So what about the fourth commandment?

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Sep 6, 2014
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Nice verses. I didn't see the one that told us to disregard God's Sabbaths.

Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 6:14

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
No, I don't recall having a run it with you, if you had a run it with anyone it wasn't with me. You are citing the covenant laws, which are not the everlasting Commandments, and if you don't believe Jesus when he told you his first Commandment, if you ran into anything you ran into the word.
Yes you do and I wasn't citing anything I was saying that is impossible to keep the sabbath as it was intended because man has tweaked it. where you get me condemning another brother is your own thoughts not mine.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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My take of 1 day off in 7 is we need this to survive.

A day off could be just doing something you enjoy, get involved with, family, anything.
But it matters. Our brains get into such a repeated straight line with the pressures of life, we need
to spend time with God, letting Him minister peace and rest to our souls.

That is all Jesus is saying. Work hard, but recognise the King for one day, it is good for you, regularly.
And I say Amen Amen Amen.

I have met people who have tried just to work through, they fall apart.
 
Jul 1, 2016
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Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 6:14

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Romans 7 is only speaking of one specific law - the law of marriage.
 
Jul 1, 2016
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My take of 1 day off in 7 is we need this to survive.

A day off could be just doing something you enjoy, get involved with, family, anything.
But it matters. Our brains get into such a repeated straight line with the pressures of life, we need
to spend time with God, letting Him minister peace and rest to our souls.

That is all Jesus is saying. Work hard, but recognise the King for one day, it is good for you, regularly.
And I say Amen Amen Amen.

I have met people who have tried just to work through, they fall apart.
Sorry to differ, but not one day which we choose. He chose the 7th day. It matters. Do you think someone tried to change times and laws? I think so.
 
T

Trail-of-Truth

Guest
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Ezekiel 11:19-20 (KJV)
I don't understand what your point is here. I did not say that we don't follow Gods law, just that we do so spiritually. Of course He changes our heart that is in our flesh because our soul is in a physical body, but He's not talking about the physical heart but spiritual heart.
 
Jul 1, 2016
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I don't understand what your point is here. I did not say that we don't follow Gods law, just that we do so spiritually. Of course He changes our heart that is in our flesh because our soul is in a physical body, but He's not talking about the physical heart but spiritual heart.
Do you observe the Biblical Feast Days? I am not sure if you can just do that spiritually. I think you actually have to do something.
 
T

Trail-of-Truth

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Do you observe the Biblical Feast Days? I am not sure if you can just do that spiritually. I think you actually have to do something.
Yes, it's called 'church potluck'. The bible calls it 'love feasts', and it's about fellowship.
 
Jul 1, 2016
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Yes, it's called 'church potluck'. The bible calls it 'love feasts', and it's about fellowship.
No, no. God has His own appointed times, in Leviticus 23. You know, like Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost, etc.
Do you observe these at your fellowship?
 
T

Trail-of-Truth

Guest
No, no. God has His own appointed times, in Leviticus 23. You know, like Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost, etc.
Do you observe these at your fellowship?
Of course you will find Old Testament laws in Old Testament verses. We are no longer under the Old Testament, so that does not apply to us.
 
Jul 1, 2016
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Of course you will find Old Testament laws in Old Testament verses. We are no longer under the Old Testament, so that does not apply to us.
Good luck with that. God says in Leviticus 23, "These are MY Feasts" (appointed times). But the church want to keep Sunday, Easter & Christmas. Do you see a problem here?
By the way, Shaul says that the Scriptures are good for instruction, for correction, for doctrine, for reproof.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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Yes you do and I wasn't citing anything I was saying that is impossible to keep the sabbath as it was intended because man has tweaked it. where you get me condemning another brother is your own thoughts not mine.
Like I said, if you got a problem it isn't with me, and if your problem is with me then you got a problem.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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Of course you will find Old Testament laws in Old Testament verses. We are no longer under the Old Testament, so that does not apply to us.
So how do all men sin and fall short of the glory of God if sin is transgression of the law. So if you aren't under the law why do you claim all men sin?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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love is the fulfillment of the law
(Romans 13:10)

so love fulfills this commandment.
how?

hey Mik'ael -- so what about this?

if you were a man from some far-flung Gentile country, and did not have the law of Moses -- because it had never been given to you in the first place, but was for another people under a different covenant -- but you had only this: that the gospel of Jesus Christ was preached to you, and you heard it and believed, and were immediately sealed by the Holy Spirit, who began a work in you, regenerating your heart and renewing your mind so that you grew in knowledge of the One true God -- so that you had love for Him, and for all your fellow men . .

. . how would the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] commandment be fulfilled in you, having only the spirit of the law in your heart: having the love of God, but not having the written command -- how does this love lead you to perfectly obey the substance of this letter?

it is easy to see how love alone would lead a man to obey all the other 9. but understanding how the ure love of God in a man's heart also fulfills the sabbath command is i think very enlightening.

think on this please, and answer me when you have prayed and learned what it means.

thanks
 
J

jcha

Guest
Does anyone wear linen with wool?....breaking the law

Does anyone bring animal sacrifices? - breaking the law

There are 613 of them. Break one - you break the law. The law is not of faith. The righteous shall live by faith in Christ and His finished work for salvation. Anything else is a perversion of the gospel.

Paul had Judaizers come in after he preached the pure gospel to the Galatians and he said to them " Who has bewitched you?"

And then he said this.

Galatians 3:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] This is the only thing I want to find out from you:
did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

I think disciplemike needs to go check out the thread called "Dear Bibleguy"...the law keepers are being refuted there.
"THERE IS 613 of them" = man-made and not found anywhere in the Bible.

"Break one, you break them all" = Jesus could not keep laws that were for women only, Levites only, farmers only, and neither do we apply "laws/instruction" that does not apply. Ie No Temple, no levites serving, no governing body in the promised land, however,

Jesus did keep all the "Forever" commandments, didn't He?

Quoted from The Refiners Fire.org:

YHWH (Yahweh) gave us many rules/commands/"laws" that can be found scattered throughout the Torah, the first five Books of the Bible, which contains His Divine Instructions in Righteousness. We must understand, however, that the "numbering" of the original commandments was done by man, not by YHWH (Yahweh) Himself, which means there is no reason to worry about trying to keep "all 613 commands." Not to mention that most of those "613" commands were directed at the cohens (priests) of the day; some were only for men; some only for women, and some were only for a certain timeframe.
But some were meant to last FOREVER - and those are the ones that believers must pay attention to.
While YHWH eventually recorded ten in stone, we must remember, these ten are just part of the larger picture taken from YHWH's Torah which He said would stand forever. Many Christians balk at this idea because they are under the erroneous impression that they don't even have to bother even keeping the TEN Commandments anymore (let alone the "613"); but, rather, just two - and they cite the following as "proof":
Matthew 22: 36. "Teacher, which Commandment in Torah is the greatest?" 37. And Y'shua said to him, that "You should love Master YHWH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might and with all your mind." 38. This is the first and the greatest Commandment. 39. And the second is like it. That "You should love your neighbor as yourself." 40. On these two commandments hang Torah and the prophets. (Aramaic English New Testament)
We would ask those who insist they only need to keep two commandments to please re-read verse 40 with the help of the Ruach haKodesh (Holy Spirit). Does verse 40 imply that all of God's original instructions have been done away with? NO! The Torah and the Prophets HANG/ARE DEPENDENT ON those two commands! There's more to it than just "loving God and loving your neighbor!

The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20 and 34 - which included several "forever" commandments). We need to pay attention to ALL of YHWH's Torah; but - as mentioned above - "we" cannot possibly "do" all those commands. So we DO what we can!


The Seventh Day Sabbath (Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:16-17; Leviticus 23:3). God told us that the Sabbath would forever be a signbetween Him and the children of Israel (which includes every believer, grafted-in or otherwise!) In the end times (which we are in now) the seventh day Sabbath will distinguish TRUE believers from the "lukewarm" - especially when the Antichrist starts putting pressure on people to conform to his rules:
Exodus 31: 13 "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and youthroughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you."
Exodus 31: 16 "Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.'"

The Biblical feasts are outlined in Leviticus 23 which states after each feast: "it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations."


Keeping kosher. Yes, eating "clean" foods was a "forever" commandment. You can search the Bible through, but you will never see that command negated. Kosher Law always was, and still is, YHWH's Law. He never said pork, shellfish, etc. were food! People called it food in rebellion against God. The NT passages (which Christians like to use as proof that appear to suggest we can eat whatever we want) deal with animals God gave us to eat and whether they are ceremonially clean and can be eaten at that time. Even in Peter's vision (Acts 11), Peter would never have eaten the kosher animals that had been in contact with treife (non-kosher) animals. Peter's vision was to show that the kosher animals were no longer considered unclean because they were among the treife. This was illustrating that the Gentiles were now to be accepted! The rest of the passage in Acts 11 shows that this is the correct interpretation and what the vision was all about....
For a complete outline, See Deuteronomy 14:1-21 and Leviticus 11.


Wearing tzit-zit, the "tassels" on the four corners of our garments. Today, we don't have "four-cornered" garments, but we can loop them through our belt loops or wear special shirts that have tzit-tzit attached. (Google tzit-tzit for more info.) Please see our articles ontzit-tzits and tallits.
Numbers 15: 37 ADONAI said to Moshe, 38 "Speak to the people of Isra'el (this includes women!), instructing them to make, through all their generations, tzitziyot on the corners of their garments, and to put with the tzitzit on each corner a blue thread. 39 It is to be a tzitzit for you to look at and thereby remember all of ADONAI's mitzvot and obey them, so that you won't go around wherever your own heart and eyes lead you to prostitute yourselves; 40 but it will help you remember and obey all my mitzvot and be holy for your God. 41 I am ADONAI your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt in order to be your God. I am ADONAI your God."


Christians insist that "Jesus abolished the law" and that all one has to do today is to "believe in Jesus." Hardly anyone seems to realize that, what Yeshua attempted to "do away with" was not the Father's divine instructions, but the rabbinical, man-made "stuff". Even Paul verified this when he said: Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. (Romans 3:31). You will find Yahweh's original commandments sprinkled throughout Torah in places like Genesis 26:2-5; Exodus 15:25-27, 16, 20:6; Leviticus 22, 26, 27; Numbers 15 and 36; and Deuteronomy 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 26, 27, 28, 30, 31.
God said His Torah would stand FOREVER (2 Chronicles 7:14-22), and that's why we are to do our best to try to discern His "do's" and "don't's" because they are all for good reason. Most Christians seem to think Torah was abolished, which is a major misunderstanding because Torah is God's blueprint for moral behavior! Why would that have been abolished on the cross?
Matthew 5: 17 Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah - not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot (words/commands) and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P'rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Has everything happened that must happen? Have heaven and earth passed away yet? Yeshua even said He didn't come to abolish but to complete/fulfill. That did not mean "put an end to"...
Rev. 12:17 - And the dragon was enraged against the woman; and he went to make war upon the remnant of her seed who keep the Commandments of Elohim and have the testimony of Y'shua. (AENT)
Rev. 14:12 - Here is the patience of the Set Apart believers who keep the commandments of Elohim, and the faith of Y'shua. (AENT)
Some versions use "saint" as opposed to "God's people." But who exactly is a "saint"? Certainly not someone who refuses to be Torah observant! Without Torah we have no blueprint for moral, godly behavior (as is amply evident in our fallen world, including throughout the various churches.) Who are those who obey God's commandments? They are the Jews and Messianic believers. Who are those who hold to the testimony of Yeshua and remain faithful to Him? The Messianic Believers! Jews don't believe in Yeshua and Christians don't believe in being Torah observant; and therefore Christians don't adhere to the commandments/Torah - which include the keeping of the Seventh Day Sabbath and the seven feasts, and eating only "clean" foods. Both Jews and Christians are missing "the rest of the story"....
An interesting aside: Most bible versions will say: 14 How blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they have the right to eat from the Tree of Life and go through the gates into the city!
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they who do His (Master YHWH's) Mitzvot, that they may have a right to the tree of life and may enter through the gates into the city. (AENT)
Footnote: Very important! Y'shua is talking, so these are YHWH's Mitzvot (Commandments), not his. This is also the original reading in Revelation. The "wash your robes" line was substituted later, as a way to downplay the obvious pro-Torah message at the end of the NT. This is, in effect, the last speech Y'shua gives to the world. There are actually two ancient Greek witnesses that are split on the matter, and one may have arisen as a scribal error to the other between poiountes tas entolas (do his commandments) and plunontes tas stolas (wash their robes)."(end quote)
 
T

Trail-of-Truth

Guest
Good luck with that. God says in Leviticus 23, "These are MY Feasts" (appointed times). But the church want to keep Sunday, Easter & Christmas. Do you see a problem here?
By the way, Shaul says that the Scriptures are good for instruction, for correction, for doctrine, for reproof.
The last day of the week commemorated a finished creation (physicality). The first day of the week commemorates a finished redemption (spirituality). Now the bible says the physical law was only a shadow of the spiritual law- which is found in Christ. (Colossians 2:16,17). What He's saying here is don't let someone who practices things such as the Sabbath day judge you, because these were a shadow of the realities to come. The reality is spirituality- not physicality. For example, if you truly love God and your neighbor, you will not in that moment murder them or steal from them. Therefore, the law can be kept through spiritual means (love) instead of physical lists (the written code).
 
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Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:But the seventh day
[is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:8-11 (KJV)
The Bible says love works no ill towards their neighbor;therefore love is the fulfilling of the law,and the 2 greatest commandments is love God,and love people,and Paul said,we do not void out the law,because of faith,but we establish the law,and the law is spiritual,and holy,and just,and good,which is the moral laws,laws of love.

Which the ten commandments are laws of love towards God,and people,so they would be in effect.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

But Jesus took away the physical ordinances of Israel,nailing them to His cross,because they were contrary to us,which means they have no bearing on us to have a spiritual relationship with God;therefore led no man judge you concerning the sabbath days.

But if the sabbath day is part of the ten commandments,and under the first 4 commandments which are aimed at loving God,and obeying Him,how can we keep the sabbath day,the fourth commandment,if Jesus took them out of the way,and said do not keep them,for they have no bearing on you for salvation.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

It is now a spiritual rest by the Holy Spirit,and that is our sabbath,for the sabbath was meant for rest,and since it is spiritual in the New Testament,then it is a spiritual rest,observing that spiritual sabbath,but God said yet they would not hear.

At least that is what it seems since Jesus said that the physical sabbath does no good in our salvation,and God wants us to observe rest,the sabbath,so it cannot be physical,so it must be spiritual.

Physical rest in the Old Testament,celebrating the making of this earth,and physical ordinances given to Israel.

Spiritual rest in the New Testament,celebrating the making of the new earth,that Jesus said He went away to prepare for the saints,and physical ordinances taken away,and spiritual laws only apply,which love is the fulfilling of the law.
 
Jul 1, 2016
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hey Mik'ael -- so what about this?

if you were a man from some far-flung Gentile country, and did not have the law of Moses -- because it had never been given to you in the first place, but was for another people under a different covenant -- but you had only this: that the gospel of Jesus Christ was preached to you, and you heard it and believed, and were immediately sealed by the Holy Spirit, who began a work in you, regenerating your heart and renewing your mind so that you grew in knowledge of the One true God -- so that you had love for Him, and for all your fellow men . .

. . how would the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] commandment be fulfilled in you, having only the spirit of the law in your heart: having the love of God, but not having the written command -- how does this love lead you to perfectly obey the substance of this letter?

it is easy to see how love alone would lead a man to obey all the other 9. but understanding how the ure love of God in a man's heart also fulfills the sabbath command is i think very enlightening.

think on this please, and answer me when you have prayed and learned what it means.

thanks
well now, I am not yet dealing with the guy on the island who does not have a Bible. I am concerned about lazy Christians who won't study the one they have.
 
Jul 1, 2016
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The Bible says love works no ill towards their neighbor;therefore love is the fulfilling of the law,and the 2 greatest commandments is love God,and love people,and Paul said,we do not void out the law,because of faith,but we establish the law,and the law is spiritual,and holy,and just,and good,which is the moral laws,laws of love.

Which the ten commandments are laws of love towards God,and people,so they would be in effect.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

But Jesus took away the physical ordinances of Israel,nailing them to His cross,because they were contrary to us,which means they have no bearing on us to have a spiritual relationship with God;therefore led no man judge you concerning the sabbath days.

But if the sabbath day is part of the ten commandments,and under the first 4 commandments which are aimed at loving God,and obeying Him,how can we keep the sabbath day,the fourth commandment,if Jesus took them out of the way,and said do not keep them,for they have no bearing on you for salvation.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

It is now a spiritual rest by the Holy Spirit,and that is our sabbath,for the sabbath was meant for rest,and since it is spiritual in the New Testament,then it is a spiritual rest,observing that spiritual sabbath,but God said yet they would not hear.

At least that is what it seems since Jesus said that the physical sabbath does no good in our salvation,and God wants us to observe rest,the sabbath,so it cannot be physical,so it must be spiritual.

Physical rest in the Old Testament,celebrating the making of this earth,and physical ordinances given to Israel.

Spiritual rest in the New Testament,celebrating the making of the new earth,that Jesus said He went away to prepare for the saints,and physical ordinances taken away,and spiritual laws only apply,which love is the fulfilling of the law.
Again, this is a contradiction. The Messiah loves His Father. He said that He came to do His Father's will. He even teaches us to pray, Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.

Now then, do you really believe He nailed His Father's Law to the cross? Here in the south, we call that a big ole lie.
 
Sep 6, 2014
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Romans 7 is only speaking of one specific law - the law of marriage.
Romans 7:1-4 uses marriage as an analogy to faith in Christ (second husband) and law (deceased first husband) to bring to our understanding that we are released from the law and married to Christ through faith. Just as a woman is released from her obligation and vows to her first husband if he dies. See verses 4-6.

1
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Galatians 3:19-25

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.