the two witnesses are God the Father and the Holy Spirit

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badger58

Guest
Ok check this out, from the dead sea scrolls, kept hidden for years.

A careful analysis of the scroll provides numerous indications that the author(s) pictured Melchizedek as being both identical with and distinct from Yahweh God. For instance, the God (Elohim) of Psalm 82:1 who takes his stand in the assembly of God (El) to judge the other gods (Elohim) is said to be Melchizedek. The document also applies Psalm 7:7-8, which speaks of Yahweh judging, to Melchizedek thereby identifying him as Yahweh God (El)! The statement in Isaiah 52:7, "Your God (Elohim) reigns," is interpreted by the author(s) of the scroll to be a reference to Melchizedek reigning as God. Additionally, Melchizedek is said to atone for the sins of the righteous. These actions of atoning and judging are normally associated with God himself.
Now, the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Acts 17:11
Paul talked about Melchizedek in the book of hebrews(I think he wrote Hebrews) regardless, these thing beg investigation.
Don't just take cheap shots at the messenger. Do some homework.
 

Vdp

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But the messengers who tell lies are not walking with God. Its you who needs to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. I see no Truth in you.
 
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Revolations is better used as toilet paper. It is simply the drama and dramatic way in which fools today imagine the return of Almighty and the face of Almighty (Jesus). Almighty's Kingdom here on earth has already begun. Know Jesus by his words and works, he returned within a single temple and within that temple Almighty has placed some amazing gifts, and the spirit of truth is with him.
 
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badger58

Guest
But the messengers who tell lies are not walking with God. Its you who needs to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. I see no Truth in you.
Truth remains the truth, regardless of what you see. I feel sorry for you.
You are Gods problem, not mine. Everyone can see you for what you are. Your posts show you have no intelligence, only bitterness. You are showing only your true nature, that's all you are doing. You have more to worry about than me. You sound lost
And afraid. May God have mercy on you.

The Dead Sea Scrolls

Article contributed by Probe Ministries
Visit Probe's website





The Story of the Scrolls

Worship at the sacred Jerusalem Temple had become corrupt, with seemingly little hope for reform. A group of devoted Jews removed themselves from the mainstream and began a monastic life in the Judean desert. Their studies of the Old Testament Scriptures led them to believe that God's judgment upon Jerusalem was imminent and that the anointed one would return to restore the nation of Israel and purify their worship. Anticipating this moment, the Essenes retreated into the Qumran desert to await the return of their Messiah. This community, which began in the third century B.C., devoted their days to the study and copying of sacred Scripture as well as theological and sectarian works.

As tensions between the Jews and Romans increased, the community hid their valuable scrolls in caves along the Dead Sea to protect them from the invading armies. Their hope was that one day the scrolls would be retrieved and restored to the nation of Israel. In A.D. 70, the Roman general Titus invaded Israel and destroyed the city of Jerusalem along with its treasured Temple. It is at this time that the Qumran community was overrun and occupied by the Roman army. The scrolls remained hidden for the next two thousand years.

In 1947, a Bedouin shepherd named Muhammad (Ahmed el-Dhib) was searching for his lost goat and came upon a small opening of a cave. Thinking that his goat may have fallen into the cave, he threw rocks into the opening. Instead of hearing a startled goat, he heard the shattering of clay pottery. Lowering himself into the cave, he discovered several sealed jars. He opened them hoping to find treasure. To his disappointment, he found them to contain leather scrolls. He collected seven of the best scrolls and left the other fragments scattered on the ground.

Muhammad eventually brought some of the scrolls to a cobbler and antiquities dealer in Bethlehem named Khando. Khando, thinking the scrolls were written in Syriac, brought them to a Syrian Orthodox Archbishop named Mar (Athanasius) Samuel. Mar Samuel recognized that the scrolls were written in Hebrew and suspected they may be very ancient and valuable. He eventually had the scrolls examined by John Trevor at the American School of Oriental Research (ASOR). Trevor contacted the world's foremost tt.

After the initial discovery, archaeologists searched other nearby caves between 1952 and 1956. They found ten other caves that contained thousands of ancient documents as well. One of the greatest treasures of ancient manuscripts had been discovered: the Dead Sea Scrolls.
 
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dafty

Guest
what would u say badger if i said: 2 witnesses are Michael and Gabriel- the archangels? x
 
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dafty

Guest
PS. By the way- muslims believe Gabriel is Holy Spirit and lds that Michael is our heavenly Father...just saying
 
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badger58

Guest
what would u say badger if i said: 2 witnesses are Michael and Gabriel- the archangels? x
I would say: That's an interesting hypothesis, now lets test it through what we know about angels and various text relating to the two witnesses in Rev 11:4 and Zech 4:3-11 lets see if that hypothesis has legs.
That, I think is an honest way to handle the word of truth. Peace
 
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dafty

Guest
1 thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first x
ps. by the way badger, im not attacking you nor trying to wind you up, just love the subject xxx

 
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badger58

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Now, the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Acts 17:11
Paul talked about Melchizedek in the book of hebrews(I think he wrote Hebrews) regardless, these thing beg investigation.
Don't just take cheap shots at the messenger. Do some homework.
THE TWO WITNESSES STAND BEFORE THE GOD OF ALL THE EARTH.
DO THEY PERFORM THIS ROLE BEFORE THE GOD OF HEAVEN OVER THOUSANDS OF YEARS?
IF SO THEN IS THIS MORE THAN WE CAN EXPECT OF MERE HUMAN BEINGS?
In both the Revelation and the Zechariah accounts we see the same thing.
The two olive trees were "two witnesses" or "two anointed ones"
"standing before the Lord/God of the earth."
If these beings are standing before the God of all the earth then this looks like a long tenure. They have been standing before Him for over six thousand years of earth's history so far. And we must expect that they will continue this role in the Millennium to come and right up into the Millennial Rebellion at the end. We can expect these two witnesses to stand before God and report on earthly matters after that and right on up into the Great White Throne Judgment. So then, can the two witnesses be mere mortals? That statement about them standing before the God of the earth puts a big question mark on our traditional interpretations that these are Enoch and Elijah, or Moses and Elijah
 
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I still believe you have been deceived badger58 by Satan into doing his will.

Again i say, Repent and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior!
 
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badger58

Guest
I still believe you have been deceived badger58 by Satan into doing his will.

Again i say, Repent and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior!
What if your wrong? Is that possible? I have not denied the faith! I proclaim it loud and clear for all to here: There is no other name by which we must be saved! At the name of Jesus every knee shall bend. He is our savior.

The king James bible is based on copies of transcripts, the oldest ones are from 1000 a.d. What did you think would happen
when the greatest archeological find ever was revealed in 1947 in the caves at Qumran. Almost 1,000 scrolls dating back to
the macabre era. You don't think its worth investigating. Shame on you. Do you think they were found on accident! I don't, I believe they were found because God wanted them to be found.
As I have repeatedly said: This is not a salvation issue to Christians. We accept Jesus as our savior, but there is still a work to be done for the Jews, the natural olive branch. And so all Israel shall be saved. You are so narrow minded kenAllen to think Father is not going to work a work for them. I love Jesus! I am not taking anything away from him. You need to be careful with your accusations. It will all come out when the Two Witnesses arrive. I wonder if you will recognize them. Peace
 
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badger58

Guest
I still believe you have been deceived badger58 by Satan into doing his will.

Again i say, Repent and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior!

Józef Milik
Page issues



Józef Tadeusz Milik (Seroczyn, Poland, March 24, 1922 – Paris, January 6, 2006) was a Polish biblical scholar and a Catholic priest. Besides his native Polish, he was fluent in, Russian, Italian, French, German, and English plus many ancient languages Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Aramaic, Syriac, Old Church Slavonic, Arabic, Georgian, Ugaritic, Akkadian, Sumerian, Egyptian, and Hittite. Milik published more texts of the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) than any other original team member.

You must be right. He does not seem qualified at all.
It's a pity they didn't ask you to bring your great mind to the table.
I guess I have wasted 40 years of bible study as well. If you want to bury your head in the sand, that's your business. I think we owe it to our Maker to, at least give this some thought.
TRUTH Does NOT FEAR INVESTIGATION! I count it a very small thing to be ridiculed by you!
All I know is that I will go before the judgment seat with the assurance that God does not judge like you do.
 
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How can you say you studied the Scriptures for 40 years? You must have forget to open up the Bible when you did your study.

Your example of a Catholic Priest does prove there are many so called christians teaching the lies of Satan instead of the Truth.

You do know badger58 that the Catholics Worship Mary as their god? So i would not be quoting anything from the Catholics because we all know about how the Catholics misinterpret the Scriptures!
 
Mar 28, 2016
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THE TWO WITNESSES STAND BEFORE THE GOD OF ALL THE EARTH.
DO THEY PERFORM THIS ROLE BEFORE THE GOD OF HEAVEN OVER THOUSANDS OF YEARS?
IF SO THEN IS THIS MORE THAN WE CAN EXPECT OF MERE HUMAN BEINGS?
In both the Revelation and the Zechariah accounts we see the same thing.
The two olive trees were "two witnesses" or "two anointed ones"
"standing before the Lord/God of the earth."
If these beings are standing before the God of all the earth then this looks like a long tenure. They have been standing before Him for over six thousand years of earth's history so far. And we must expect that they will continue this role in the Millennium to come and right up into the Millennial Rebellion at the end. We can expect these two witnesses to stand before God and report on earthly matters after that and right on up into the Great White Throne Judgment. So then, can the two witnesses be mere mortals? That statement about them standing before the God of the earth puts a big question mark on our traditional interpretations that these are Enoch and Elijah, or Moses and Elijah
Moses and Elijah. Yes the law and the prophets. If men do not hear them than neither would they believe Christ came in the flesh and was resurrected in the Spirit of holiness.
 
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badger58

Guest
How can you say you studied the Scriptures for 40 years? You must have forget to open up the Bible when you did your study.

Your example of a Catholic Priest does prove there are many so called christians teaching the lies of Satan instead of the Truth.

You do know badger58 that the Catholics Worship Mary as their god? So i would not be quoting anything from the Catholics because we all know about how the Catholics misinterpret the Scriptures!
Mec99, your values are your values, but I pray that your way of thinking never growed into a religion.
But I guess you don't know, what you don't know. So I forgive you. The purpose of learning is not to be told what to think, but to
learn how to think. I escaped from wolves who taught what to think. I did it by prayer and bible study. Jesus saves, yes he does, but He expects us to build on Him. He is the foundation, but let a man build. The day will come when each mans structure will pass through the flames. That which can't take the fire will burn up, but the man will still be saved because he had the one foundation!(Christ). I am at peace and shall wait for the true judge, and He is not you.
I leave you with a gift. I hope you can find something to agree with. Peace


Biblical Theology


THE BIG 5: The 5 Most Influential Theologians in Church History



Michael Vlach

The most influential theologians in Church History.professor-at-work-1024629-m

They are the Big 5--the five most influential theologians in the history of the church. Together, their lives and teachings have affected religious and political systems and have dramatically changed or contributed to how people understand theology.

Although differing at times on significant points of doctrine, these five theologians share certain things in common. Each has written a massive number of volumes revealing their views on the major areas of doctrine. Second, each has significantly shaped how people view theology, not only in their era, but in the centuries after they lived. Third, each theologian has made such a significant contribution to theology that no serious discussion of Christian doctrine can safely ignore them or their teachings.

Who are these theologians who have left the biggest footprints on the path of church history?

We list them in chronological order:

1. AUGUSTINE (354–430)
By far, Augustine of Hippo was the most important theologian of the Patristic Era. He wrote hundreds of works including City of God and On the Trinity. He was the first theologian to thoroughly address the doctrines of man and salvation. Augustine taught that all people are born with original sin and that God predestines those whom He will save. Augustine also made huge contributions in the areas of the church and prophecy. In his battle with the Donatists, Augustine argued that people who lapsed because of persecution should be allowed back into church fellowship. Augustine is also known as "the father of amillennialism" since he promoted the idea that Satan is currently bound and that the millennium of Revelation 20 is being fulfilled in the present age. Many of his views carried over into the Middle Ages and became accepted as the orthodox positions of the church. Today, both Roman Catholics and Protestants often claim this greatest theologian of antiquity as support for their views.

2. THOMAS AQUINAS (1225–1274)
The greatest theologian of the Medieval Era, Thomas Aquinas developed a system of theology that became synonymous with Roman Catholic orthodoxy. Aquinas merged Aristotelian philosophy with Christianity, and in so doing, argued for a strong relationship between faith and reason. A strong proponent of natural revelation and the ability of nature to teach truths about God, Aquinas argued that God's existence and attributes could be proven through reason and observation of the created order. Aquinas produced 18 large volumes of theology. His most significant work was his massive Summa Theologiae ("summation of theology"). When the Protestant Reformation challenged Roman Catholicism, the Catholic Church drew upon the writings of Aquinas in drafting the decrees of the Council of Trent.

3. MARTIN LUTHER (1483–1546)
Little did this Augustinian monk know that when he nailed his "95 Theses" to the door of a Wittenberg church in 1517 that he would set in motion a chain of events that would change the course of history. The Protestant Reformation, of which Luther was the primary mover, forever changed the religious and political landscape of the Western world. Luther's contributions to theology are many. He rejected the idea that church tradition was equal to Scripture in authority. He also questioned the authority of the papacy. Luther argued that there were two marks of the church--the Word preached and the sacraments of Baptism and Lord's Supper rightly applied. Luther's most important contribution was his insistence that justification was based on faith alone, apart from works. The Lutheran denomination was based on his teachings. Both Life magazine and Biography of the Millennium (which aired on the A&E network) listed Luther as the third most important person of the millennium.

4. JOHN CALVIN (1509–64)
If Luther was the primary starter of the Reformation, John Calvin was its main theologian. With the precision of a surgeon, Calvin systematically expounded the major doctrines of the Protestant Reformation including the three solas--sola fide ("faith alone"), sola gratia ("grace alone") and sola scriptura ("scripture alone"). He also taught the doctrines of predestination and the absolute sovereignty of God. Calvin also ably defended that justification was a legal declaration of God and not a process of becoming right with God. In addition to his commentaries, this French theologian is most known for his work, Institutes of the Christian Religion. Calvin eventually became known as the Father of Reformed and Presbyterian theology. The popular designation "five points of Calvinism" is linked to the beliefs of John Calvin. Many today claim Calvin as a major influence in how they view theology.

5. KARL BARTH (1886–1968)
Though perhaps a notch below the other four theologians mentioned in this article, Swiss theologian, Karl Barth, rightly takes his place as one of the most influential theologians in church history.The most influential theologians in church history Barth exposed the bankruptcy of Protestant liberalism and ushered in the era of neo-orthodoxy. In stark contrast to the liberal overemphasis on God's immanence, Barth stressed the absolute transcendence of God. Also in contrast to liberalism, Barth stressed that God was the main agent in salvation, not man. Barth took a strong objective approach to the doctrine of salvation. According to Barth, Christ objectively united the entire human race to Himself and wrought salvation for all by His victory on the cross. Barth is also known for his strong emphasis on Christology, which for him was the cornerstone of all areas of theology. Barth's massive Church Dogmatics records the teachings of this influential theologian. When Barth died in 1968, volume 13 was unfinished. Evangelicals, liberal Protestants, and Catholics often refer to Barth in serious discussions of theology.

These are the Big 5--Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, and Barth.

Those who desire to be serious students of theology should become acquainted with the basic teachings of these five men. Students researching a particular area of doctrine such as salvation or the church should also search to see what these five theologians said about that subject. Doing so does not mean that one will necessarily embrace all that these five wrote, but having a familiarity with their teachings will add depth to one's knowledge and will reveal a keen sensitivity to the major movers in church history.
 
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badger58

Guest
Moses and Elijah. Yes the law and the prophets. If men do not hear them than neither would they believe Christ came in the flesh and was resurrected in the Spirit of holiness.
How about this, if they wont hear the Father or the Holy Spirit, neither will they believe The Son!
 
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badger58

Guest
Revolations is better used as toilet paper. It is simply the drama and dramatic way in which fools today imagine the return of Almighty and the face of Almighty (Jesus). Almighty's Kingdom here on earth has already begun. Know Jesus by his words and works, he returned within a single temple and within that temple Almighty has placed some amazing gifts, and the spirit of truth is with him.
With Him, not with you!
 
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Enoch and Elijah represent the rapture on the last day as those that remain alive on earth meeting the saints that are asleep and both being changed given their new incorruptible bodies.

Moses who represents the written law that will not be part of the new order and is why he was shown in a parable of not entering the Promised Land. By striking the Rock twice. He could not be used to represent the rapture. But rather to fulfill the law below .

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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How about this, if they wont hear the Father or the Holy Spirit, neither will they believe The Son!
Thanks, That would seem to be a better way

Are you a badger form Wisconsin?
.
 
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dafty

Guest
According to Codex Alexandrinus (A), Codex Vaticanus, Codex Ephraemi (C), as the oldest manuscripts, as well as early church theologians such as Arethas of Caesarea, the original Greek text of Revelation 11:8 uses the word 'body' instead of 'bodies', whereas later the text switches back to using the plural form 'bodies' in verse 9. The plural v. singular ambiguity is reinforced in Rev. 11:5 where the original Greek text of the oldest manuscripts uses the term 'mouth' in the singular instead of 'mouths' in the plural. Therefore, verse 11:5 reads: "If any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies," and verse 11:8 reads "And their dead body shall lie in the street of the great city." Some authors have suggested that this grammar is the strongest clue to identifying who this end time prophets (or prophet) are, such as Leon G. Van Wert is his book The Jewish Popes: The Two Harbingers of the End Times,[SUP][16][/SUP] who elucidates how it is possible, based on the grammatical interpretation of the text, that the two witnesses be represented by just one person who would be a Jewish Pope, since the text requires that the "two" witnesses have one common i.e. shared mouth, and one shared body, and therefore "they" have to be a single person. However, others have suggested to use the scriptural definition of the meaning of one body from Genesis 2:24, where a husband and a wife are united to form one flesh. In Mark 10:8 Jesus emphasizes that after marriage a husband and a wife "are no longer two, but one flesh." There are many Bible readers and theologians who share this view, and they have pointed out that this fact of the possibility of an end-time female prophet should be allowed to surface to greater public awareness in spite of fears due to alleged accusations of a deeply rooted misogynistic attitude at certain echelons in Church and theological organizations.