Can we or can we not lose our salvation?

PeterJens · Jul 3, 2016

We are sinners every time we commit sin. It is what the word sinner means, someone who has
commited sin. Now your group claims though you sin, you are not sinners. I call that basic stupidity
and denial of reality.

If you want to stop being a sinner, stop sinning, and be washed by the blood of Jesus, through
repentance, confession and faith in the cross. But you deny these principles within Hyper grace
which is why it is a different faith.

gb9 · Jul 3, 2016

PeterJens said:

yes, just like denying the Biblical definition of sin is heresy. which you have been doing for 2 days now.

FlSnookman7 · Jul 3, 2016

PeterJens said:

As usual you can only answer with name calling and attacks as the catholic church is in no way shape or form biblical. I do understand that since you place your faith in a church and not the Word of God you have no other recourse. I pray your eyes will one day be opened to the truth that is Jesus Christ and the gospel He gave paul. Again, I am not trying to anger or slur you in any way, as a saved man who was once also deceived by the catholic church I feel no ill will towards you.

gb9 · Jul 3, 2016

PeterJens said:

o.k, just stop sinning. wow, that was easy why did someone not think about that 2500 years ago. so, according to that " logic" it was only necessary for Christ to atone for sin up to the moment of us accepting Him as Savior, then after we never do anything wrong again. wow peter you certainly think highly of yourself. guess you really are perfect. NOT!!!

KenAllan · Jul 3, 2016

Again PeterJens you do not understand Salvation.

There is a BIG flaw in your Theology!

Ephesians 2:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith

We have been Saved BY the Grace of God. Its by God's Grace we have received Salvation. We did not receive Salvation by not sinning. How can we lose our Salvation by sinning if we have Received Salvation by Grace from God???????

Sinning against the Holy Spirit CANNOT take Salvation away from us.

Show us where in the Scriptures does God say we received Salvation by not sinning!

Are you so blind that you cannot see the Truth?

Trying to be Good is a Catholic Doctrine. Losing Salvation is a Catholic Doctrine. Both Doctrines are false. This is because most Catholics have never accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Why you ask? Because most Catholics were Baptized as a Baby, they believe Salvation is received by Baptism. Therefore they feel no need to accept Jesus.

Wake up PeterJens, what you are teaching is false. We cannot lose our Salvation.

Chester · Jul 3, 2016

KenAllan said:

If you believe that it is impossible to lose salvation, that is OK - I am not here to try to persuade you otherwise.

I will point out, though, that your some of your rhetoric is unfair and untrue and makes little sense.

(1) Losing salvation is not just a "Catholic" doctrine. John Wesley and the Methodists, the Anabaptists, most Pentecostals, and some Baptists and others as well hold that salvation can be lost.

(2) You say, "We did not receive Salvation by not sinning. How can we lose our Salvation by sinning . . ." As I have before pointed out on this forum, it is fruitless and folly to try to use a loaded rhetorical question to make a point. You have to have clear proof for a statement, you can't just say: "I did not get this job by not stealing from the boss. How can I lose the job by stealing from the boss?" Now, of course my statement and rhetorical question is stupid, but the reasoning behind the one you gave is just as unclear. If you look carefully, the statement I made and the one you made have exactly the same structure. Now I don't believe either that salvation is lost because of a person sinning, but your reasoning is not logical.

(3) If you want to make blunt 100% statements that what you believe is true and others is false: you may do that: I am probably not going to stop you. But I have often found that the louder a person shouts and the harder the preacher pounds the pulpit, very often it is hiding a weak argument or point.

For myself, I believe a person is saved by grace through faith, and a person is kept saved by grace through faith, and that "grace through faith" will then allow God to become the author of works in a person's life (we are His workmanship.).

willfollowsGod · Jul 3, 2016

No, we cannot lose our salvation since it is a free gift that comes from God which we cannot earn through works, since if that were the case there would be no need for a Savior whose name is Jesus. Those who know Christ are the fourth soil in the Parable of the Sower. Also, working out is an exercise term, especially involving the Games or the Olympics that Paul talks about in his letters using sports metaphors. For example, when you work out, the muscles you use become stronger upon use. So when you continue to follow Christ despite sinning and absolutely hating to sin (excluding your flesh which loves when you do it), reading His Word, spending time in prayer with Him, and telling people how to know Him, you get stronger spiritually. I find when I don't pray, the extra protection I have from God against Satan is not present and that is when Satan tries to bring you down. All you need to do is follow Christ and through following Him you will love your neighbor as yourself (that means you can say that they are sinning in a specific way, since you are not supposed to say it in a judgmental manner, but to lovingly wake the person up, like Nathan the prophet did to David using a story, John the Baptist calling out Herod who had Herodias, who was his brother's wife, Jesus calling out that the Pharisees that were doing wrong and did not know God, Samuel calling out Saul for his disobedience against God, etc. God bless.

PeterJens · Jul 3, 2016

gb9 said:

You finally declare your position openly. Jesus said to people "sin no more". Jesus is not lying
or talking about the impossible. What we are talking about is a goal that takes time, the
stripping away of this world from the soul of sinner.

This is the dream of young people who have not been beaten up so badly they have forgotton
what innocense actually is. So many old cynical nit picky believers who find so many faults
they fill their day with guilt and condemnation and call this spirituality. Really and that is what
you read with Gods heros...no chance. I suggest you get to study Davids life, a man after
Gods heart, and you square view of God will change 100%
a sinner

Grace777x70 · Jul 3, 2016

There are 2 aspects to grace. The very first thing that Jesus does with the woman caught in adultery is that He gets rid of her accusers - the religious Pharisees that wanted to condemn her because the "bible" said so in the Old Covenant...she was to be stoned. ( the law condemns us )

Jesus was the only one qualified to condemn her but He didn't.

1) acceptance grace - which has nothing to do with our behavior - as seen with the woman caught in adultery. Our Lord beautifully says " I do not condemn you".

It is in knowing you are not condemned that releases the other aspect of grace.

2) now, go and sin no more - this is empowering grace.

Empowering grace enables you to be who the Father sees you are in Christ now because you are a new creation in Him.

The religious mindset says to the woman caught in adultery - 'Do not sin and we will not condemn you."

The grace of God and the blood of Jesus speaks of better things in this New Covenant of grace!

"Knowing" that we are not condemned in Christ "releases" the life of the empowering grace to transform us. It's all about Christ! It's His fruit being manifested in us!

Acceptance grace which is not based on our behavior needs to be cemented in our hearts before empowering grace is able to be manifested.

What believers in a self-effort/self-performance D.I.Y. holiness/righteousness based mindset and the self-appointed "fruit inspectors" have a very hard time with is the "acceptance grace" part...this just drives them nuts...and I understand why..it is scandalous and it "conflicts" with their religious man-made traditions.

gb9 · Jul 3, 2016

PeterJens said:

well of course our goal as believers is to not sin. I told you this yesterday. but we fall short of that goal. now, if you truly think you never sin, you are just wrong.

I am just honest peter. I have no problem admitting that I am not perfect and need a savior because I know I cannot ever be good enough to get to Heaven on my own merit. can you admit this??

KenAllan · Jul 3, 2016

Its not just OK if the Truth is we cannot lose our Salvation.

Its not just OK to teach we continually have to work at keeping our Salvation.

Again, we have received Salvation FROM God by His Grace.

Ephesians 2:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith

Here Chester is totally CLEAR Proof that Salvation is by Grace from God. What more proof do you need? Or could it be you really do not believe what God says in the Scriptures? Who are you to call God a liar? Why do you teach maintaining one's Salvation by anything we do?

Repeat this over and over again, "For by grace I have been saved". AGAIN!

Maybe if you repeat this enough times it just might sink in we are Saved by the Grace of God and not by anything else.

Now, does this mean we can sin all we want? No. It does not. We are judge by our deeds, not by our sins.

PeterJens · Jul 4, 2016

gb9 said:

Being obtuse is simply not opening yourself honestly to the point.

I have never claimed I never sin. What we claim as a group of faithful believers following Christ,
that sin destroys the soul and our communion with Christ and love builds us up.

So the walk is blameless and righteous. So the honest question has always been, what does
it mean to be holy, to have no guile, to walk as Jesus walked.

When professing christians claim morality just condemns them, the sermon on the mount was
spoken to show how bad a sinner people are, this is not the Holy Spirit speaking.

Mature christians, in their walk after decades of faith, yet they say I sin daily, hourly, this is
not what Paul writes or the apostles about their lives.

So under a guise of being christians, it is we are evil doers who need Christ always.

When Jesus says many will come to me saying "Lord, Lord. We did healings in your name, cast
out demons in your name. Jesus says I never knew you, you evil doers."

This is you. You say you cannot stop sinning, and openly confess this failure. Your theology
says this is the life of a believer. You hold to spiritual miracles as your badge of authority,
which is what Jesus says is meaningless. Jesus emphasis was a criticism of people who failed
to follow Jesus's words in the sermon on the mount were building their house upon the sand.

It does not get simpler than this.

PeterJens · Jul 4, 2016

gb9 said:

The question is simple.

Does Jesus expect us, give us the hope, to walk in Christ is to reach the point of
a blameless loving walk? My answer is yes.

What Jesus in essence is saying you need to be transformed by obedience and walking.
You will never arrive unless you follow. You cannot do it yourself, it is becoming from being.

And what you leave behind is something you once were but are no more.

As soon as you say I am here that is ok, Jesus has finished His good work, I am justified, you
have just given up. What is important is the direction of travel, rather than arriving.

So if you say, the walk is just standing still, you have destroyed the power of God in
someones life. So subtle is the work of the enemy to freeze discipleship, to stop the power
of the word speaking to the heart, to take away hope, and rest them where they are.

But so many have fallen for this stupifying deception.

PeterJens · Jul 4, 2016

In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
Matt 5:16

The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light.
Matt 6:22

See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness.
Luke 11:35

Now it sounds to me that people expect darkness within them and are prepared
to do nothing about, but just say, you over there, you have darkness within you
to so I am ok, that is how things are, just give up hope of having light or being
light, that is just hypocracy.

This is the faith of the pharisees except they denied they had failed inside, at
least that is some progress, empty souls.

Real progress would be bringing light within and glorying in Jesus's love and cleansing

But hey, if the cleansing has never been done, how can one claim to know the Lord
at all.

gb9 · Jul 4, 2016

all three post above have some great points, but are non-responsive to my question: are you good enough to get into the Kingdom on your own merit.

you are deceived in these points right here peter: you either sin or you don't. there is no " sin categories, big sin little sin" these are religious lies. you say you walk blamelessly but you still sin??? then you do not walk blamelessly. this is religious double-talk.

gb9 · Jul 4, 2016

peter, I think you have a heart for God, but are confused about some things. you do not have to be perfect in order for God to love and accept you. you are saved by belief, not works. accept that fact that God loves you, accepts you, and go do the good works that He wants you to do, quit worrying about being " good enough". because all of our goodness combined would fall short of being enough.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jul 4, 2016

gb9 said:

There actually are differences. All unrighteousness is sin, but there is sin unto death and there is sin that another brother can pray for and it will be forgiven. SO the religious lie is that all sin is the same.

gb9 · Jul 4, 2016

the Sermon on the Mount is the gold standard that we should all strive for every day. but we will fall short of this standard at times. this is reality. anyone ( peter) who thinks we can live up to this every hour of every day is grossly self-deceived.

Grace777x70 · Jul 4, 2016

All sin brings forth death in one form or other. So, Christians that live in slander and malice towards others and think that this behavior is ok - are just like those Christians living the homosexual lifestyle and say that it's ok for me to do this because we are under grace.

Both the Christian that lives in malice and slander and the homosexual living lifestyle bring death and are in effect in the same boat.

The religious one ( usually the one full of malice and slander ) that still goes to church think that they are ok because of their other "works" they do to maintain their righteousness.

In both cases some try to "justify" their behavior as being ok and that what they are doing is not a sin.

gb9 · Jul 4, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

o.k I see what you are saying to a point. but what I was getting at was this: telling a lie or robbing a store are both sins. so for someone who lies to look at the robber and say" well, I am blameless because I do not rob is double-talk. condem the robber for robbing, condem yourself for lying, both of you repent and ask for forgiveness, this is the right way.

Can we or can we not lose our salvation?

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