the
country.

a) I think that what most of people voting for leave wanted, will not change, so the campaign for leave was false, a little

b) I think GB will become more poorer (it is already now, because of GBP fall), but it can be temporary

c) I think GB will become smaller (Scotland?)

d) I think the bureaucracy will be higher (now it was one bureaucracy - common EU regulations, now you will have to have 27 contracts and legal systems with every single country in EU instead, working visas etc, plus the EU regulations if you want to be in a single EU market)

e) I think you will lost your influence in Europe. Till now, you could make changes in EU, be part of this process, to stand to Germany or France, vote with other countries against them. Now you will have to work only with what EU will give you, without a partaking in the process.

*****

But yes, on the other hand, you will have no obligation to obey European human rights organizations, if you see this as advantage And, maybe, you begun the end of EU, so that something better can originated from all of this

 

[Miri]

The voting and standing against EU legislation is a false idea.

There has been a a lot of discussion prior to the vote about trying to push for
countries to veto EU legislation and ideas if they are not happy with them.

In reality the UK got the big "your aving a laugh we will do as we please" routine.

To veto EU legislation it needs the following and this was the best the UK could get
out of them and it still has not been agreed! Only the UK were pushing for it at the time
of the Brexit.

The PM had pressed for the power for 55 per cent of parliaments – equivalent
to 16 parliaments in the 28 member states – to be able to block or rewrite
the proposed such legislation. “This will strengthen the power of Westminster
to stop unnecessary EU laws and addresses concerns that the current ‘yellow
card’ system has not proved strong enough. It ensures the EC cannot just
ignore the will of national parliamentarians and delivers greater democratic
control over what the EU does,” a Number 10 source said.


EU referendum: David Cameron closes in on deal to allow 'red card' veto on EU laws | UK Politics | News | The Independent

In other words if the UK was unhappy with EU legislation, they would have to get 16
other member states to back them. That will never happen in a million years. Say for
example if the EU decided that the top five countries who pay the most, have to pay more.
They would never get other countries (who benefit from this) to veto that.

Another example if the UK wanted to restrict migrant movements or have more checks in place.
No way would the other countries who want to get into the UK, want to block freedom of movement etc.

Or say if the EU decided the NHS had to be freely available to all EU citizens. Never in a
milliin years would other countries want to block that. Etc. The EU is all about creating a level
playing field which is achieved by bringing down the wealthier countries to the lower level of
everyone else. It is not about raising everyone else up.


Even more worrying this blocking of legislation still is not in place as far as I am aware.
So currently the member states cannnot block any EU legislation. If it is implemented
then it would still be a massive hurdle to veto anything.

The EU has become far too big and powerful for its own good with no accountability.

 

[Miri]

I came across this which, from a spiritual perspective, is the right thing to do.
We can all speculate and debate, but praise God He is still on the thrown and He knows
all things.

Post-referendum prayers | Christian Concern

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa could shed some light on what he means by "EU guys"
Its like saying "US guys". It can mean president of US, diplomats, ambassadors, official delegations, military personel or average Joe on a vacation.

The Eu has so much control that its very hard to find a concise understanding of how they give immunity to their officials ..but I did find this case as a example ..
European Comission College decides to lift the immunity of OLAF’s Kessler - The Malta Independent

 

[Mitspa]

This EU is just a updated communist central government and they have NO REGARD for free expression or feel in anyway they have to answer to the people they rule over.

 

[Mitspa]

I am not "so bothered". Right now there is no other interesting forum thread going on

So I play to be some opposition to "hurray! finally out of the antichrist dictature of EU" Just to test your reasons.

Have you ever ask yourself why you cannot take a position on such important issue ? Are you able to accept that there is evident truth and its often rather clear to see between good and evil?