Can we or can we not lose our salvation?

[PeterJens]

What is of faith?

Was it of faith for Nineveh to repent and God did not judge them?
And which faith? Faith in God the creator, faith in God of Israel.

Now if someone who does not follow God, yet does things good while thinking about the creator, is this in faith?

If someone does something in love, God the Lord of love, may well regard this as in faith, honouring His Spirit.

I remember a long discussion about the good samaritan, was he really good, or did he have to be a believer to be good?
No one quoted romans 14:23 but now I see the connection.

My point has always been simple. To say your faith defines morality, and good people though not in agreement with your own faith position are now evil. It also explains why I am evil in your eyes because I do not follow this interpretation.

 

[notmyown]

What is of faith?

Was it of faith for Nineveh to repent and God did not judge them?
And which faith? Faith in God the creator, faith in God of Israel.

Now if someone who does not follow God, yet does things good while thinking about the creator, is this in faith?

If someone does something in love, God the Lord of love, may well regard this as in faith, honouring His Spirit.

I remember a long discussion about the good samaritan, was he really good, or did he have to be a believer to be good?
No one quoted romans 14:23 but now I see the connection.

My point has always been simple. To say your faith defines morality, and good people though not in agreement with your own faith position are now evil. It also explains why I am evil in your eyes because I do not follow this interpretation.

there are 'good people' outside of Christ?

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Rom 3:9-18)


i see the parable of the 'good' samaritan (a name we have given that parable, btw)
as a lesson on whom to identify with, first and foremost. and secondarily who is our neighbor.

though i'd like to identify with the one who helped, in truth and outside of Christ
i was the one who passed by and did not help.
most of all, i was the one left for dead, beaten and helpless, waiting for Rescue.

Christ is the 'good samaritan'... the One who Rescues the beaten traveller.
that dead guy, who used to be me.

 

[PeterJens]

Yeah Yeah Whatever,, Another lie.
Yes my morality is different, My morality is Gods, Perfection. You water down Gods law. No wonder you excuse your sin.

Now in morality, interpretation differences are not lying. For our side dropping into saying I am lying is unfortunate.

But your approach is empty, because it has no integrity. You are a sinner lost in sin by your own definition
never acceptable to God, always defiled and never quite knowing why. This is not salvation, it is binding
believers in guilt and condemnation, and saying Jesus's gospel was to show men are eternally lost.
Well lost man, you are lost and will never be free.

I can do nothing for you, because the hand I reach out with you say is lying and evil. So if I am evil, then
so is all I represent and you have chosen your fate.

 

[gb9]

Now in morality, interpretation differences are not lying. For our side dropping into saying I am lying is unfortunate.

But your approach is empty, because it has no integrity. You are a sinner lost in sin by your own definition
never acceptable to God, always defiled and never quite knowing why. This is not salvation, it is binding
believers in guilt and condemnation, and saying Jesus's gospel was to show men are eternally lost.
Well lost man, you are lost and will never be free.

I can do nothing for you, because the hand I reach out with you say is lying and evil. So if I am evil, then
so is all I represent and you have chosen your fate.

peter, dude, no one is saying you are evil, ( if so, they are wrong ). I and I think others think you are mis-guided. yesterday 3 times you rejected Biblical definition of sin that I told you. by doing this, is seems you are making your own theology that suits you. this is what we are saying. do not use the Bible to make personal theology, use it AS theology!!

 

[PeterJens]

peter, dude, no one is saying you are evil, ( if so, they are wrong ). I and I think others think you are mis-guided. yesterday 3 times you rejected Biblical definition of sin that I told you. by doing this, is seems you are making your own theology that suits you. this is what we are saying. do not use the Bible to make personal theology, use it AS theology!!

gb9 - The definition of faith you hold is not mine. Your interpretation of scripture is not mine.

I think you have discovered scripture is open to interpretation, and God has made it that way.
If you want to follow love and integrity you can, or you can choose your own version of faith
you are happy with.

God has designed this world so that only those who walk with a pure heart will see the way.

The reason why scripture is so open is so you will be happy up to the time you meet Jesus.
What God is looking for is people like Him, who have a desire for righteousness from deep
in their hearts. It can only be like this, because God raises us up to be co-heirs with Him.

Now this is not mystic, I am not sure what I am, God will make me pure on the last day, but
those who see Jesus as a friend and brother, and say Amen, I am home, this is the Kingdom
of heaven.

But this is not your way, and you are 100% convinced in your position. You need to in the
end realise this is Gods will, His revelation and His divide, God bless you and may you find
peace in whatever way you can, and I hope you end in Praising His glorious resurrection.

 

[PeterJens]

Dear reader, theology is a complex subject.

Each believer hopes they understand things correctly, but we are always open to correction.
As a child I needed to know love and it was Jesus, His words and His example in christians I knew
that drew me on. Things have never changed for me, and love has always been the key.

What has been strange is to meet believers whose focus is elsewhere and want to say I am lost
empty, a pharisee, someone who is following the father of lies, double minded, with an empty heart,
full of defiling sin.

I find this odd simply because I preach purity and cleansing of the heart, discovering to be consistent
on the outside as you are on the inside. Now maybe I am poor at explaining emotional and spiritual
honesty, but to be described as the opposite of what I am and what I preach sounds to me like people
who are blind, deaf, and dumb.

Now I am not angry or agressive, I am open in my approach but obviously this is the enemy of many.
So I rest in Gods love and His message of forgiveness and cleansing, and testify, Jesus overcame that
you might be free, he was not joking or as a cynical joke, he meant it. This is the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[ZacharyB]

Aside from the numerous scriptures saying we are sealed and redeemed and promised, it would help if you knew a little about jewish traditions. In jewish tradition an adopted son has more rights than a natural born son, one of those being he can never be disowned. Since Jesus is a jew and since He upheld the entire law Christians as adopted sons and daughters can never be disowned. I know it is very hard for you to have faith in Jesus but He loves you and will never ever forsake you.

As always, this is all very nice ... but what are the dire warnings all about?
We must determine ... is God bluffing, exaggerating, lying even?
Or, are the warnings for real?

 

[FlSnookman7]

As always, this is all very nice ... but what are the dire warnings all about?
We must determine ... is God bluffing, exaggerating, lying even?
Or, are the warnings for real?

It's much more than nice it is the gospel that Jesus gave to paul. We are sealed, we are redeemed, we are the righteousness of God in Christ. Until you come to know who you really are in Christ you will never be able to fulfill His commandments.

 

[gb9]

gb9 - The definition of faith you hold is not mine. Your interpretation of scripture is not mine.

I think you have discovered scripture is open to interpretation, and God has made it that way.
If you want to follow love and integrity you can, or you can choose your own version of faith
you are happy with.

God has designed this world so that only those who walk with a pure heart will see the way.

The reason why scripture is so open is so you will be happy up to the time you meet Jesus.
What God is looking for is people like Him, who have a desire for righteousness from deep
in their hearts. It can only be like this, because God raises us up to be co-heirs with Him.

Now this is not mystic, I am not sure what I am, God will make me pure on the last day, but
those who see Jesus as a friend and brother, and say Amen, I am home, this is the Kingdom
of heaven.

But this is not your way, and you are 100% convinced in your position. You need to in the
end realise this is Gods will, His revelation and His divide, God bless you and may you find
peace in whatever way you can, and I hope you end in Praising His glorious resurrection.

the Biblical definition of sin is not open to interpretation. missing the mark, falling short of a standard, knowing to do good and not doing so are 100% Biblical truth. if you do believe this, look it up. do NOT just accept what a pastor, teacher, or anyone else says. fact-checking is a must.

be careful, people, about anyone who will not admit Biblical truth over personal opinion.

 

[PeterJens]

It is odd to hear someone talking about missing the mark then refusing to define the mark they are refering to.

What I have found is how deceptive people are, saying it is impossible to walking in purity and holiness
with Christ and this is the best they can come up with.

Jesus died on the cross so we can walk to the mark of love and purity. Or do you not believe this?
What was the point of saying he bought us victory if this is not what He meant.

I suspect rather than realising the Kingdom of heaven is an open door, people would rather wallow
is sin and defeat, because at least here there is never any disappointment.

Or on an emotional scale, it is best to destroy a loving relationship yourself than get badly hurt
when the other party destroys it. I mean, why trust God that He means what He says.

 

[Grace777x70]

Denying the Lord Jesus Crist is definitely sin. To deny Him is to not depend on His finished work only for your salvation. Any attempts of D.I.Y. self-righteousness /holiness is denying Christ.

We are saved by grace through faith. His life in us will then manifest as good works but it is not from human effort - it's the fruit of our union with Him as we are one in the Spirit. We are a new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

Work out what is already in you in fear and trembling as Paul says in Phil2:12-13 - because it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Here is what New Testament fear and trembling is as Jeremiah saw in the Spirit this day of the grace and goodness of God towards us that are in Christ.

Jeremiah 33:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] 'I will cleanse them from all their iniquity by which they have sinned against Me, and I will pardon all their iniquities by which they have sinned against Me and by which they have transgressed against Me.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] 'It will be to Me a name of joy, praise and glory before all the nations of the earth which will hear of all the good that I do for them, and they will fear and tremble because of all the good and all the peace that I make for it.'

We will fear and tremble when we hear of the good that He has done for us and that He ( Jesus ) has cleansed us from all iniquity.

We see a picture of this with Jesus and the woman with the issue of blood. It was with fear and trembling she came to Jesus and told him of the good He had done for her in that she was healed when she touched the helm of HIs garment.

 

[valiant]

What is of faith?

Was it of faith for Nineveh to repent and God did not judge them?
And which faith? Faith in God the creator, faith in God of Israel.

yes it says it was in the name of Jonah's God, the God of Israel,

Now if someone who does not follow God, yet does things good while thinking about the creator, is this in faith?

no for no one does 'good'

If someone does something in love, God the Lord of love, may well regard this as in faith, honouring His Spirit.

why? He does not do it for love of God.

I remember a long discussion about the good samaritan, was he really good, or did he have to be a believer to be good?

but he believed in the God of Moses.

 

[PeterJens]

Denying the Lord Jesus Crist is definitely sin. To deny Him is to not depend on His finished work only for your salvation. Any attempts of D.I.Y. self-righteousness /holiness is denying Christ.

This is where the truth comes out. The truth is we have sin that needs forgiving. One sin is enough to send you to hell.
Now here is an interesting contradiction.

If as a believer in Christ all your future sin is forgiven, then so is disbelief in Jesus or working for your own self-righteousness is sin and unforgivable how can all future sin be forgiven. What about the sin against the Holy Spirit?

Now I have heard too many times the only unforgivable sin is to disbelieve Jesus. But this cannot be true, if as a believing christian you are saved, and then later in your life disbelieve. It would mean a believer can loose their salvation, yet this theology says this is impossible.

So let us regard the idea here. I am sinning because I say you need to be holy and pure, to walk in the righteousness Christ has bought for you through the cross, because this is not depending on Christ but on your ability to walk in purity, which he purchased at the greatest cost so you could walk in it.

But because I believe this is why Jesus died, ofcourse I do not consider this a sin but our inheritance.
And I accept in your faith, I am a sinner walking with Jesus, but that is why I believe as I do and
you believe as you do.

And I have explained at length why I regard this version of faith heresy, and why I follow Jesus
as I do. The more you repeat your ideas, the more it confirms my position and shows me how
embedded you are in failure and defeat. It also explains why simple faith statements cause these
long arguments, because we follow a different faith model.

Now if you are still moral upright people, then I leave you alone, believe as you do.
But if you condemn my brothers and sisters as sinners commiting sin by walking in purity
righteousness and holiness, then you have become the accuser of the brethren, no more no less.

This is why I am careful why I talk with people and why I look at what they mean.
It can never be a sin to walk in righteousness, that is following Jesus.

 

[PeterJens]

yes it says it was in the name of Jonah's God, the God of Israel,
no for no one does 'good'
why? He does not do it for love of God.
but he believed in the God of Moses.

The fool[a] says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.
The Lord looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
All have turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
Do all these evildoers know nothing?
They devour my people as though eating bread;
they never call on the Lord.
But there they are, overwhelmed with dread,
for God is present in the company of the righteous.
You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor,
but the Lord is their refuge.
Psalm 14:1-6

The psalm is saying in all mankind all have fallen away.
And yet there are people who are righteous.

So though all have fallen away, yet the Lord has redeemed the righteous,
a seeming contradiction.

Now are the righteous really righteous, redeemed from sinners, or only
righteous figuratively. I would suggest they are really righteous, because
their sins have been forgiven and forgotton.

But to many here say that is impossible, for sin is always in their daily lives
condemning and making them know they need Jesus to take their place and
be their righteousness, because they cannot stop sinning.

They do not deny this cycle, it is inevitable, so Jesus setting them free is a lie.

You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Rom 6:18

It sounds like these believers are not walking in what Paul is saying is our
inheritence. They should really ask why unbelief and a lack of communion
with Christ has left them in this state, rather than proclaiming this is what
Jesus expects our lives to be and you are a sinner not to agree with us.

The sad joke is if I am a sinner believing as I do, why should I join a bunch
of sinners who are just wallowing in defeat and say it does not matter
anyway. I am much better off where I am, even if I believed this defeat,
which I do not.

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by Grace777x70

Denying the Lord Jesus Crist is definitely sin. To deny Him is to not depend on His finished work only for your salvation. Any attempts of D.I.Y. self-righteousness /holiness is denying Christ.

This is where the truth comes out. The truth is we have sin that needs forgiving. One sin is enough to send you to hell.
Now here is an interesting contradiction.

If as a believer in Christ all your future sin is forgiven, then so is disbelief in Jesus or working for your own self-righteousness is sin and unforgivable how can all future sin be forgiven. What about the sin against the Holy Spirit?

Now I have heard too many times the only unforgivable sin is to disbelieve Jesus. But this cannot be true, if as a believing christian you are saved, and then later in your life disbelieve. It would mean a believer can loose their salvation, yet this theology says this is impossible.

So let us regard the idea here. I am sinning because I say you need to be holy and pure, to walk in the righteousness Christ has bought for you through the cross, because this is not depending on Christ but on your ability to walk in purity, which he purchased at the greatest cost so you could walk in it.

But because I believe this is why Jesus died, ofcourse I do not consider this a sin but our inheritance.
And I accept in your faith, I am a sinner walking with Jesus, but that is why I believe as I do and
you believe as you do.

And I have explained at length why I regard this version of faith heresy, and why I follow Jesus
as I do. The more you repeat your ideas, the more it confirms my position and shows me how
embedded you are in failure and defeat. It also explains why simple faith statements cause these
long arguments, because we follow a different faith model.

Now if you are still moral upright people, then I leave you alone, believe as you do.
But if you condemn my brothers and sisters as sinners commiting sin by walking in purity
righteousness and holiness, then you have become the accuser of the brethren, no more no less.

This is why I am careful why I talk with people and why I look at what they mean.
It can never be a sin to walk in righteousness, that is following Jesus.

Where in the world did you get all that from my post?...

These "conclusions" are from your own construct in your mind. I have said it from the beginning I first met you on CC.

You take something someone says - you "construct" in your mind what you think they are saying and then make a whole new meaning out of it. Then this thought seizes your mind until "it becomes real" to you in your own thinking.

You develop these "constructs" that you formulate in your mind. This is why people are continuously challenging you when you post.

But you are free to do that but when you say things people are not saying - those are just your own "constructs" that you made up in your own mind. You are free to have them - it's just that they are not real.

 

[PeterJens]

To a person who is closed minded, the implications of their words do not exist, because if they did
they would no longer be closed minded.

The problem with single strand thinking, you do not see the whole see of alternatives there really are
and how what you are expressing fits into this mixture.

Jesus when dealing with the pharisees used parables.
The other day I used a symbol of a car.

I was interesting how different people took this idea and embellished on it.
Most of life is not what we say but what we do not say or include.

I did a search for who had talked about people are born with a heart of love.
It was the nuns, monks and the pope who have addressed these issues.

That is quite revealing because these people sacrifice in a real way their future
for the love of Christ, and pursue contemplation to understand what it means to
walk closer with Him. Yet so many dismiss their offerings like they are the enemy,
when very often they are true brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[KenAllan]

Still people do not understand Salvation.

Yes, denying that Jesus is God is a sin, BUT its a sin that has been washed clean by the Blood of Jesus.

Do people not know we will NOT be Judged by God for our sins? How can we be Judged for our sins if they have already been forgiven?

Revelation 20:11-15
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

We are Judged by our deeds, not by our sins. Also we are Judged by if our name is in the Book of Life. Deeds could be considered sins, but i believe deeds are linked to accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Like I said, we are not Judged by our sins.

Worry more about what deeds you do and worry if your name is not in the Book of Life.

 

[FlSnookman7]

To a person who is closed minded, the implications of their words do not exist, because if they did
they would no longer be closed minded.

The problem with single strand thinking, you do not see the whole see of alternatives there really are
and how what you are expressing fits into this mixture.

Jesus when dealing with the pharisees used parables.
The other day I used a symbol of a car.

I was interesting how different people took this idea and embellished on it.
Most of life is not what we say but what we do not say or include.

I did a search for who had talked about people are born with a heart of love.
It was the nuns, monks and the pope who have addressed these issues.

That is quite revealing because these people sacrifice in a real way their future
for the love of Christ, and pursue contemplation to understand what it means to
walk closer with Him. Yet so many dismiss their offerings like they are the enemy,
when very often they are true brothers and sisters in Christ.

This explains a lot. The catholic church wants you to believe you are still a sinner after salvation and that you need to confess so they can keep the power over you. God says we are the righteousness of God in Christ. We need no priest to talk to God. That veil was torn top to bottom so that we may now come boldly before the throne of grace seeking mercy. I believe many catholics are saved even though they are being mislead by a pharasee lead church more concerned with keeping earthly power than leading the lost to Jesus.

 

[PeterJens]

Dear reader,

Imagine you come up with a theological concept, a christian cannot loose their salvation ever.
But there is a big flaw in the argument. The sin against the Holy Spirit.

Opps. Are you going to admit it? Not a chance because that destroys more than just one theological
position but your whole faith, literally.

You are a young person, you spend your life trying to be good and fail. You dump this faith
castigate it as hypocracy, the worst evil on the planet, religion, the thing the corrupted and destroyed
the true faith you now accept, Jesus accepts and does everything, just believe.

So you are totally caught. Burnt the bridges behind you, nailed your emotional colours to the mast
of hyper-grace, you will go down with the ship or die. Not exactly any other options, because you
know 100% you are right. I suppose you could just go nuts. Opps already done that...

 

[PeterJens]

Still people do not understand Salvation.

Ken, you follow a different faith from me. I do not accept your basic premise, so it makes no
sense. This idea we are judged by our deeds and not our sins is heresy.