You know I was thinking the other day. If the argument that the KJV has words that are outdated, meaning the meanings of the words have changed some today, wouldn't the same be for the Greek words that always get looked up? Back then, some could've had different meanings too.
Greek
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SteelToedKodiak
Guest
From the little I understand about Greek, it is very granular. There's like 6 words for "Love". Faith is very precise in Greek. This is where context plays a major part imo.
Well, the argument about the KJV words being outdated is also not a very strong one.
Of course we don't write or use thou, thee, hadst, wouldest etc.. much anymore.. but what these words have, is specific context.
For eg.. so we use believe instead of believeth, but the 'eth' on the end of believe often biblically means an ongoing action.
'For God so loved the world that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but hath everlasting life' John 3:16--
The saved spirit of a person continues to believe in Jesus.. being preserved by Him from His sealing of the person's spirit.
And this ongoing use.. is also in harmony with the Greek it is based on in denoting ongoing action.
So.. translators may update words to be more in keeping with modern English.. but what do they do to the meaning of the word?
Is the meaning from the Greek preserved thru the modern English?
As for the Greek-- that is like SteelToedKodiak is saying .. quite specific. It doesn't have so many meanings as English for one word. The sentence structure is more detailed and targeted.
Eg.. we might say.. 'John closed the door'.. but the Greek equivalent if it were English would be more like 'the man that is named John, pushed the rectangular shaped object that is a door to be locked into a closed position'
So if you get a modern translation that just says.. 'John closed the door' -- it's simple.. but missing a lot of specific meaning which may affect other parts of the whole picture when put with it.
So the KJV.. it has those words like believeth.. wouldest.. etc.. because it is more closely linking to specific meanings akin to the original words.
Of course we don't write or use thou, thee, hadst, wouldest etc.. much anymore.. but what these words have, is specific context.
For eg.. so we use believe instead of believeth, but the 'eth' on the end of believe often biblically means an ongoing action.
'For God so loved the world that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but hath everlasting life' John 3:16--
The saved spirit of a person continues to believe in Jesus.. being preserved by Him from His sealing of the person's spirit.
And this ongoing use.. is also in harmony with the Greek it is based on in denoting ongoing action.
So.. translators may update words to be more in keeping with modern English.. but what do they do to the meaning of the word?
Is the meaning from the Greek preserved thru the modern English?
As for the Greek-- that is like SteelToedKodiak is saying .. quite specific. It doesn't have so many meanings as English for one word. The sentence structure is more detailed and targeted.
Eg.. we might say.. 'John closed the door'.. but the Greek equivalent if it were English would be more like 'the man that is named John, pushed the rectangular shaped object that is a door to be locked into a closed position'
So if you get a modern translation that just says.. 'John closed the door' -- it's simple.. but missing a lot of specific meaning which may affect other parts of the whole picture when put with it.
So the KJV.. it has those words like believeth.. wouldest.. etc.. because it is more closely linking to specific meanings akin to the original words.
Well, I only used the KJV to make my point about the possibility it may be same with the ancient greek. Sorry for offending any KJameser's. I hope this topic sticks with greek. If you read KJV only, then good for you! I am not dissing it, truthfully. Sorry.
B
BeyondET
Guest
Wow! So much nonsense about Koine Greek, which is what the New Testament was written in. Where to start?
We know much about the meanings of the Greek in the New Testament because there are so many secular and manuscripts from the early church available. Although occasionally, in the case of hapax legomena, or words that occur only one time, it is a challenge to know what usage would be the correct one. In any case, whether KJV or modern, translators are faced with the same issues.
This includes everything from how to find a balance with syntax and word order in the Greek, and changing into a form of English that is grammatically correct. I have been told it is better to favour a smooth English translation, so the reader can understand what the message is!
While word order in Greek is substantially different in Greek, it does NOT add words that are not there. A door (thura) is not a rectangular shape in the wall! It is "thura." Or sometimes a gate (pulon). Sorry I am on my phone, and it is too difficult to post the Greek letters!
Greek does not have archaic or obscure word like the KJV does! Scholars have codified every word, every nuance and put them together in lexicons. Greek is much more complex than English with noun, pronoun and adjective cases. But that actually makes translating easier, as you know by the endings and the roots exactly where the words fit grammatically in the sentence, with word order not having to be subject/predicate like English.
KJ English, in the other hand, was the most updated version of English spoken 400 years ago. But the English language changed radically, including the meanings of words, losing second person singular, and new slang and vocabulary not found 400 years ago (Think technology)! Matt 6:6 contains words implying Jesus tells us to go into a closet to pray. I've got a walk-in closet now, but years ago, in various apartments I lived in, the closets weren't wide enough to fit a person praying. In fact, Jesus is saying to go into a hidden room and pray in secret. So don't boast about your praying in front of other! Now people in 16th century England knew the closet was a fairly large room. They had wardrobes for clothes, not closets. So that is an example of a word that has changed meaning. Not so in Greek! The word is "tamaon" and that meaning is frozen in time. Because Koine Greek, once spoken by the whole world, is a dead language, not a constantly evolving language like Englush currently is.
I could go on and on about words that have changed meanings since 400 years ago, but I think you get the idea! Meanwhile, the biggest issue modern translators face is conveying the correct nuances and meanings in modern English, that a static Biblical language has!
We know much about the meanings of the Greek in the New Testament because there are so many secular and manuscripts from the early church available. Although occasionally, in the case of hapax legomena, or words that occur only one time, it is a challenge to know what usage would be the correct one. In any case, whether KJV or modern, translators are faced with the same issues.
This includes everything from how to find a balance with syntax and word order in the Greek, and changing into a form of English that is grammatically correct. I have been told it is better to favour a smooth English translation, so the reader can understand what the message is!
While word order in Greek is substantially different in Greek, it does NOT add words that are not there. A door (thura) is not a rectangular shape in the wall! It is "thura." Or sometimes a gate (pulon). Sorry I am on my phone, and it is too difficult to post the Greek letters!
Greek does not have archaic or obscure word like the KJV does! Scholars have codified every word, every nuance and put them together in lexicons. Greek is much more complex than English with noun, pronoun and adjective cases. But that actually makes translating easier, as you know by the endings and the roots exactly where the words fit grammatically in the sentence, with word order not having to be subject/predicate like English.
KJ English, in the other hand, was the most updated version of English spoken 400 years ago. But the English language changed radically, including the meanings of words, losing second person singular, and new slang and vocabulary not found 400 years ago (Think technology)! Matt 6:6 contains words implying Jesus tells us to go into a closet to pray. I've got a walk-in closet now, but years ago, in various apartments I lived in, the closets weren't wide enough to fit a person praying. In fact, Jesus is saying to go into a hidden room and pray in secret. So don't boast about your praying in front of other! Now people in 16th century England knew the closet was a fairly large room. They had wardrobes for clothes, not closets. So that is an example of a word that has changed meaning. Not so in Greek! The word is "tamaon" and that meaning is frozen in time. Because Koine Greek, once spoken by the whole world, is a dead language, not a constantly evolving language like Englush currently is.
I could go on and on about words that have changed meanings since 400 years ago, but I think you get the idea! Meanwhile, the biggest issue modern translators face is conveying the correct nuances and meanings in modern English, that a static Biblical language has!
We know what the words of early Greek mean. Yes the language has evolved and words change but we know what they meant at that time period and that doesn't change. Like if you picked up a book from 1940 and read the word gay, you would know they were talking about happy and not homosexual because that's what it meant in that time period. What changes is how that fixed point of Greek translates into our current tongues as they continue to change.
:happy: indeed
as jacob name changed into israel
as it is written
:read:
Genesis: 32. 21. So went the present over before him: and himself lodged that night in the company. 22. And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, and his eleven sons, and passed over the ford Jabbok. 23. And he took them, and sent them over the brook, and sent over that he had. 24. And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. 31. And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh. 32. Therefore the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day: because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh in the sinew that shrank.
:ty:
godbless us all always
as jacob name changed into israel
as it is written
:read:
Genesis: 32. 21. So went the present over before him: and himself lodged that night in the company. 22. And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, and his eleven sons, and passed over the ford Jabbok. 23. And he took them, and sent them over the brook, and sent over that he had. 24. And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. 31. And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh. 32. Therefore the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day: because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh in the sinew that shrank.
:ty:
godbless us all always
The other aspect is that we can know everything about the Greek and be able to read it but without the Holy Spirit to illuminate the scriptures we can end up like the Pharisees and scribes that "knew" the scriptures but did not know the real meaning behind them - which was Jesus.
We can read scriptures to know the scriptures or read them to see Jesus and what He has done for us in His finished work.
Personally I love to get into the Greek in my studies as it has so many nuances and shades of meaning.
We are just as reliant on the Holy Spirit to reveal Jesus in the scriptures as Mary was reliant on the Holy Spirit to conceive Jesus in her womb.
We can know scriptures but they are just facts without seeing Jesus in them. It's like we know all kinds of facts about Abraham Lincoln but his wife "knew" him.
We also IMO need to be respectful of the gift that the Lord has put in other people and listen to them as the Lord works through them to reveal truth to us.
I read the Greek scholars which have made it their life to study all aspects of the Greek and take into account what they are saying - listening to my spirit within to what the Holy Spirit wants me to consider.
There is a reason that the Lord chose Greek to write the NT. It's a common language back then when the Gospel was being proclaimed.
Just some random thoughts on Greek. ( bottom line - I love it! )
We can read scriptures to know the scriptures or read them to see Jesus and what He has done for us in His finished work.
Personally I love to get into the Greek in my studies as it has so many nuances and shades of meaning.
We are just as reliant on the Holy Spirit to reveal Jesus in the scriptures as Mary was reliant on the Holy Spirit to conceive Jesus in her womb.
We can know scriptures but they are just facts without seeing Jesus in them. It's like we know all kinds of facts about Abraham Lincoln but his wife "knew" him.
We also IMO need to be respectful of the gift that the Lord has put in other people and listen to them as the Lord works through them to reveal truth to us.
I read the Greek scholars which have made it their life to study all aspects of the Greek and take into account what they are saying - listening to my spirit within to what the Holy Spirit wants me to consider.
There is a reason that the Lord chose Greek to write the NT. It's a common language back then when the Gospel was being proclaimed.
Just some random thoughts on Greek. ( bottom line - I love it! )
Here's where you have an opportunity to trust God to preserve His word through many translations across many languages. Who is the Master of tongues apart from God?
Remember who is the master of doubt and deception.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Remember who is the master of doubt and deception.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Ah! I do know a little Greek, so I can't say that phrase anymore - so I just say,- "It's all Hebrew to me"
F
FreeNChrist
Guest
Greek scholars spend lifetimes researching the meaning of bible words by studying ancient documents written in Greek. It's not my cup of tea, but it is fascinating.
People have been studying the Scriptures from the day they were written. People who have learned ancient Greek are going to be able to translate it with a good deal of accuracy, I would think.
Wait.............WHUT?
Are you saying that God has the power to preserve His Word regardless of the translation OR those doing the translations?
Heresy, HERESY I SAY!
(life is full of choices, learn Hebrew and/or Greek, or rely on the Holy Spirit to impart understanding, hmm.......choices, makes me dizzy)
Okay.... I was just illustrating that the Koine Greek has more specific meaning than modern English. Modern English can over simplify or lose some extra context in the translation. I don't know..this may have occured with KJV English also, but I know with words like believeth.. they carry more specific meaning than just believe.
I find it hard to believe that there are words in the Greek language that cannot be expressed in English. So Ive heard. That bothers me. Cannot they come up with a sentence to explain it?
T
TonyJay
Guest
And they do.
The problem is each group of translators may choose a different phrase or term.
This is why difficult to translate passages are rendered so differently in different English translations.