he Memitic Theory

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Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#1
Perhaps you have seen me mention The Mimetic Theory from time to time.

This recent upheaval in violence and killings has me thinking about it more than usual. This is from https://www.ravenfoundation.org/faqs/ There is much more at the site, and elsewhere online. It is my hope that someone here would have an "Ah Ha" moment while reading this.

An Introduction to Mimetic Theory

Q. Why is mimetic theory important?
A. Mimetic theory is important because it allows us to think clearly and honestly about the greatest threat to human survival: our own violence. It offers the best available analysis of the causes of conflict, the contagion of violence, and the pervasive use of scapegoating by individuals and communities. But its enduring value is found in the guidance it offers for how to end the plague of violence and establish a real and lasting peace.

Q. What is mimetic theory?
A. Mimetic theory explains the role of violence in human culture using imitation as a starting point. “Mimetic” is the Greek word for imitation and René Girard, the man who proposed the theory over 50 years ago, chose to use it because he wanted to suggest something more than exact duplication. This is because our mimeticism is a complex phenomenon. Human imitation is not static but leads to escalation and is the starting point for innovation. Girard’s great insight was that imitation is the source of rivalry and conflict that threatens to destroy communities from within. Because we learn everything through imitation, including what to desire, our shared desires can lead us into conflict. As we compete to possess the object we all want, conflict can lead to violence if the object cannot be shared, or more likely, if we refuse to share it with our rivals.

Girard believes that early in human evolution, we learned to control internal conflict by projecting our violence outside the community onto a scapegoat. It was so effective that we have continued to use scapegoating to control violence ever since. The successful use of a scapegoat depends on the community’s belief that they have found the cause and cure of their troubles in this “enemy”. Once the enemy is destroyed or expelled, a community does experience a sense of relief and calm is restored. But the calm is temporary since the scapegoat was not really the cause or the cure of the conflict that led to his expulsion. When imitation leads once again to internal conflict which inevitably escalates into violence, human communities will find another scapegoat and repeat the process all over again.

By reading ancient myths Girard realized that ancient sacrificial religions originated in a community’s attempt to ritualize the scapegoating cure. Prohibitions forbade the mimetic envy and rivalry that lead to conflict; ritual sacrifices recreated the expulsion or death of the scapegoat. By reading the Bible, Girard realized that the Judeo-Christian tradition reveals the innocence of the scapegoat and so renders ancient religion ineffective. The last 2,000 years is witness to humanity’s attempt to find non-sacrificial ways to control our rivalry and conflict. Christian apocalyptic literature predicts our failure to do so. Finding ways to form unity and ease conflict without the use of scapegoats is thus the key to establishing a real and lasting peace.
 
M

Miri

Guest
#2
Bit of a problem, I don't believe in evolution and the article seems to be based
around the concept that evolution exists.

Its true that "birds of a feather flock together" we all want to be accepted,
understood, feel valued etc. So it's natural to want to be with people who think and
feel like you, have the same values as you and the same goals etc. Then there is
language, it's natural to feel more comfortable and confident among people who
speak the same language as you.

To some extent it is played out daily on here with people who are on "the same side"
debating with people "on the other side" and the likes system reinforces that.

But in Jesus we should be able to feel of value, feel accepted, feel we have a purpose etc
outside of the purposes, goals and approvals of men.

I meet people daily who buck the trend both Christians and non Christians.
People who have minds of their own, I think that also becomes more apparent with age
as you learn to use your own mind.

We also should not neglect the plans and scenes of Satan in what appears to be
organised violence. I suspect this is a far bigger problem than the evolved mimetic
theory.

Then there are the leaders of nations, of communities, of religions etc.
If you are told believe this or die, then most will believe, if you are told fight and run
them out of town or you will be considered an outcast and be killed. Then most will fight.

That's not evolved mimicry, that is coercement. There is plenty of that in the world
past and present. In fact it probably accounts for most atrocities. To buck the trend can
be deadly at times that's not evolved mimicry that is fear for ones life, control to the
extreme.

:)
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
8,768
838
113
#3
Rene Girard is a genius.
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#4
Bit of a problem, I don't believe in evolution and the article seems to be based
around the concept that evolution exists.

Its true that "birds of a feather flock together" we all want to be accepted,
understood, feel valued etc. So it's natural to want to be with people who think and
feel like you, have the same values as you and the same goals etc. Then there is
language, it's natural to feel more comfortable and confident among people who
speak the same language as you.

To some extent it is played out daily on here with people who are on "the same side"
debating with people "on the other side" and the likes system reinforces that.

But in Jesus we should be able to feel of value, feel accepted, feel we have a purpose etc
outside of the purposes, goals and approvals of men.

I meet people daily who buck the trend both Christians and non Christians.
People who have minds of their own, I think that also becomes more apparent with age
as you learn to use your own mind.

We also should not neglect the plans and scenes of Satan in what appears to be
organised violence. I suspect this is a far bigger problem than the evolved mimetic
theory.


Then there are the leaders of nations, of communities, of religions etc.
If you are told believe this or die, then most will believe, if you are told fight and run
them out of town or you will be considered an outcast and be killed. Then most will fight.

That's not evolved mimicry, that is coercement. There is plenty of that in the world
past and present. In fact it probably accounts for most atrocities. To buck the trend can
be deadly at times that's not evolved mimicry that is fear for ones life, control to the
extreme.

:)
Evolution?????????????????????????????????? It's not even a part of this.

What I have bolded IS Mimetic Theory. It existed from the very beginning.
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
8,768
838
113
#6
Yes, I believe he was.
Oh my gosh. I did not realize he died this past November. The world lost one of its most classically brilliant minds. They do not make men like him anymore. I would deign to say he didn't belong in our century, but God let us have him anyway.

It may not be a theologically sound sentiment, but blessings upon you, Rene. May angels sing thee to thy rest.
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
8,768
838
113
#7
Also, I would argue that Darwinian evolution is not essential to Mimetic theory.

In fact Girard's formulations clash with many hard-core Darwinians as he views primordial man as essentially the same as modern man (because we are still primordial only we have more history/folklore).
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
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#8
Also, I would argue that Darwinian evolution is not essential to Mimetic theory.

In fact Girard's formulations clash with many hard-core Darwinians as he views primordial man as essentially the same as modern man (because we are still primordial only we have more history/folklore).
Well, I think she read the word, "evolution" used in a sentence, and had a knee-jerk reaction. That is very common on this site. I think many of the people here walk around half-cocked, waiting for a trigger word to shoot at.
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
8,768
838
113
#9
Well, I think she read the word, "evolution" used in a sentence, and had a knee-jerk reaction. That is very common on this site. I think many of the people here walk around half-cocked, waiting for a trigger word to shoot at.
Agreed. I mean she would be right if the entire theory were based in Darwinian principles, but it isn't.
 
L

LaurenTM

Guest
#10
I have not read or studied about that, but did look it up from your comment in the other thread

I think there is truth to this theory and just because something does not have 'I am a Christian' written all over it, does not mean it is not true

(simple words)

Mimetic theory explains the role of violence in human culture using imitation as a starting point.
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#11
Actually the very first sin started with Eve wanting what God had... wanting to be "equal"
with Him............ though I suspect she didn't have an evil ulterior motive.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#12
Evolution?????????????????????????????????? It's not even a part of this.

What I have bolded IS Mimetic Theory. It existed from the very beginning.
Perhaps you have seen me mention The Mimetic Theory from time to time.

This recent upheaval in violence and killings has me thinking about it more than usual. This is from https://www.ravenfoundation.org/faqs/ There is much more at the site, and elsewhere online. It is my hope that someone here would have an "Ah Ha" moment while reading this.

An Introduction to Mimetic Theory

Q. Why is mimetic theory important?
A. Mimetic theory is important because it allows us to think clearly and honestly about the greatest threat to human survival: our own violence. It offers the best available analysis of the causes of conflict, the contagion of violence, and the pervasive use of scapegoating by individuals and communities. But its enduring value is found in the guidance it offers for how to end the plague of violence and establish a real and lasting peace.

Q. What is mimetic theory?
A. Mimetic theory explains the role of violence in human culture using imitation as a starting point. “Mimetic” is the Greek word for imitation and René Girard, the man who proposed the theory over 50 years ago, chose to use it because he wanted to suggest something more than exact duplication. This is because our mimeticism is a complex phenomenon. Human imitation is not static but leads to escalation and is the starting point for innovation. Girard’s great insight was that imitation is the source of rivalry and conflict that threatens to destroy communities from within. Because we learn everything through imitation, including what to desire, our shared desires can lead us into conflict. As we compete to possess the object we all want, conflict can lead to violence if the object cannot be shared, or more likely, if we refuse to share it with our rivals.

Girard believes that early in human evolution, we learned to control internal conflict by projecting our violence outside the community onto a scapegoat. It was so effective that we have continued to use scapegoating to control violence ever since. The successful use of a scapegoat depends on the community’s belief that they have found the cause and cure of their troubles in this “enemy”. Once the enemy is destroyed or expelled, a community does experience a sense of relief and calm is restored. But the calm is temporary since the scapegoat was not really the cause or the cure of the conflict that led to his expulsion. When imitation leads once again to internal conflict which inevitably escalates into violence, human communities will find another scapegoat and repeat the process all over again.

By reading ancient myths Girard realized that ancient sacrificial religions originated in a community’s attempt to ritualize the scapegoating cure. Prohibitions forbade the mimetic envy and rivalry that lead to conflict; ritual sacrifices recreated the expulsion or death of the scapegoat. By reading the Bible, Girard realized that the Judeo-Christian tradition reveals the innocence of the scapegoat and so renders ancient religion ineffective. The last 2,000 years is witness to humanity’s attempt to find non-sacrificial ways to control our rivalry and conflict. Christian apocalyptic literature predicts our failure to do so. Finding ways to form unity and ease conflict without the use of scapegoats is thus the key to establishing a real and lasting peace.
Willie, all I did was bold out where evolution is out-and-out said, and somewhere between said and firmly implied. I see quite a few other inferences to it too.

Girard didn't come at this theory from a Christian perspective. That's for sure. The Christian perspective seems to be a given in the Bible --
Gen. 6:
5 [FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]The [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot] saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.[/FONT]

And the answer to that problem --
Mark 12:
[FONT=&quot]30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”[/FONT]
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#13
Willie, all I did was bold out where evolution is out-and-out said, and somewhere between said and firmly implied. I see quite a few other inferences to it too.

Girard didn't come at this theory from a Christian perspective. That's for sure. The Christian perspective seems to be a given in the Bible --
Gen. 6:
5 [FONT="][/FONT][/COLOR][SIZE=4][COLOR=#000000][FONT="]The [/FONT][FONT="]Lord[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT="] saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT="]intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.[/FONT][/SIZE]

And the answer to that problem --
Mark 12:
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]30 [/B][/FONT]And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”[/FONT]
Well simple then... just give the mayor in Dallas a quick phone call and tell him it's all fixed.
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#14
The Unlikely Christianity of René Girard

Too few people know about René Girard, who passed away on Nov. 4 at 91. He was undoubtedly one of the most important men of the 20th century.

A longtime professor in the U.S., Girard was perhaps destined to leave France, the country of his birth. He had not come up through the ranks of its factory for intellectuals, the tiny and elite École Normale Supérieure. He was of no trendy intellectual school of thought; he was no post-modernist or post-structuralist — until, that is, he ended up quite involuntarily hailed as the founder of one. And he was a Christian.

In the end, his country recognized him, giving him perhaps its highest honor for intellectuals of the humanities, a seat at the Académie Française.

Girard's work, summed up under the heading "mimetic theory," is like a flash of lightning on a dark summer night, suddenly illuminating everything in a strange new light. Girard's thought has had an influence in fields as diverse as literary criticism, history, anthropology, philosophy, theology, psychology, economics, and even Silicon Valley entrepreneurship.

Mimetic theory, which Girard first hit upon teaching French literature and reading the great novelists' psychological analysis of their characters, is the idea that our desires are imitative. In other words, most of the things we want, we want because others want them. Marketing, and really most of our consumer economy, is founded on this premise. The reason you want a Ferrari or an iPhone is because they're highly coveted items.

This is profound because most of us believe our desires to be individual and authentic. But instead, mimetic theory reveals how deep a hold society has on our imaginations and our longings. Most of our desires are really envy and jealousy deep down.

For any honest and thoughtful person, this realization should provide grist for long sessions of soul-searching. Already Girard would have made his mark on history.

But when Girard expanded his work on mimetic theory beyond literature and psychology, that's when the real fun began.

Imagine the theory on a grand scale. What are the social consequences if most people desire the same things? In many societies, especially primitive ones, the answer is conflict. And there arises mimetic desire's murderous twist.

When Girard trained his literary critic's eye on anthropology and religious myth, he found mimetic desire again: in the practice of scapegoating. Most civilizations and cultures have founding myths that revolve in some sense around the death of an outsider at the hands of the community, e.g. the death of one or several gods leading to the creation of the Universe.

In Girard's framework, mimetic desire and scapegoating are connected. Mimetic desire causes conflict. Because most people desire the same things, the conflict becomes endemic, and unless the conflict destroys society first, the society unleashes its violent urges on someone: a scapegoat. After the cathartic violence, the mimetic desire vanishes, and peace is suddenly restored, which, perversely, vindicates the scapegoating — if killing the scapegoat leads to peace, then the scapegoat must really have been the source of the conflict.

Girard finds this scapegoating dynamic at the heart of most myths. Oedipus, King of Thebes, had sex with his mother and killed his father; as a result of this sacrilege, the Greek gods visit a plague on Thebes. Once Oedipus tears out his eyes and leaves the city, the plague is lifted. Romulus and his brother Remus found the city of Rome; Remus breaks the law of the newly-founded city, so his brother kills him.

We find this same destructive dynamic at the heart of social life even today — perhaps especially on social media. And there is only one to defeat it: expose it as a lie.

To Girard, there was only one religious text which did that: the Bible. Girard, who was an atheist until his work on mimetic theory and the Bible led him to see things differently, expected to see the same scapegoating dynamics at work in the Bible as he did in other sacred religious texts and myths. Instead he saw exactly the opposite: the Bible's stories deconstruct and denounce scapegoating.

The Biblical story of Joseph, for example, has Joseph falsely accused of trying to rape his Egyptian master's wife and put in prison. Egypt only avoids famine when Joseph is vindicated. The contrast with the story of Oedipus is striking: In the Oedipus story, Oedipus really did commit incest and patricide, and it was only by effectively killing him — maiming him and driving him into exile — that order could be restored. The Joseph story is the exact opposite: The Biblical narrative insists on Joseph's innocence and the land can only prosper once the truth is accepted.

Many Biblical stories revolve around this deconstruction and denunciation of scapegoating, but they culminate, Girard found, in the story of Jesus. After all, he is the ultimate scapegoat, condemned by all rightful authorities. But the Cross exposes scapegoating as a lie and thereby, if it is heeded, empties it of its power.

In an age when so many people proclaim the Bible and Christianity to be irrelevant to the 21st century, only a quick scan of the headlines will show how truly relevant this denunciation of scapegoating remains.

And how relevant is Girard's thought. For two thousands years after Christ, we still haven't gotten rid of mimetic desire, and we still haven't completely gotten rid of scapegoating.

Jesus had come, he said, and Girard used the line as the title of one of his books, to reveal "things hidden since the foundation of the world." We may still be wicked, but at least we're no longer blind. And in a small part, this is also thanks to René Girard.

The Week magazine.
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
8,768
838
113
#15
The Unlikely Christianity of René Girard

Too few people know about René Girard, who passed away on Nov. 4 at 91. He was undoubtedly one of the most important men of the 20th century.

A longtime professor in the U.S., Girard was perhaps destined to leave France, the country of his birth. He had not come up through the ranks of its factory for intellectuals, the tiny and elite École Normale Supérieure. He was of no trendy intellectual school of thought; he was no post-modernist or post-structuralist — until, that is, he ended up quite involuntarily hailed as the founder of one. And he was a Christian.

In the end, his country recognized him, giving him perhaps its highest honor for intellectuals of the humanities, a seat at the Académie Française.

Girard's work, summed up under the heading "mimetic theory," is like a flash of lightning on a dark summer night, suddenly illuminating everything in a strange new light. Girard's thought has had an influence in fields as diverse as literary criticism, history, anthropology, philosophy, theology, psychology, economics, and even Silicon Valley entrepreneurship.

Mimetic theory, which Girard first hit upon teaching French literature and reading the great novelists' psychological analysis of their characters, is the idea that our desires are imitative. In other words, most of the things we want, we want because others want them. Marketing, and really most of our consumer economy, is founded on this premise. The reason you want a Ferrari or an iPhone is because they're highly coveted items.

This is profound because most of us believe our desires to be individual and authentic. But instead, mimetic theory reveals how deep a hold society has on our imaginations and our longings. Most of our desires are really envy and jealousy deep down.

For any honest and thoughtful person, this realization should provide grist for long sessions of soul-searching. Already Girard would have made his mark on history.

But when Girard expanded his work on mimetic theory beyond literature and psychology, that's when the real fun began.

Imagine the theory on a grand scale. What are the social consequences if most people desire the same things? In many societies, especially primitive ones, the answer is conflict. And there arises mimetic desire's murderous twist.

When Girard trained his literary critic's eye on anthropology and religious myth, he found mimetic desire again: in the practice of scapegoating. Most civilizations and cultures have founding myths that revolve in some sense around the death of an outsider at the hands of the community, e.g. the death of one or several gods leading to the creation of the Universe.

In Girard's framework, mimetic desire and scapegoating are connected. Mimetic desire causes conflict. Because most people desire the same things, the conflict becomes endemic, and unless the conflict destroys society first, the society unleashes its violent urges on someone: a scapegoat. After the cathartic violence, the mimetic desire vanishes, and peace is suddenly restored, which, perversely, vindicates the scapegoating — if killing the scapegoat leads to peace, then the scapegoat must really have been the source of the conflict.

Girard finds this scapegoating dynamic at the heart of most myths. Oedipus, King of Thebes, had sex with his mother and killed his father; as a result of this sacrilege, the Greek gods visit a plague on Thebes. Once Oedipus tears out his eyes and leaves the city, the plague is lifted. Romulus and his brother Remus found the city of Rome; Remus breaks the law of the newly-founded city, so his brother kills him.

We find this same destructive dynamic at the heart of social life even today — perhaps especially on social media. And there is only one to defeat it: expose it as a lie.

To Girard, there was only one religious text which did that: the Bible. Girard, who was an atheist until his work on mimetic theory and the Bible led him to see things differently, expected to see the same scapegoating dynamics at work in the Bible as he did in other sacred religious texts and myths. Instead he saw exactly the opposite: the Bible's stories deconstruct and denounce scapegoating.

The Biblical story of Joseph, for example, has Joseph falsely accused of trying to rape his Egyptian master's wife and put in prison. Egypt only avoids famine when Joseph is vindicated. The contrast with the story of Oedipus is striking: In the Oedipus story, Oedipus really did commit incest and patricide, and it was only by effectively killing him — maiming him and driving him into exile — that order could be restored. The Joseph story is the exact opposite: The Biblical narrative insists on Joseph's innocence and the land can only prosper once the truth is accepted.

Many Biblical stories revolve around this deconstruction and denunciation of scapegoating, but they culminate, Girard found, in the story of Jesus. After all, he is the ultimate scapegoat, condemned by all rightful authorities. But the Cross exposes scapegoating as a lie and thereby, if it is heeded, empties it of its power.

In an age when so many people proclaim the Bible and Christianity to be irrelevant to the 21st century, only a quick scan of the headlines will show how truly relevant this denunciation of scapegoating remains.

And how relevant is Girard's thought. For two thousands years after Christ, we still haven't gotten rid of mimetic desire, and we still haven't completely gotten rid of scapegoating.

Jesus had come, he said, and Girard used the line as the title of one of his books, to reveal "things hidden since the foundation of the world." We may still be wicked, but at least we're no longer blind. And in a small part, this is also thanks to René Girard.

The Week magazine.
He understood the Grace which condescends.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,784
2,955
113
#16
Evolution?????????????????????????????????? It's not even a part of this.

What I have bolded IS Mimetic Theory. It existed from the very beginning.
Is this what Miri is objecting to? From the OP?

Girard believes that early in human evolution, we learned to control internal conflict by projecting our violence outside the community onto a scapegoat
I spent some time reading about this yesterday. Girard, being French seems to see this in terms of the Catholic Church, not all Christianity. But it does have some interesting merit, if you talk about early in the history of humanity, (as opposed to "human evolution") and how Christianity intervened and made the scapegoat innocent.

I think there is something about the scapegoat in the OT, during the exodus. Here are the verses:

"He shall take the two goats and present them before the LORD at the doorway of the tent of meeting. "Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat. "Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the LORD fell, and make it a sin offering" Leviticus 16:7-10

"The one who released the goat as the scapegoat shall wash his clothes and bathe his body with water; then afterward he shall come into the camp." Lev. 16:26
 
H

HisHolly

Guest
#17
Ecc says there is nothing new under the sun.. No mimetic as he suggested.. when people don't have God they will be a mess.. period.. anything can be counted and tracked..
 
H

HisHolly

Guest
#18
Science, ologies, ect are just natural and practical explanation for our world.. Apart from God it's all incomplete in conclusion..
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
8,768
838
113
#19
Ecc says there is nothing new under the sun.. No mimetic as he suggested.. when people don't have God they will be a mess.. period.. anything can be counted and tracked..
Can't eternal truths be expressed in novel ways, though? Isn't that why Christian intellectuals and pastors write books?
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#20
Ecc says there is nothing new under the sun.. No mimetic as he suggested.. when people don't have God they will be a mess.. period.. anything can be counted and tracked..
René never even hinted this was anything new. He clearly stated that it has been a part of mankind from the beginning. He even relates how the effects of it were clearly seen in the way that Jesus put the reverse spin on it. Please don't fool yourself into thinking that simply because we've read the words on the pages of a small black book for centuries that we truly understood all of it from the first page ever turned hundreds of years ago.

BTW, "Theology" is also an "...ology." Burying our heads in the sand, ostrich-style, refusing to believe anything good can come from outside our limited religious thinking is precisely what they said about Jesus when they scoffed, "Can ANYTHING good come from Nazareth?"